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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1321  
Old 09-30-2016, 3:40 PM
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Originally Posted by asymmetricalwarfar3 View Post
Can one still acquire an AOW right now?
Yes.
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  #1322  
Old 09-30-2016, 4:30 PM
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who has 'em (lol)?
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  #1323  
Old 10-04-2016, 9:06 PM
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I still want my super shorty.
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  #1324  
Old 10-04-2016, 10:04 PM
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Please bear in mind, I haven't read all 33 pages of this thread.

Like many, I'm depressed and worried over the direction California is headed. After this legislative year, I can't even joke to myself about addressing and overturning the effective ban on civilian NFA item (SBRs, suppressors, MGs) ownership. As much as I want a three-stamp gun, possession of one is nowhere in sight of my foreseeable future while living in this state.

What I want to bring up is a new chilling fear. The fear of firearm purchasing as we know it today being made as obtrusive and impossible as NFA item acquisition. For legislation to be passed redefining "dangerous weapon," and then seeing every semi-auto center-fired firearm fall under that obtuse definition. By liberal logic, the defined "dangerous weapons" would still be "obtainable." But realistically, these newly redefined "DWs" would be unobtainable due to the CADoJ refusing or indefinitely stalling to release DWPs.

This is purely conjecture on my part, but what could we do to preemptively prevent the above from happening? Aside from voting trump and hoping he acts pro-2A long enough to put pro-2A Justices in seat, is there a way we could legislate a safeguard to protect what ground we have left?
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  #1325  
Old 10-04-2016, 10:05 PM
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dupe please disregard

Last edited by Rusty_Shackleferd; 10-04-2016 at 10:08 PM..
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  #1326  
Old 10-05-2016, 8:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Rusty_Shackleferd View Post
Please bear in mind, I haven't read all 33 pages of this thread.

Like many, I'm depressed and worried over the direction California is headed. After this legislative year, I can't even joke to myself about addressing and overturning the effective ban on civilian NFA item (SBRs, suppressors, MGs) ownership. As much as I want a three-stamp gun, possession of one is nowhere in sight of my foreseeable future while living in this state.

What I want to bring up is a new chilling fear. The fear of firearm purchasing as we know it today being made as obtrusive and impossible as NFA item acquisition. For legislation to be passed redefining "dangerous weapon," and then seeing every semi-auto center-fired firearm fall under that obtuse definition. By liberal logic, the defined "dangerous weapons" would still be "obtainable." But realistically, these newly redefined "DWs" would be unobtainable due to the CADoJ refusing or indefinitely stalling to release DWPs.

This is purely conjecture on my part, but what could we do to preemptively prevent the above from happening? Aside from voting trump and hoping he acts pro-2A long enough to put pro-2A Justices in seat, is there a way we could legislate a safeguard to protect what ground we have left?
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  #1327  
Old 11-22-2016, 1:47 PM
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It seems that many people in CA will be registering their AR's, for example, as assault weapons in CA come 2017.

My laymen's understanding of the short barrel rifle laws in CA is that there is an exemption for a registered assault weapon.

So can we, or a firearms trust, apply for a federal stamp to legally own a SBR in CA?
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  #1328  
Old 11-22-2016, 1:53 PM
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Sadly, you cannot. The exemption to CA SBR law is for NFA registered AOWS only.
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  #1329  
Old 11-22-2016, 2:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty_Shackleferd View Post
Please bear in mind, I haven't read all 33 pages of this thread.

Like many, I'm depressed and worried over the direction California is headed. After this legislative year, I can't even joke to myself about addressing and overturning the effective ban on civilian NFA item (SBRs, suppressors, MGs) ownership. As much as I want a three-stamp gun, possession of one is nowhere in sight of my foreseeable future while living in this state.

What I want to bring up is a new chilling fear. The fear of firearm purchasing as we know it today being made as obtrusive and impossible as NFA item acquisition. For legislation to be passed redefining "dangerous weapon," and then seeing every semi-auto center-fired firearm fall under that obtuse definition. By liberal logic, the defined "dangerous weapons" would still be "obtainable." But realistically, these newly redefined "DWs" would be unobtainable due to the CADoJ refusing or indefinitely stalling to release DWPs.

This is purely conjecture on my part, but what could we do to preemptively prevent the above from happening? Aside from voting trump and hoping he acts pro-2A long enough to put pro-2A Justices in seat, is there a way we could legislate a safeguard to protect what ground we have left?
I don't think there's such thing as a gun that requires 3 stamps... or maybe it could be can + MG + DD or something? I don't know. I know an MG can have a stock and <16" barrel without an extra stamp.
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Originally Posted by mcb8 View Post
It seems that many people in CA will be registering their AR's, for example, as assault weapons in CA come 2017.

My laymen's understanding of the short barrel rifle laws in CA is that there is an exemption for a registered assault weapon.

So can we, or a firearms trust, apply for a federal stamp to legally own a SBR in CA?
There's no interaction between AWB and NFA.

In fact, while you can buy a C&R SBR, it essentially has to be manual action or still fairly long because a semiauto <30" OAL is an AW, even with a fixed magazine.
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  #1330  
Old 11-23-2016, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
yup, it's dead. the new proposal is to require trusts and corps to get CLEO sign-off instead of to eliminate the CLEO sign-off for individuals. the particulars are still up in the air but they will require any and all "responsible persons" in the entity to submit prints, photos, and CLEO sign-off when submitting an app. And if you later add a new trustee, you'll have to submit their info to ATF within 30-days. whether that will require the full prints, photos, and sign-off is unknown at this time. This should apply to all entities, even your Colts, Boeings and other defense companies that have NFA stuff. can you imagine every time they make a corporate change, that they will have to let ATF know? hopefully, the feds will get some blowback from them.
So people who previously obtained an AOW via a trust in the past, are those AOW's still legal in California?
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  #1331  
Old 11-24-2016, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by biscuitbarrel View Post
So people who previously obtained an AOW via a trust in the past, are those AOW's still legal in California?
"Responsible persons" need only file at time of application for a stamp. If the trust was set up properly under prior law, you should be fine.

[As for any large corporations with guns, i would suggest they use a corporate grantor trust.]
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  #1332  
Old 04-22-2017, 1:05 AM
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Default And then there's 80 percent builds that are neither Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, or AOW

Don't forget that actually, there are examples of builds that you can do that are neither pistol, rifle, shotgun, or AOW under State or Federal law. They are referred to as "Other."

Some of these are archived here, including links to ATF letters. One example here. The ATF letters are archived, too.

If you do these starting from your own 80 percenter, you will in fact have an "Other" type of firearm.

As Franklin Armory's current page points out in discussing this,
The advantage to a set up which results in an "Other" configuration is that

"the weapon is no longer classified as a rifle (nor pistol, shotgun, or AOW), which means that it cannot be considered an "assault weapon" by any existing assault weapon bans. It is simply an "Other" firearm and doesn't carry the restrictions that other traditional firearms may. In CA that means that an AR-15 pattern firearm with the CSW can use a standard magazine release instead of a bullet button as well as any legally possessed high capacity magazines!"

(At their above page they refer to the CSW but this would hold true with alternative "Other" firearms as well.)

There are other ways to circumvent CA law (some of which are detailed here) but the above discussion of "Others" is important because you don't need to jump through hoops to get a SBR or AOW when you could just build a "Other."
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  #1333  
Old 04-22-2017, 4:15 AM
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Originally Posted by freethinkr View Post
Don't forget that actually, there are examples of builds that you can do that are neither pistol, rifle, shotgun, or AOW under State or Federal law. They are referred to as "Other."

Some of these are archived here, including links to ATF letters. One example here. The ATF letters are archived, too.

If you do these starting from your own 80 percenter, you will in fact have an "Other" type of firearm.

As Franklin Armory's current page points out in discussing this,
The advantage to a set up which results in an "Other" configuration is that

"the weapon is no longer classified as a rifle (nor pistol, shotgun, or AOW), which means that it cannot be considered an "assault weapon" by any existing assault weapon bans. It is simply an "Other" firearm and doesn't carry the restrictions that other traditional firearms may. In CA that means that an AR-15 pattern firearm with the CSW can use a standard magazine release instead of a bullet button as well as any legally possessed high capacity magazines!"

(At their above page they refer to the CSW but this would hold true with alternative "Other" firearms as well.)

There are other ways to circumvent CA law (some of which are detailed here) but the above discussion of "Others" is important because you don't need to jump through hoops to get a SBR or AOW when you could just build a "Other."
You need to comply with both Federal and State laws.

Under CA laws, there is no "Other" firearm.

A firearm with a less than 16" barrel length is a "handgun" [PC 16530(a)] and a firearm that is not a "handgun" is a "long gun" [PC 16865].

In addition, a "handgun" can also be classified as a SBR/SBS if it also meets the definition of a SBR/SBS. [PC 16530(b)]
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  #1334  
Old 04-22-2017, 1:52 PM
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Default Example of "Others" permissible in CA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
You need to comply with both Federal and State laws.

Under CA laws, there is no "Other" firearm.

A firearm with a less than 16" barrel length is a "handgun" [PC 16530(a)] and a firearm that is not a "handgun" is a "long gun" [PC 16865].

In addition, a "handgun" can also be classified as a SBR/SBS if it also meets the definition of a SBR/SBS. [PC 16530(b)]
It shouldn't matter if there is no explicit mention of "Other" in CA laws.

The key is that the configuration of other does avoid the AW designation.

You mentioned that a firearm with less than 16" barrel length is a "handgun" (PC 16530(a)). It's worth going over the exact text of PC 16530 (a) and (b) for reference:

(a) As used in this part, the terms “firearm capable of being concealed upon the person,” “pistol,” and “revolver” apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length.  These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a “firearm capable of being concealed upon the person,” “pistol,” or “revolver” from also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun.


You also mentioned PC 16865, which states in full:

16865. As used in Section 26860, long gun means any firearm that is not a handgun or a machinegun.

What are the requirements of Section 26860 to which PC 16865 refers? These are the safe handling requirements.

26860. (a) Except as authorized by the department, commencing January 1, 2015, a firearms dealer shall not deliver a long gun unless the recipient performs a safe handling demonstration with that long gun.

Now bear in mind, supposing that you had developed an "Other" (under federal law) that would fit the definition of a "long gun" under California law, as an 07 FFL, and if a firearms dealer were to want to transfer that gun to someone, it would have to go through all kinds of requirements. Suppose for a moment that this would have a barrel designed to be 16 inches in length but that the design would otherwise look something like this. It would not be an AW under CA, but it would need to go through standard transfer requirements.

Because of CA law the overall length will need to be over 30 inches.

However, in the case of an "Other" developed from an 80 percent receiver by an unlicensed person in their own home with characteristics as described above, the firearm is not going to be transferred, due to federal law that prohibits transfers of the item that the unlicensed person has made for their own purpose, so the above requirements regarding safe handling demonstration upon transfer do not come into effect.
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Last edited by freethinkr; 04-22-2017 at 3:03 PM..
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  #1335  
Old 04-28-2017, 11:33 AM
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Can somebody point me to the relevant pc for AOW in CA? Specifically the language that used to fall under 12020 before the realignment? Can't remember where they hid it...
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  #1336  
Old 04-28-2017, 1:04 PM
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Can somebody point me to the relevant pc for AOW in CA? Specifically the language that used to fall under 12020 before the realignment? Can't remember where they hid it...
CA Penal Code 17710

(a) The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to “any other weapon” as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code, which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(b) Any person prohibited by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 29610), Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 29800), or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of Title 4 of this part, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from possessing these weapons who obtains title to these weapons by bequest or intestate succession may retain title for not more than one year, but actual possession of these weapons at any time is punishable under Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 29610), Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 29800), or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of Title 4 of this part, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code. Within the year, the person shall transfer title to the weapons by sale, gift, or other disposition. Any person who violates this section is in violation of the applicable provision listed in Section 16590.
(c) The exemption provided by this section does not apply to a pen gun.
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  #1337  
Old 04-28-2017, 3:07 PM
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Thanks!
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  #1338  
Old 04-29-2017, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
You need to comply with both Federal and State laws.

Under CA laws, there is no "Other" firearm.

A firearm with a less than 16" barrel length is a "handgun" [PC 16530(a)] and a firearm that is not a "handgun" is a "long gun" [PC 16865].

In addition, a "handgun" can also be classified as a SBR/SBS if it also meets the definition of a SBR/SBS. [PC 16530(b)]
Side question. Once we register our legal AR pistols and they become RAWs, can we legally convert them into SBRs? Jump through the federal hoops, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then replace the pistol buffer tube with a telestock. What makes an SBR (or pistol with a stock) illegal in CA? Isn't it just the overall length under 30 inches makes it an AW? In this case, so what, it's already a RAW. What am I missing?
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  #1339  
Old 04-29-2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Side question. Once we register our legal AR pistols and they become RAWs, can we legally convert them into SBRs? Jump through the federal hoops, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then replace the pistol buffer tube with a telestock. What makes an SBR (or pistol with a stock) illegal in CA? Isn't it just the overall length under 30 inches makes it an AW? In this case, so what, it's already a RAW. What am I missing?
SBRs are covered under different PC than RAWs. To possess an SBR in CA you need to be issued a CA DOJ Dangerous Weapon permit. Wanna guess the chances of getting one of those?
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  #1340  
Old 08-29-2017, 7:21 AM
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I'm curious, what's the status of C&R firearms that were SBR/SBS'd when ATF said they kept status?

Are they still C&R? Can they be transferred?

Are they contraband?
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  #1341  
Old 10-04-2017, 5:10 PM
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I'm having trouble finding the C&R exemption in the penal code. Anyone have the new code number(s) exempting C&R SBRs and SBSs?
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  #1342  
Old 10-04-2017, 6:12 PM
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I'm having trouble finding the C&R exemption in the penal code. Anyone have the new code number(s) exempting C&R SBRs and SBSs?
Penal Code 17705
(a) The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and that is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items under Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Penal Code 16590
As used in this part, “generally prohibited weapon” means any of the following:
(t) A short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun, as prohibited by Section 33215.
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  #1343  
Old 10-04-2017, 7:06 PM
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Thanks, I can't believe I couldn't find that. I think I even skimmed it several times and it did sink in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Penal Code 17705
(a) The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and that is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items under Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Penal Code 16590
As used in this part, “generally prohibited weapon” means any of the following:
(t) A short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun, as prohibited by Section 33215.
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  #1344  
Old 11-10-2017, 6:46 AM
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Anyone register their AOW as an AW with the DOJ yet?

I'm a little concerned with the DOJ's lack of knowledge on all things firearms (and what's legal) and sending in a pic that will make them freak out.
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