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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 11-10-2017, 6:43 AM
BeanFromSanDiego BeanFromSanDiego is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Replacing the BB with a regular button would be in violation of DOJ Regulation 5477, theoretically by itself a misdemeanor. It might also be charged as possession of an unregistered AW (if DOJ claims that a violation of 5477 voids your registration).

The safe thing to do is leave your BB on until it's done getting hashed out in court. There are 2 lawsuits in progress right now that seek to answer that question.


Hey do you happen to know the name of those law suits so that I could follow more closely?


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  #202  
Old 11-10-2017, 7:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BeanFromSanDiego View Post
Hey do you happen to know the name of those law suits so that I could follow more closely?


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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1375494

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1327859

DOJ's Response on Villanueva (cut and paste from PDF)

Quote:
4. Removal of Magazine Release Device (Eighth Cause of Action)
Plaintiffs also challenge a regulation prohibiting any post-registration alteration to the bullet
button. '4 (Compl. M 168-175.) This regulation helps to maintain the integrity of the current
registration process, by preventing registrants from converting registered weapons into weapons
that are not eligible for registration. The release mechanism for a weapon’s ammunition feeding
deviceiicw the bullet buttoniis an essential feature for registration purposes. Only weapons
with a particular kind of release mechanism may be registered at this time. An alteration to this
feature creates a registered weapon that is ineligible for registration.
Removal of the bullet-button also converts the weapon into an assault weapon that,
according to its features, should have been registered by January 1, 2001.15 (Pen. Code, § 30900,
subd. (a)(2).) This would expand the number of weapons in a category of assault weapons
previously closed to registration. The regulation will thus help prevent the new registration
process from being used to circumvent longstanding restrictions on the sale and possession of
weapons that have previously been classified as assault weapons.
Plaintiffs claim that the regulation is not related to registration because it regulates conduct
that occurs after registration. Plaintiffs also object that the regulation conflicts with the assault
weapons law because “nothing in the [assault weapons law] precludes individuals from
modifying a properly registered ‘assault weapon’ so long as the modification does not trigger
another prohibition unrelated to the [assault weapons law].” (Compl. 1] 174.) But the regulation
does not prohibit all post-registration modifications; rather, it prohibits modification of the
specific feature of the weapon that qualifies it for this particular registration process. Such a
modification is akin to the manufacture of a prohibited weapon, and nothing in the assault
weapons law allows the registration process to be used for manufacturing prohibited weapons.
These regulations safeguard the registration process and thus fall within DOJ’S APAexempt
rulemaking authority, and are reasonably necessary to effectuate the registration
requirement as well. The Court should defer to DOJ’S judgment on what is necessary to prevent
abuse of the registration process. (Maxwell-Jolly, supra, 199 Ca1.App.4th at pp. 315.)

(‘4 Section 5477, subdivision (a) provides, “The release mechanism for an ammunition feeding device on an assault
weapon registered pursuant to Penal Code section 30900, subdivision (b)(l), shall not be changed after the assault
weapon is registered. A weapon’s eligibility for registration pursuant to Penal Code section 30900, subdivision
(b)( 1) depends, in part, on its release mechanism. Any alteration to the release mechanism converts the assault
weapon into a different weapon from the one that was registered.”
‘5 Removal of the bullet button would transform the weapon into a true quick—release weapon, with “the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine,” as previously defined under the assault weapons law. If the weapon still has one of
the additional qualifying features, it would fall into the category of assault weapons originally subject to restrictions
on sale and possession as of January 1, 2000, which were required to have been registered by January 1, 2001. (See
former Penal Code §§ 12276.1 (2000) [introduction of feature—based definitions of assault weapon, effective January
1, 2000], 12285, subd‘ (a) (2000) [requiring registration ofassault weapons as defined under former section 12276.1
within one year],)
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Last edited by Dump1567; 11-11-2017 at 6:18 AM..
  #203  
Old 11-10-2017, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dump1567 View Post


Thank you!


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  #204  
Old 11-13-2017, 1:06 PM
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...

Last edited by montrose818; 11-13-2017 at 1:16 PM..
  #205  
Old 11-13-2017, 2:56 PM
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Total bull **** reasoning, right out of their cover "letter" they published with the 2nd round of regs. It's so absurd as to be literally comical. Circular reasoning is an understatement, more like merry-go round reasoning.

"Removal of the bullet button would transform the weapon into a true quick—release weapon"

Ah yes, a "a true quick release weapon". Did Feinstein write that? What in God's green earth is a a quick release weapon? Is that what goes with the thing that goes up?

No where in the language of the law does any of this BS exist, and they will have to defend it at some point and it's going to backfire, as long as we don't get an activist political judge. Which we will, for sure.
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

  #206  
Old 11-13-2017, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Total bull **** reasoning, right out of their cover "letter" they published with the 2nd round of regs. It's so absurd as to be literally comical. Circular reasoning is an understatement, more like merry-go round reasoning.

"Removal of the bullet button would transform the weapon into a true quick—release weapon"

Ah yes, a "a true quick release weapon". Did Feinstein write that? What in God's green earth is a a quick release weapon? Is that what goes with the thing that goes up?

No where in the language of the law does any of this BS exist, and they will have to defend it at some point and it's going to backfire, as long as we don't get an activist political judge. Which we will, for sure.
....which is exactly why I am going to register half my AR's, because if it does get overturned, I won't have to deal with all the other stupid contraptions.
  #207  
Old 11-13-2017, 3:31 PM
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Quote:
as long as we don't get an activist political judge. Which we will, for sure.
Well based on the reviews I read on-line of the Judge, it really comes down to his overworked legal research Atty and their opinion of guns.
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  #208  
Old 11-13-2017, 3:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Total bull **** reasoning, right out of their cover "letter" they published with the 2nd round of regs. It's so absurd as to be literally comical. Circular reasoning is an understatement, more like merry-go round reasoning.

"Removal of the bullet button would transform the weapon into a true quick—release weapon"

Ah yes, a "a true quick release weapon". Did Feinstein write that? What in God's green earth is a a quick release weapon? Is that what goes with the thing that goes up?

No where in the language of the law does any of this BS exist, and they will have to defend it at some point and it's going to backfire, as long as we don't get an activist political judge. Which we will, for sure.
this is California after all. What else would you expect?
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  #209  
Old 11-13-2017, 8:20 PM
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Before it was all

Quote:
"State lawmakers passed legislation outlawing rifles equipped with “bullet buttons” that allow for fast reloading."
Now it's

Quote:
"Removal of the bullet button would transform the weapon into a true quick—release weapon"
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  #210  
Old 11-13-2017, 8:24 PM
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Quick release chainsaw bayonet?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

  #211  
Old 11-14-2017, 4:39 PM
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So a "true quick release" magazine as opposed to a "not very quick, but still too quick for my tastes release" magazine?

The one that's exactly like the other and just as evil and deadly, but also not at all like the other and unique to the point of defining what the weapon is?

The feature that makes your registered assault weapon "super double assaulty" and somehow unregistered?

The legislation made a bullet button LEGALLY THE SAME as a standard mag release. No amount of circular, blundering regulatory babble can change that law.
  #212  
Old 11-14-2017, 5:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEtrane View Post

The legislation made a bullet button LEGALLY THE SAME as a standard mag release. No amount of circular, blundering regulatory babble can change that law.
Until a state or federal judge says otherwise, the DOJ did exactly that.
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  #213  
Old 11-14-2017, 6:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEtrane View Post
So a "true quick release" magazine as opposed to a "not very quick, but still too quick for my tastes release" magazine?

The one that's exactly like the other and just as evil and deadly, but also not at all like the other and unique to the point of defining what the weapon is?

The feature that makes your registered assault weapon "super double assaulty" and somehow unregistered?

The legislation made a bullet button LEGALLY THE SAME as a standard mag release. No amount of circular, blundering regulatory babble can change that law.
Was at a local gun shop and met a cop picking up a pistol there. 16 year vet and a gun guy, he said there was no way LEO could know or tell or even have any training to explain the BB madness. Said he would be taking off the BB as soon as he gets his reg.
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Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

  #214  
Old 11-14-2017, 8:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Was at a local gun shop and met a cop picking up a pistol there. 16 year vet and a gun guy, he said there was no way LEO could know or tell or even have any training to explain the BB madness. Said he would be taking off the BB as soon as he gets his reg.
There has never been any disputing this. I don't think anyone thinks a cop would see your rifle and say..... "blah blah blah". The only time it will be an issue is when you use your rifle in an actual self defense situation and they take it from you for evidence. Or for any other situation where they would need to confiscate it.

....and god help you if you have a "true quick release weapon"!
  #215  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:46 PM
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New regs released with new definitions. Looks like we will have a public comment period this time:

AW Regs Released 11/22/2017
  #216  
Old 11-22-2017, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CmdrChuch View Post
New regs released with new definitions. Looks like we will have a public comment period this time:

AW Regs Released 11/22/2017

And, of course, their first one is 'fixed magazine applies to shotguns', when the legislature did not write the law that way.
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  #217  
Old 11-22-2017, 1:30 PM
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So they want you to register.. pay the fees.. be subjected to all the CRUSHING rules of having an AW .. AND.. you have to keep your bullet button? LOL

So now you don't have an AW.. you have a BBAW.. a whole new class of animal and it will keep that BB forever..

No thanks, everything I have is now featureless or mag locked.. F them.. and if they make featureless have to register I would still rather have a grip fin than a bullet button.. but that's just me.

Besides, I would rather legally fight them every step of the way since they seem to have zero respect for the Constitution or anything else outside of their agenda.
  #218  
Old 11-22-2017, 1:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
And, of course, their first one is 'fixed magazine applies to shotguns', when the legislature did not write the law that way.
Yep! Looks like they went through Villanueva V. Becerra and started checking off the list:

Villanueva-v.-Becerra
  #219  
Old 11-22-2017, 1:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Was at a local gun shop and met a cop picking up a pistol there. 16 year vet and a gun guy, he said there was no way LEO could know or tell or even have any training to explain the BB madness. Said he would be taking off the BB as soon as he gets his reg.
So he was advocating breaking the law and just hoping cops would be ignorant .. or are you advocating this?

removing the bullet button after registration creates an illegal weapon.. you're risking a LOT by rolling them dice.

Last edited by Chevydriver; 11-22-2017 at 2:08 PM..
  #220  
Old 11-22-2017, 2:01 PM
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From the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCubeiro View Post
ANOTHER HOLIDAY GIFT TO GUN OWNERS—DOJ PROPOSES
REGULATION REGARDING “ASSAULT WEAPON” DEFINITIONS


On Wednesday, November 22—the day before Thanksgiving—the California Department of Justice officially notified the public of its intent to adopt a new regulation regarding the definitions of certain terms used to identify “assault weapons” under California law. If adopted, the regulation would take existing illegally adopted definitions of terms relating to “assault weapons” currently being challenged by NRA and CRPA in state court, and apply them to the identification of “assault weapons” under California law.

For those of you who are confused (and rightfully so, we might add), the regulation is a direct result of DOJ’s recently adopted regulations regarding the registration of newly classified “assault weapons” pursuant to AB 1135 and SB 880. As we reported in August, the Office of Administrative Law approved DOJ’s regulations regarding the registration of “assault weapons” only after it made a minor, non-substantive change to its originally proposed regulations which were formally rejected barely a month earlier.

According to DOJ, this non-substantive change made it so DOJ’s proposed regulations—including all of the definitions regarding “assault weapons”—only applied to the registration of newly classified assault weapons—a dubious distinction. As a result, those same regulations could not be used for the purposes of enforcement of California’s “assault weapon” restrictions in other respects. The proposed regulation will purportedly fix this gap created by DOJ as a result of its recently adopted “assault weapon” registration regulations.

NRA and CRPA attorneys are currently reviewing the proposed regulation and will be providing public comment. So stay tuned for more information, and make sure you are subscribed to NRA and CRPA email alerts.

In the meantime, members should know that DOJ will be holding a public hearing on the proposed regulation on January 8, 2018, from 10:00 AM to 12:00 PM, at the Resources Building Auditorium, located at 1416 9th Street, Sacramento, CA 95814. We encourage all of our members who are able to attend and voice their opposition. If you are unable to attend, you can also submit written comments no later than 5:00 PM on January 8, 2018, to the following:

Jacqueline Dosch
Bureau of Firearms
Division of Law Enforcement
Department of Justice

P.O. Box 160487
Sacramento, CA 95816-0487

Phone: (916) 227-5419
Email: awdefinitions@doj.ca.gov
  #221  
Old 11-23-2017, 7:37 AM
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"So he was advocating breaking the law and just hoping cops would be ignorant .. or are you advocating this?

removing the bullet button after registration creates an illegal weapon.. you're risking a LOT by rolling them dice."

What law was he advocating breaking? Show me the pc that states removing a bb from a RAW is a new crime.

Pro tip: regulations AREN'T law.
  #222  
Old 11-23-2017, 9:36 AM
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Default under 30'' for registered AW?

I just registered two rifles, ar and ak type.


Can I put a folding stock on my Wasr 10 with an overall length of less than 30''? Once I get my registration paperwork back of course. Has this been determined? I was hoping that in the future I could run my AK with a folder, and not some giant muzzle devise that looks horrible. This possibility was a major factor in me deciding to register my AK.
  #223  
Old 11-23-2017, 5:14 PM
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I am really having trouble figuring this out so if I could get some help it would be really appreciated.

Can a gun built from an 80% lower legally into AW config (prior to Jan 1, 17) that has full engravings but was not voluntarily registered as a rifle be registered as AW?
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  #224  
Old 11-23-2017, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
But how long will it take to get a result?
when the sun rises from the west and sets in the east. which means never.

And what is to stop the Rulers from proposing another set of laws that are just as bad?
Nothing will stop them. In fact I'm willing to say they have them ready for Newsom when he wins. We are literally less than 3 years or lessaway from seeing sh*t that will make your head spin. Since Brown has shown us he's just as anti gun as any other Democrat it can be next year.

Then...how long will it take to get the results from the next set of laws?

When will this end? Not until the last gun is taken from us all.
emphasis mine.
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  #225  
Old 11-23-2017, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devon View Post
I just registered two rifles, ar and ak type.


Can I put a folding stock on my Wasr 10 with an overall length of less than 30''? Once I get my registration paperwork back of course. Has this been determined? I was hoping that in the future I could run my AK with a folder, and not some giant muzzle devise that looks horrible. This possibility was a major factor in me deciding to register my AK.
Should have asked that BEFORE you registered
  #226  
Old 11-23-2017, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devon View Post
Can I put a folding stock on my Wasr 10 with an overall length of less than 30''?
Maybe, maybe not. The DoJ says changing the mag release makes your firearm a different firearm that isn't the one you registered. Yes, that makes no sense. That might be true of altering the stock. Nobody knows. The DoJ would likely say you manufactured a new unregistered AW. No clue where the old one went. The DoJ is that dishonest
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  #227  
Old 11-23-2017, 11:34 PM
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tag
  #228  
Old 11-24-2017, 9:23 PM
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Thank God I'm leaving this effed up state.
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  #229  
Old 11-24-2017, 9:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Maybe, maybe not. The DoJ says changing the mag release makes your firearm a different firearm that isn't the one you registered. Yes, that makes no sense. That might be true of altering the stock. Nobody knows. The DoJ would likely say you manufactured a new unregistered AW. No clue where the old one went. The DoJ is that dishonest
Which is the only reason why they would want pictures.. decide you want to swap to FDE furniture? Guess what, it's a different gun now and you broke the law.

Sound silly? Really? This is the same group that considers a tan gun of the exact same model a different gun from the black one that is on the roster. They don't have to deal in logic since they make the rules.
  #230  
Old 11-24-2017, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Maybe, maybe not. The DoJ says changing the mag release makes your firearm a different firearm that isn't the one you registered. Yes, that makes no sense. That might be true of altering the stock. Nobody knows. The DoJ would likely say you manufactured a new unregistered AW. No clue where the old one went. The DoJ is that dishonest
If you read that response to villenueva, they kinda admit that the new laws dont prevent other modifications. Only a specific modification (the BB). Hopefully that's something we can use later if they try to get crazy and say any modifications are prohibited.
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  #231  
Old 11-24-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazed_SS View Post
If you read that response to villenueva, they kinda admit that the new laws dont prevent other modifications. Only a specific modification (the BB). Hopefully that's something we can use later if they try to get crazy and say any modifications a prohibited.
Maybe we can answer that question by making the changes during the reg period and attempting to re-register the same gun, now modified? As in -

1. Register AW, receive confirmation letter
2. Modify gun with other furniture or evil features
3. Attempt to re-register the same gun with altered features
4. Profit?

I don't see any downside to doing this, you're still exempt from the possession laws during the reg period. Worst case, you lose 15 bucks on the 2nd attempt to reg. I highly doubt they will accept the 2nd registration attempt on the same gun.

You could even submit the same gun in multiple configs on your first attempt. Just submit it as different setups on the same make/model/serial #, include pics and see what happens. Wouldn't even cost you another $15.
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  #232  
Old 11-25-2017, 8:14 AM
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Crazed_SS Crazed_SS is offline
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Found the quote I was looking for..

Quote:
Plaintiffs also object that the regulation conflicts with the assault
weapons law because “nothing in the [assault weapons law] precludes individuals from
modifying a properly registered ‘assault weapon’ so long as the modification does not trigger
another prohibition unrelated to the [assault weapons law].” (Compl. 1] 174.) But the regulation
does not prohibit all post-registration modifications; rather, it prohibits modification of the
specific feature of the weapon that qualifies it for this particular registration process.
Such a
modification is akin to the manufacture of a prohibited weapon, and nothing in the assault
weapons law allows the registration process to be used for manufacturing prohibited weapons.
The part in bold seems to be saying, "We didnt say you couldnt change anything. We said you couldnt change the BB"

Ok.. we'll see lol
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  #233  
Old 11-25-2017, 8:36 AM
jcwatchdog jcwatchdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed_SS View Post
Found the quote I was looking for..



The part in bold seems to be saying, "We didnt say you couldnt change anything. We said you couldnt change the BB"

Ok.. we'll see lol

OK, so we can leave the bullet button on and install a ambi mag release then right?
  #234  
Old 11-25-2017, 3:58 PM
mistaunga mistaunga is offline
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Ok so do these regs mean that now you can have a felony button (magnet on the BB) stuck on there at all times? It doesn't modify the BB device installed on the gun, and it's a RAW... doesn't change the gun's configuration at all. It's still a BBRAW.

Has this already been discussed?
  #235  
Old 11-25-2017, 5:05 PM
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Jaycee916 Jaycee916 is offline
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I'm confused. Are we required to register our AR15's if install the magazine lock where we have to break the action to drop the magazine.

It's difficult to decipher anything from all the text?
  #236  
Old 11-25-2017, 5:07 PM
Chevydriver Chevydriver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaycee916 View Post
I'm confused. Are we required to register our AR15's if install the magazine lock where we have to break the action to drop the magazine.

It's difficult to decipher anything from all the text?
If your magazine is locked to the gun where you need to break the action open to load or drop the mag then your gun does NOT need to be registered..

That is how most FFLs are now selling AR type guns, with the mags locked.

CA wants it to be confusing.. creates more criminals that way
  #237  
Old 11-25-2017, 5:08 PM
Chevydriver Chevydriver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed_SS View Post
Found the quote I was looking for..



The part in bold seems to be saying, "We didnt say you couldnt change anything. We said you couldnt change the BB"

Ok.. we'll see lol
Or any "evil feature" that made the gun become an AW? So changing the folding/collapsing stock or the flash hider.

Poorly written law is poorly written
  #238  
Old 11-25-2017, 6:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevydriver View Post
If your magazine is locked to the gun where you need to break the action open to load or drop the mag then your gun does NOT need to be registered..

That is how most FFLs are now selling AR type guns, with the mags locked.

CA wants it to be confusing.. creates more criminals that way
Thank you brother!

Yes, CA likes to to confuse things as well as make new regulations unreasonable!
  #239  
Old 11-25-2017, 7:18 PM
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colossians323 colossians323 is offline
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the real question, is how does this lunacy even stand any type of legal tests where one used actual cases to support .gov?
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  #240  
Old 11-26-2017, 7:18 AM
tofuti tofuti is offline
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Register with lower marked full auto ("<<<"). Anyone done it?
Having a hard time getting a meaningful answer to this, see http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...1#post20950758
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