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  #41  
Old 11-09-2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
And yet DOJ continues to process registrations. One must ask why that is?
Because when you register it, they don't ask how it got to your door. They don't ask if it was brought by the seller himself, or by the sellers agent (UPS).
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  #42  
Old 11-09-2017, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by fawndog View Post
So, people have been getting C&Rs sent to them without incident, yet CA DOJ doesn't care or raise issue with it ?

This has been going on 3 years now ?
People speed on the freeway all the time and only some get caught. The question is whether you want to take the risk of getting caught or not. It is one thing to know that you are doing something wrong, like speeding, and quite another to think that you are doing nothing wrong when it is actually illegal.
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  #43  
Old 11-09-2017, 4:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Yes it has, most likely because of possible conflicting laws and the confusion that it causes.

This is the law requiring people to use a California FFL DEALER in CA for firearms transfers.



And this is the law exempting 03ffls with a COE from having to go trough a California FFL DEALER to accept C&R long guns.
You are ignoring 27585. There are many laws and to not break the law you need to follow all of them, not just the ones that you happen to notice. The laws that you pointed out are in regards to in-state firearms.
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  #44  
Old 11-09-2017, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Because when you register it, they don't ask how it got to your door.
What he said.

The Collector In-State Acquisition of Curio or Relic Long Gun Report does not indicate if the firearm was shipped from out-of-state, since it is only to be used for C&R long guns acquired in-state in accordance to PC 27966.
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  #45  
Old 11-09-2017, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You are ignoring 27585. There are many laws and to not break the law you need to follow all of them, not just the ones that you happen to notice. The laws that you pointed out are in regards to in-state firearms.
I'm ignoring nothing, what I am saying is that they possibly conflict with each other and cause confusion.
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  #46  
Old 11-09-2017, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
People speed on the freeway all the time and only some get caught. The question is whether you want to take the risk of getting caught or not. It is one thing to know that you are doing something wrong, like speeding, and quite another to think that you are doing nothing wrong when it is actually illegal.
That's the thing, I think a majority of new C&R FFLs thought it was legal.
Hence the rehashing I'm subjecting yall to.
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  #47  
Old 11-09-2017, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
I'm ignoring nothing, what I am saying is that they possibly conflict with each other and cause confusion.
They don't conflict, they say what you can't do. People look at one and say that it is ok, but don't look at all.
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  #48  
Old 11-09-2017, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by fawndog View Post
That's the thing, I think a majority of new C&R FFLs thought it was legal.
Hence the rehashing I'm subjecting yall to.
It is not just new C&R FFLs. There are others as well, some make interesting claims, but refuse to answer specific questions. They tell others and are believed.
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  #49  
Old 11-10-2017, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
As of 01-01-2015, under CA laws...

All firearm transfers are to be done through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27545]

An exemption to this is if the buyer has a valid C&R FFL + valid COE and is acquiring a C&R long gun within CA. [PC 27966]

An exemption to this is if the buyer has a valid C&R FFL, travels out-of-state, physicaly acquires a C&R firearm, and brings to back to CA. [PC 27585(b)(1) & 27565]


Starting 01-01-2015, a CA Resident with a C&R FFL/COE is no longer exempt from having to utilize a CA FFL dealer when acquiring a C&R long gun from out-of-state and having it shipped to CA. If the C&R long gun is shipped from out-of-state to CA, then it must be shipped to a CA FFL dealer (who then transfers it to the CA resident with the C&R FFL).

CA passed new laws that went into effect on 01-01-2015, that require CA residents that acquire firearms from another State and import them to CA, to be transferred to them through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27585]
^The only exemption for a CA resident with a C&R FFL is if they physically acquire the C&R firearm and bring it back to CA. [PC 27585(b)(1)]
These new laws makes it illegal for a CA resident with a C&R FFL to have a C&R firearm shipped from out-of-state directly to their address.
^Misdemeanor per long gun. Felony per handgun.
Shouldn't this be sticky'd for everyone's benefit ?
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  #50  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
As of 01-01-2015, under CA laws...

All firearm transfers are to be done through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27545]

An exemption to this is if the buyer has a valid C&R FFL + valid COE and is acquiring a C&R long gun within CA. [PC 27966]

An exemption to this is if the buyer has a valid C&R FFL, travels out-of-state, physicaly acquires a C&R firearm, and brings to back to CA. [PC 27585(b)(1) & 27565]


Starting 01-01-2015, a CA Resident with a C&R FFL/COE is no longer exempt from having to utilize a CA FFL dealer when acquiring a C&R long gun from out-of-state and having it shipped to CA. If the C&R long gun is shipped from out-of-state to CA, then it must be shipped to a CA FFL dealer (who then transfers it to the CA resident with the C&R FFL).

CA passed new laws that went into effect on 01-01-2015, that require CA residents that acquire firearms from another State and import them to CA, to be transferred to them through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27585]
^The only exemption for a CA resident with a C&R FFL is if they physically acquire the C&R firearm and bring it back to CA. [PC 27585(b)(1)]
These new laws makes it illegal for a CA resident with a C&R FFL to have a C&R firearm shipped from out-of-state directly to their address.
^Misdemeanor per long gun. Felony per handgun.
I am suitably convinced that all you have written is so (even if it may not have been the original intent of the legislature). It raises further questions in my mind. What role is the CA FFL dealer to play in a transfer from an out of state seller who ships a C&R long arm to them for the "benefit" of a CA C&R FFL? Collect sales tax? DROS? Charge whatever the CA FFL dealer desires to facilitate the transfer? Is it exactly the same as a transfer to a non-licensee except for the 10 day wait?
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  #51  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
I am suitably convinced that all you have written is so (even if it may not have been the original intent of the legislature). It raises further questions in my mind. What role is the CA FFL dealer to play in a transfer from an out of state seller who ships a C&R long arm to them for the "benefit" of a CA C&R FFL? Collect sales tax? DROS? Charge whatever the CA FFL dealer desires to facilitate the transfer? Is it exactly the same as a transfer to a non-licensee except for the 10 day wait?
Yes, it is the same as any other transfer. Sales tax may not apply if the seller is a private party and it is an occasional sale.
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  #52  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:46 AM
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You guys are funny. Do your homework. C&R long gun home delivery is very legal. Just work through a knowledgeable dealer.

Ok you may continue your trolling...

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  #53  
Old 11-10-2017, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SonOfaDI View Post
You guys are funny. Do your homework. C&R long gun home delivery is very legal. Just work through a knowledgeable dealer.

Ok you may continue your trolling...

Really? So then you can explain how it is exempt from 27585 then, right?

To repeat for those who did not read:

CA PC 27585

Quote:
ARTICLE 1. Crimes Relating to Sale, Lease, or Transfer of Firearms [27500 - 27590]
( Article 1 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )


27585.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the following:

(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27565.
CA PC 27565

Quote:
ARTICLE 1. Crimes Relating to Sale, Lease, or Transfer of Firearms [27500 - 27590]
( Article 1 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )


27565.

(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:

(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.

(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.

(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.

(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.
(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 745, Sec. 28. Effective January 1, 2012.)
This means that a CA resident with a C&R FFL can acquire a C&R firearm from outside of CA and bring it in, but can NOT have any C&R firearm directly shipped to them without violating CA PC 27585.

Getting away with it does not make it legal.
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  #54  
Old 11-10-2017, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Really? So then you can explain how it is exempt from 27585 then, right?

To repeat for those who did not read:

CA PC 27585



CA PC 27565



This means that a CA resident with a C&R FFL can acquire a C&R firearm from outside of CA and bring it in, but can NOT have any C&R firearm directly shipped to them without violating CA PC 27585.

Getting away with it does not make it legal.
And yet we have

Quote:
27545. Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's
license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the
parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer
of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to
Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).
With it's exemption from going through a CA licensed dealer

Quote:
27966.

Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(b) The firearm is not a handgun.

(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.

(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued thereto.

(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department.
And no mention that this only covers in state transfers of firearms.
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  #55  
Old 11-10-2017, 7:44 PM
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You just don't get it. 27585 deals with firearms out of state. It says you can't import them unless you meet the exemptions.

What is your exemption to 27585? You can't say that some other section doesn't prohibit it, so you can ignore the one that does.
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  #56  
Old 11-10-2017, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You just don't get it. 27585 deals with firearms out of state. It says you can't import them unless you meet the exemptions.

What is your exemption to 27585? You can't say that some other section doesn't prohibit it, so you can ignore the one that does.
It says that it has to be transferred through a Ca Dealer, 27966 exempt those with a 03ffl and COE from having to transfer through a dealer for C&R long guns .
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  #57  
Old 11-10-2017, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
It says that it has to be transferred through a Ca Dealer, 27966 exempt those with a 03ffl and COE from having to transfer through a dealer for C&R long guns .
No, it doesn't work that way. 27966 does not exempt you from every other section.

27585 says that a specific action is illegal. You have to be exempt from that. You would be charged with violating 27585, not some other section. What is your exemption for 27585. 27966 does not have an exemption for 27585. You could not be charged with violating 27545, nor many other sections, but that does not matter because you are violating 27585.

Is there some reason why this simple concept is beyond you?
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  #58  
Old 11-11-2017, 1:47 PM
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This is an example of a problem that people have when they don't understand how the CA PC actually works and then insist that illegal things are legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
It says that it has to be transferred through a Ca Dealer, 27966 exempt those with a 03ffl and COE from having to transfer through a dealer for C&R long guns .
This is FALSE because it is missing the details, which are important. 27966 does NOT exempt EVERY C&R long gun from having to be transferred through a dealer, yet he is claiming that it does. He ignores that more then one section can require a firearm be transferred through a dealer and that each exemption has to list which sections it applies to. He incorrectly assumes that one exemption applies to every section which has a similar requirement, but that is FALSE.

It would be one thing if he quietly just did it himself, but he is trying to convince others what he incorrectly thinks is legal and that they can do it without violating the law.

Here is a correction with important details:

Quote:
27545 says that it has to be transferred through a CA Dealer, 27966 exempt those with a 03ffl and COE from having to follow 27545 and transfer through a dealer for C&R long guns. 27966 provides an exemption for 27545 ONLY.

27585 also requires an out of state firearms to be transferred through a dealer. 27565 is an exemption for 27585 for C&R firearms for a C&R FFL holder, if you follow ALL of the requirements, which includes having to actually being out of state when you acquire the firearm. 27966 does not provide ANY exemptions for 27585 and does not apply to 27585.
Under the logic he uses there are cases in which killing someone is not illegal because it is self defense, so in using that "logic" one could say that it is always legal to kill someone because of one exemption should apply to everything.

Unless you have an exemption to 27585, you need to follow it unless you want to violate the law that specific law. The same applies to any and all other sections as well. Just because one section does not apply doesn't mean that other sections don't apply.
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  #59  
Old 11-11-2017, 2:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
This is an example of a problem that people have when they don't understand how the CA PC actually works and then insist that illegal things are legal.



This is FALSE because it is missing the details, which are important. 27966 does NOT exempt EVERY C&R long gun from having to be transferred through a dealer, yet he is claiming that it does. He ignores that more then one section can require a firearm be transferred through a dealer and that each exemption has to list which sections it applies to. He incorrectly assumes that one exemption applies to every section which has a similar requirement, but that is FALSE.

It would be one thing if he quietly just did it himself, but he is trying to convince others what he incorrectly thinks is legal and that they can do it without violating the law.

Here is a correction with important details:



Under the logic he uses there are cases in which killing someone is not illegal because it is self defense, so in using that "logic" one could say that it is always legal to kill someone because of one exemption should apply to everything.

Unless you have an exemption to 27585, you need to follow it unless you want to violate the law that specific law. The same applies to any and all other sections as well. Just because one section does not apply doesn't mean that other sections don't apply.

No, what I am saying is that the laws seem to be contradicting and confusing. Proof of this is that several large out of state dealers seem to believe that they can still ship C&R long guns directly to those in CA with 03ffl & COE.
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  #60  
Old 11-11-2017, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
No, what I am saying is that the laws seem to be contradicting and confusing. Proof of this is that several large out of state dealers seem to believe that they can still ship C&R long guns directly to those in CA with 03ffl & COE.
I don't think that they have much in the way of anything to lose by doing so. It seems that the risk is all on the FFL3 in CA. It isn't a risk I care to take.
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  #61  
Old 11-11-2017, 3:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
No, what I am saying is that the laws seem to be contradicting and confusing. Proof of this is that several large out of state dealers seem to believe that they can still ship C&R long guns directly to those in CA with 03ffl & COE.
That IS exactly what you are saying.

The laws might be confusing, but not really contradicting and not all that confusing. You actively ignored everything which went against with what you wanted.

Your proof is not really proof. People don't understand, like you, and claim that it is legal, like you, and ignore those who point it out, like you. Now instead of claiming the the CA PC allows it, you are saying because others do it, it must be legal. People speed, so it must be legal, right???

Look at exactly what you said. You claimed that because 27966 exempted C&R long guns from going through a dealer that it is exempted across the board. I kept asking what your exemption to 27585 and you kept pointing back to 27545 and 27966 which don't apply to 27585. Why did you mention 27966 and 27545? Be honest.

The real question is whether you finally get it or if you are still trying to claim that it must be legal for some odd reason.
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  #62  
Old 11-11-2017, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
I don't think that they have much in the way of anything to lose by doing so. It seems that the risk is all on the FFL3 in CA. It isn't a risk I care to take.
Quite true. It is legal under Federal law, well, perhaps since I think that there is something that they have to also follow state law, but the odds of getting noticed and the odds of actually having a problem is low in my opinion. My guess would be the most likely thing is that CA tells a specific company to not do it, if that. Far more likely that they go after the CA resident.
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Old 11-13-2017, 2:00 PM
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I did a little searching into the history of CA PC 27585 (which apparently shut the door on shipment of C&R long guns into CA to resident FFL3s. Section 27585 was added by AB 1609. On or about 23 May 2014, the proposed wording of 27585(a)(6) was amended to strike out
Quote:
(A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27966.
and replace with
Quote:
A person who complies with subdivision (b) of Section 27875.
. The bill, as originally submitted, contained wording that would have continued the practice of FFL3s directly purchasing long arms from out of state and having them shipped to their licensed address. Further, that original wording was consistent with the stated intent of the legislation
Quote:
SECTION 1. (a) It is the intent of the Legislature in adding Section 27585 to the Penal Code to do all of the following:
(1) Address the circumstances in which a California resident, on or after January 1, 2015, acquires a firearm outside of California and transports, imports, or brings that firearm into California, in violation of Section 922(a)(3) of Title 18 of the United States Code, but under circumstances in which Section 27545 of the Penal Code does not apply.
(2) Allow the current brokering processes set forth in Section 922(a)(3) of Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 27545 of the Penal Code, and any implementing statutes to continue.
(3) Allow persons who acquire firearms outside of California by bequest or intestate succession to utilize the functionally same reporting requirements as apply to an applicable exemption from Section 27545 if that receipt were to occur within California.
(4) To treat the delivery of a firearm made by a dealer pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 27585 of the Penal Code in the same manner as any other dealer delivery of a firearm, including but not limited to, the application of any exemption from the provisions of Section 27540 of the Penal Code, or Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2 of Division 6 of Title 4 of Part 6 of the Penal Code.
(b) It is not the intent of the Legislature in enacting Section 27585 to affect any of the following:
(1) The lending of firearms by or to California residents that occur solely outside of California.
(2) The lending of firearms in this state which comply with statutes that currently govern the lending of firearms.
(3) To impose duplicative and unnecessary reporting requirements where reporting requirements already apply.
(4) Persons who import or bring firearms into California under existing regulatory statutes who comply with those statutes.
The bill, as amended and passed, directly violates the intent of the Legislature.

Questions:

1) Is there any way to discover who amended the bill in this offending manner? The U.S. Congress is pretty transparent on these things. Is there a comparable "Congressional Record" for the state legislature?

2) Does the above fact introduce any legal basis to challenge and amend the law? Yeah, I know that is a long stretch (do as I say, not as I said I would say).
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  #64  
Old 11-17-2017, 10:56 AM
locomike locomike is online now
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if one buys a c and r long gun out of state and has a 03 and coe and mails the gun to himself. wouldnt that satisty all codes?
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  #65  
Old 11-19-2017, 1:54 PM
sirdutch sirdutch is offline
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Default Shipping of any C&R to a CA resident has to go to a 01 Private party transfers of C&R

Shipping of any C&R to a CA resident has to go to a 01
Private party transfers of C&R inside CA has to go through a 01
If a CA resident 03 holder is traveling out of state, they can buy C&Rs over the counter, then report when they get home.

Right?

You mean 03 FFL/COE holder right?
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  #66  
Old 11-19-2017, 2:05 PM
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kemasa kemasa is offline
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Originally Posted by sirdutch View Post
Shipping of any C&R to a CA resident has to go to a 01
Correct.

Quote:
Private party transfers of C&R inside CA has to go through a 01
I believe C&R long guns are exempt within CA, but would have to confirm that. 27545 & 27966.

Quote:
If a CA resident 03 holder is traveling out of state, they can buy C&Rs over the counter, then report when they get home.
Correct

Quote:
You mean 03 FFL/COE holder right?
Yes. C&R FFL is 03FFL, same thing, different names, with a CA DOJ COE.
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  #67  
Old 11-19-2017, 2:12 PM
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kemasa kemasa is offline
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Originally Posted by locomike View Post
if one buys a c and r long gun out of state and has a 03 and coe and mails the gun to himself. wouldnt that satisty all codes?
I am not sure, but it does not look like it.

27565

Quote:
...
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
My reading of the last sentence does not seem to allow for having someone else transport it into the state. It seems like it is saying that the person transports the firearm into the state.

You also would have 5 days to fill out the form after the firearm arrives, which would not be a problem if you flew, but if you drove, you might not make the time constraint. I suppose you could send in the form while out of state.
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  #68  
Old 11-19-2017, 6:08 PM
Hinnerk Hinnerk is offline
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
...

You also would have 5 days to fill out the form after the firearm arrives, which would not be a problem if you flew, but if you drove, you might not make the time constraint. I suppose you could send in the form while out of state.
I believe that the form can be submitted on line. See: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/online-reporting

Last edited by Hinnerk; 11-20-2017 at 11:43 AM.. Reason: to add URL
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