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Long Distance Shooting Discuss tools, techniques, tips and theories of long distance shooting

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  #1  
Old 09-09-2017, 4:33 PM
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Default Proper way to Zero in rifle

What method is best way to zero rifle at let just say 3-400 yards out ?

my current 308 is at zero at 100 yards , I dont consider myself a marksman ..my avg group would be 1 -1.5 moa . I have tried to shoot at 200 yards and group really opens up and got me thinking .. If I wanted to zero my rifle out to 3-400 . and my group are let just say 15-20in wide , what do I have to do or use what methods to accomplish goal ?
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Old 09-09-2017, 4:35 PM
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Start small and work your way back...
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Old 09-09-2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by G38xOC View Post
What method is best way to zero rifle at let just say 3-400 yards out ?

my current 308 is at zero at 100 yards , I dont consider myself a marksman ..my avg group would be 1 -1.5 moa . I have tried to shoot at 200 yards and group really opens up and got me thinking .. If I wanted to zero my rifle out to 3-400 . and my group are let just say 15-20in wide , what do I have to do or use what methods to accomplish goal ?
Let's start with the beginning

What rifle do you shoot ?

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Old 09-09-2017, 5:10 PM
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Let's start with the beginning

What rifle do you shoot ?

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This and also what scope, and ammo?

You want a 100 yard zero. Then your always dialing up from that point. It sounds like you just want to be able to shoot out to 300-400 yards and the term zero your using isn't correct.
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Old 09-09-2017, 6:14 PM
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Let's start with the beginning

What rifle do you shoot ? Its AR308

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Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
This and also what scope, and ammo? Vortex PST FFP 4-14-50 and using handloaded plink round hornady 150gr FMJBT

You want a 100 yard zero. Then your always dialing up from that point. It sounds like you just want to be able to shoot out to 300-400 yards and the term zero your using isn't correct.
All your response got me thinking . If I take my time gradually getting tighter group and moving yards up by little , while using good quality bullets , other important reloading steps , I guess its doable .

whole reason I ask , because I've read people using those 3-400 yards zero and it made sense at longer distance especially if your hold up reticles runs out
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Old 09-09-2017, 6:22 PM
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Well the first thing I'd do is spend the money on match quality and stop using ball ammo. Your getting about the best you can expect from ball ammo right now.

Clean your rifle very well when you switch ammo. It will also take about 20 rounds for your barrel to calibrate to the new ammo. Your next step would be to get into reloading. Then you can tune your ammo to your rifle.

With the PST you have plenty of adjustment in there. You have should have no worries about running out of travel.
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Old 09-09-2017, 6:28 PM
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Reload some hot TSX once they're touching at 100 yds you'll be able to go much further
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Old 09-09-2017, 6:32 PM
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I zero at 100, and shoot a 175 gr BTHP, and shoot head boxes to 350 with no problems. Where you zero isnt the problem, having good data for weather conditions, temp, barametric pressue AND reading the wind is. Unless you zero at 300 and your scope has a zero stop and it doesn't let you apply dope below your zero.

Also, you need to box test your scope to see if it holds zero, then tall target test your scope to get your scope drop percent to apply to your dope.

Also, is you rifle rate at 1 MOA or less?
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Old 09-09-2017, 6:44 PM
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Well the first thing I'd do is spend the money on match quality and stop using ball ammo. Your getting about the best you can expect from ball ammo right now.

Clean your rifle very well when you switch ammo. It will also take about 20 rounds for your barrel to calibrate to the new ammo. Your next step would be to get into reloading. Then you can tune your ammo to your rifle.

With the PST you have plenty of adjustment in there. You have should have no worries about running out of travel.

I'll try that ! thanks
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Old 09-09-2017, 6:46 PM
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Reload some hot TSX once they're touching at 100 yds you'll be able to go much further
I have some barness stuff for hunting and Ill try few other match stuff as well .
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Old 09-09-2017, 6:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
I zero at 100, and shoot a 175 gr BTHP, and shoot head boxes to 350 with no problems. Where you zero isnt the problem, having good data for weather conditions, temp, barametric pressue AND reading the wind is. Unless you zero at 300 and your scope has a zero stop and it doesn't let you apply dope below your zero.

Also, you need to box test your scope to see if it holds zero, then tall target test your scope to get your scope drop percent to apply to your dope.

Also, is you rifle rate at 1 MOA or less?
All of this ^. You need to spend some time working out a good "DOPE" for your rifle with quality ammo.
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Old 09-09-2017, 7:07 PM
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It does make sense . think I was jumping the gun there . I somehow thought some will get their tightest group at 100 and use elevation adjustment according to the velocity drop and make their zero liking yardage .
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Old 09-09-2017, 7:10 PM
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When you work up the dope, it's for THAT ammo, if it's hand load, then you make a lot, constant, all at once. If you buy MATCH, you get a lot with ALL the same batch serial number. When I started and didn't load, I would buy 2-3000 rounds of Black Hills, at a time. Also, shoot off a bag (hard on soft), don't shoot off a bi-pod (hard on hard) as you get a bounce. If you do, load your bipod before you press.

I found going to an Appleseed shoot GREAT for learning natural point of aim too!
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Old 09-09-2017, 7:19 PM
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It does make sense . think I was jumping the gun there . I somehow thought some will get their tightest group at 100 and use elevation adjustment according to the velocity drop and make their zero liking yardage .
Remember, if you have a one MOA rifle, then you will be one inch off at 100, two inches off at 200 and so on. Thats why people try to get a sub MOA rifle. But, you have to learn all that other junk to justify the costs. I shot a TC Venture with a SWFA fixed mil dot scope for years, working all this out and talking with the seasoned guys till I had it figured out, THEN I built the expensive rifle and bought the expensive scope.
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Old 09-09-2017, 7:23 PM
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And read books on shooting, ballistics, and so on. Now I easily hit a chest sized plate at 1200, which is pushing a 175 gr bullet, and a 400 hostage plate at 400 without any stress. If I do miss, I usually have called it when I let it go and knew I screwed up before the splash.
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Old 09-09-2017, 7:50 PM
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I think the rifle can definitely do better for sure . I guess there isnt really upside for making my rifle zero at 3-400yards . As for being a better shooter , I just need stop being a cheapass not always looking for bulk deal lol . but I was fine with what it can do for what it is for my types of shooting . but Its one of my goal now to achieve better groups lil further . ill take baby steps . thanks all
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Old 09-09-2017, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
Clean your rifle very well when you switch ammo. It will also take about 20 rounds for your barrel to calibrate to the new ammo. Your next step would be to get into reloading. Then you can tune your ammo to your rifle.
What kind of voodoo you trying to teach this guy?. Good clean barrel, 2-3 FOULING shots max then the ammo is going to do what it does with the barrel, chamber, throat, bullet, powder, & brass combo he has.
And in reality it don't need to be that clean anyway. knock the powder fouling out and call it good if the barrel has already got about 50-100 rounds down the tube.

the rifle don't give a damn what you were shooting before you started shooting something else.

20 rounds for the barrel to calibrate to the ammo??? Yeah no...
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Old 09-09-2017, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by G38xOC View Post
I think the rifle can definitely do better for sure . I guess there isnt really upside for making my rifle zero at 3-400yards . As for being a better shooter , I just need stop being a cheapass not always looking for bulk deal lol . but I was fine with what it can do for what it is for my types of shooting . but Its one of my goal now to achieve better groups lil further . ill take baby steps . thanks all
what you want is solid data based on solid range time.

My rifle (A Rem 700 in 308) is zeroed at 100 meters and I dial up to everything up to and including 1300 meters, I keep a data book that I've built for this rifle since i bought it. I record all drop to the water line and any changes in my drops and what the conditions were that caused that change. BTW the water line is a horizontal line dead center on the target. For long range F class matches we want our rifle on the water line first and foremost the wind we hold for.

so what you need to do is get good match ammo, build your skills until you can shoot better then 1" at 100 yards, then start pushing thing out to distance.
you need to build your fundamentals up to. mounting the rifle, your hold, breathing, sight picture, trigger press, and follow through. lots of practice. but lots of paying very close attention to the basics until you can do it second nature.
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That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
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Old 09-09-2017, 9:00 PM
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Dial it dead on at 100 yards then pull both turrets and set them to zero.
Don't drop any of those tiny screws because you will never find them
Now dial up 5 moa and shoot a 5 shot group then return your elevation knob to zero and see how the scope tracks.
Some scopes will require you to over travel the distance and come back to it.
That means you might move the turret down 7 moa then bring it back two minutes to compensate for any backlash.
You won't know until you try it.
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Old 09-09-2017, 9:00 PM
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What kind of voodoo you trying to teach this guy?. Good clean barrel, 2-3 FOULING shots max then the ammo is going to do what it does with the barrel, chamber, throat, bullet, powder, & brass combo he has.

And in reality it don't need to be that clean anyway. knock the powder fouling out and call it good if the barrel has already got about 50-100 rounds down the tube.



the rifle don't give a damn what you were shooting before you started shooting something else.



20 rounds for the barrel to calibrate to the ammo??? Yeah no...


Maybe calibrate isn't the best choice of wording. But from what I've read is that when you change bullets and ammo it takes a few rounds for the barrel and ammo to become optimal. Yes it will foul in 2-3 shots.

Every barrel is different. Factory barrels can be very picky or they can not be. My point earlier was that I would shoot 20 or so rounds before I wrote off that ammo in that rifle. I wouldn't shoot just 5 or 10 rounds and make a decision on how good or bad that combo is.
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Old 09-10-2017, 6:55 AM
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Maybe calibrate isn't the best choice of wording. But from what I've read is that when you change bullets and ammo it takes a few rounds for the barrel and ammo to become optimal. Yes it will foul in 2-3 shots.

Every barrel is different. Factory barrels can be very picky or they can not be. My point earlier was that I would shoot 20 or so rounds before I wrote off that ammo in that rifle. I wouldn't shoot just 5 or 10 rounds and make a decision on how good or bad that combo is.
20 rounds to give a new batch of ammo a fair shot is vastly different than "It will also take about 20 rounds for your barrel to calibrate to the new ammo."

Do you see how that would come off to a guy that can't express the difference between zero range and a drop chart?

I still disagree though, All barrels can be picky, not just factory. Just because you buy a well recognized quality barrel doesn't mean it's going to shoot well with any of the shelf ammo including so called match ammo. That said based on my experience I can tell precisely how good or bad the rifle and ammo are going to perform in one group. I'll confirm that single group just to be sure if i'm not confident in how the rifle is recoiling, or how well i built my position. The rifle is not all of a sudden going to start liking the ammo and close the groups up for you.
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That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
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Old 09-10-2017, 7:14 AM
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An accurate .22 LR can be a great way to practice. I always drop a target stand off at 50 yards on my way down range. It lets me shoot 20 5 shot groups for ten bucks or less. If I am having an off day some plinking with a .22 can help me get my grove back. Keep shooting fun. Shooting .22 at two or three inch splatter targets provides instant feed back as you can observe shot hits on target you can tell in real time if you are shooting one hole.

Last edited by stevebla; 09-10-2017 at 7:18 AM..
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Old 09-10-2017, 8:38 AM
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I was curious about box test after watching YouTube and I tested it myself . it tracked pretty good .

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Dial it dead on at 100 yards then pull both turrets and set them to zero.
Don't drop any of those tiny screws because you will never find them
Now dial up 5 moa and shoot a 5 shot group then return your elevation knob to zero and see how the scope tracks.
Some scopes will require you to over travel the distance and come back to it.
That means you might move the turret down 7 moa then bring it back two minutes to compensate for any backlash.
You won't know until you try it.
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Old 09-10-2017, 9:16 AM
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It has to track perfectly, any and all errors compound.

Next do a a tall target test to check your scope error. Put target at 100, click in 30 inches up, shoot, and see how close you are to 30 inches up on the target. Then find the % error that you apply to calculated drops.

Also, depending on your reticle pattern, don't put the dot on the target, put an area of the dot on the target, I use the very top of the dot, 12 o'clock.
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Old 09-10-2017, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G38xOC View Post
What method is best way to zero rifle at let just say 3-400 yards out ?

my current 308 is at zero at 100 yards , I dont consider myself a marksman ..my avg group would be 1 -1.5 moa .
I have tried to shoot at 200 yards and group really opens up and got me thinking .
If I wanted to zero my rifle out to 3-400 . and my group are let just say 15-20in wide , what do I have to do or use what methods to accomplish goal ?
Turn your elevation knob to raise your point of impact to correct for the drop at longer distances.
If you don't know how much to turn it, start with a ballistics program such as Ballistic on the iPhone or shooter on an Android.

As for groups getting larger, that is normal.
You can reduce them by improving your marksmanship skills and by using better quality ammo once your skills are improved.
Better ammo is unlikely to help much if the main problem is your marksmanship skills.
The biggest single factor to group size that I run into with new longrange shooters is the lack of understanding how to adjust the scope's parallax.

Read these:
http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1453
http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=36
http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=37
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Old 09-10-2017, 9:55 PM
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^ I appreciate all ur help . going to save that links , get to em later .
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Old 09-11-2017, 4:40 AM
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^ I appreciate all ur help . going to save that links , get to em later .
it's a lot to take in ain't it?? Don't get over whelmed, you'll be reading and studying off and on the entire time you are in this sport. I've been reading, practicing and studying shooting techniques for 30 years. I don't see an end in sight.
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Dick.

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That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
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Old 11-10-2017, 11:37 PM
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I would first start at 100 and shrink those groups to 1 moa or under. When you can shoot that consistently, then move it out to 200. When you've reached the limits of your gun at that distance...then move it out to 300.

thats how i'd do it. The gun should be capable of 1 MOA...if it truly isn't, then i'd work on it until it is capable of it.
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