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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by malfunction View Post
Yes ^^^^ Exactly this.

Do we know yet how many rounds were expended in this tragedy? Just trying to get a handle on how much advantage might have been gained by bump fire. I think probably zero advantage and the shooter could have easily done the same damage without it, a few thirty round strings of fire don't seem to add up to anything you couldn't do with with a few hundred trigger pulls in ten minutes.
True, however the use the bumpfire stock has deflected the discussion from semi auto rifle, to the bumpfire devices.
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  #82  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:41 AM
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Breaking News, the NRA has released a statement that bump fire stock should be subject to additional regulation and reviewed by the BATF. Iím looking for a link to the official quote.
Itís on NRATV
https://www.nratv.com/home
NRA has since '77 never supported a prohibition on a gun type.

I think they realize a tenous BATF letter that can be reversed, on a 'toy'
device, is useful trading material/diversion away from actual gun bans
and/or trading for carry & can issues.
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  #83  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:42 AM
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True, however the use the bumpfire stock has deflected the discussion
from semi auto rifle, to the bumpfire devices.
Very good point. They're arguing about $50 pieces of plastic now.
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  #84  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
Absolutely wrong.

What made it possible was his vantage point, his ability to shoot rows of people dozens deep where penetration might hit three people rather than just one, his remote proximity that kept him from being stopped quickly by someone with a CCW, security, or LEO, he was directing his fire at a crowd caught within side to side barriers with no way to escape (like the proverbial shooting of fish in a barrel), and has easy ability to fence in his victims with a complete side to side triangular sweep of the entire crowd.

When you listen to the gun fire, the Slide-Fire/bump-fire stocks actually worked against him because it caused a stop-start/hiccup situation and the rate was not much faster than singular pulls of the trigger in semi-auto. In fact, the manipulation required in order to make the bump-fire stock work would likely have slowed him down and gave cause for a pause.

He would have delivered just as much horror, if not more deaths and injury, by using his rifles without the bump-fire stock due to all of the logistics noted above. Anyone knows this to be true that also knows firearms, and has ever seen or used a bump-fire stock first-hand and in person.

I can not condone a ban on an inanimate object any more than I would ever support a ban on certain sized trucks because someone used one to kill 80 people in France by plowing into a crowd that was sequestered and corraled in very much the same manner as they were in Las Vegas.

It's silly to vilify the object rather than the person any more than banning the gun itself. It's pointless to ban the inanimate object as it's just a welcome mat to ban other innocuous features, doo-dads, ornaments, dongles, superficial add-ons, and whatever can be called the Devil in order to serve an agenda or political campaign. From out of this they also want the bill legalizing suppressors stopped, and some have called for a ban on bipods and aim-point type sights as well because he had them on just about all his rifles and the same claim was said about those as was said about his bump-stocks; they helped him shoot more accurately/faster.

But there is no merit in it and it saves nobody from anything. It's just food for an agenda and little more.

.
Well said.

What stuns me the most about all these ban-happy people, is that they don't step back to analyze all the details and they would rather hastily scapegoat something that may or may not have contributed to the carnage on this scale. Nevermind that investigators found several jammed rifles with BF stocks in the shooter's room, and the shooter likely wasn't hindered by this due to dropping them and simply picking up another fresh rifle (BF stocks might have actually worked against him in this regard, but it was nullified due to his over-preparedness).
Such knee-jerk reactionary emotions and actions are exactly what we stand against from the gun banners, but some people still don't get it, it seems.
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  #85  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
NRA has since '77 never supported a prohibition on a gun type.



I think they realize a tenous BATF letter that can be reversed, on a 'toy'

device, is useful trading material/diversion away from actual gun bans

and/or trading for carry & can issues.


Yes I think the NRA sees there are bigger fish to fry in re 2A. Hence their referral to BATF to change itís bumpstock opinion and undercut the antiís in Congress attempts to use legislation to ban bumpstocks as a springboard for their draconian agenda to further weaken 2A. Letting the BATF reverse itís opinion on bumpfire stocks, eliminates the need for congressional action.


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  #86  
Old 10-05-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
Absolutely wrong.

What made it possible was his vantage point, his ability to shoot rows of people dozens deep where penetration might hit three people rather than just one, his remote proximity that kept him from being stopped quickly by someone with a CCW, security, or LEO, he was directing his fire at a crowd caught within side to side barriers with no way to escape (like the proverbial shooting of fish in a barrel), and has easy ability to fence in his victims with a complete side to side triangular sweep of the entire crowd.

When you listen to the gun fire, the Slide-Fire/bump-fire stocks actually worked against him because it caused a stop-start/hiccup situation and the rate was not much faster than singular pulls of the trigger in semi-auto. In fact, the manipulation required in order to make the bump-fire stock work would likely have slowed him down and gave cause for a pause.

He would have delivered just as much horror, if not more deaths and injury, by using his rifles without the bump-fire stock due to all of the logistics noted above. Anyone knows this to be true that also knows firearms, and has ever seen or used a bump-fire stock first-hand and in person.

I can not condone a ban on an inanimate object any more than I would ever support a ban on certain sized trucks because someone used one to kill 80 people in France by plowing into a crowd that was sequestered and corraled in very much the same manner as they were in Las Vegas.

It's silly to vilify the object rather than the person any more than banning the gun itself. It's pointless to ban the inanimate object as it's just a welcome mat to ban other innocuous features, doo-dads, ornaments, dongles, superficial add-ons, and whatever can be called the Devil in order to serve an agenda or political campaign. From out of this they also want the bill legalizing suppressors stopped, and some have called for a ban on bipods and aim-point type sights as well because he had them on just about all his rifles and the same claim was said about those as was said about his bump-stocks; they helped him shoot more accurately/faster.

But there is no merit in it and it saves nobody from anything. It's just food for an agenda and little more.

.
I'm not an AR/AK guy but I agree. He would have killed just as many in semi-auto and perhaps more had he gone with a more powerful round. I'm not sure that is a point we want to make, however, as it lends credence to the argument that the rifle type itself should be banned. He likely could have killed as many using multiple rifles with 10 round magazines. Remember, what helped identify his location is that his firing eventually triggered the smoke detector. As I understand it, that is why the security guard went to that particular suite.
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  #87  
Old 10-05-2017, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by hollywoodnights View Post
....
I believe that fully automatic rifles by manufacture or by modification have no place in our country. We all know that the body count here would have been RADICALLY less if not for that accessory. IMO if we are going to keep our freedoms, we have to maintain respect for the incredible power and real deadly potential that our weapons possess. The Slide Fire inventor was fully aware that this could massively power up a mass shooting. If you see a video of a ton of milk bottles getting sprayed with a drum magazine, it's not hard to imagine that being a defenseless crowd. As I said, I hope that they are prosecuted in every single possible way.
how would we possibly know that? He was shooting into a crowd of thousands. Orlando had 49 killed and that was a crowd of hundreds and used a semi auto rifle in stock configuration. Your rationale makes no sense. Given the sustained rate of fire I'm surprised the count was not higher. Perhaps this device made the rifle inaccurate enough that it actually saved some lives. Ever considered that possibility?
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  #88  
Old 10-05-2017, 12:19 PM
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This event blew everything else out of the water for sheer injuries made, and that was only possible due to the high rate of fire out of that rifle. There's no getting around that.
I disagree. In the ten minutes he had to shoot, he killed 58 people.

I guarantee you if a good deer hunter, or someone trained in long distance shooting, with the right equipment as far as rifle and optics, a lot more people would have been killed in those ten minutes, without the use of auto fire.
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  #89  
Old 10-05-2017, 1:50 PM
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I disagree. In the ten minutes he had to shoot, he killed 58 people.



I guarantee you if a good deer hunter, or someone trained in long distance shooting, with the right equipment as far as rifle and optics, a lot more people would have been killed in those ten minutes, without the use of auto fire.


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  #90  
Old 10-05-2017, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by hollywoodnights View Post
Just finished reading the story of a local woman from my neighborhood. Special needs teacher in her 30's and a massive country music fan. Got shot right thru the neck thanks to the creative efficiency of either bump fire or slide fire, depending which one this ends up being.

Great deal for us in the United States. A bunch of idiots at various gun ranges have a new toy to burn thru a bunch of ammo and impress their buddies. And this shooter had a remarkably effective way to slay and maim a whole lot of ordinary citizens.. including plenty of women and mothers.

Those devices should be made illegal. Those companies should be prosecuted out of business. I hope that civil charges absolutely financially destroy the people who run them. They knew full well what their invention could allow.
Says the fellow with a speedloader next to his revolver?

What would you like to consider surrendering next - semi rifles, pistols, magazines? It's unfortunate folks in CA have been so well trained to bargain with the opening line of "I'll give up this first" and wish their industry harm. Is there any inclination to get something in return?

Your protocol is no different than the run of the mill anti-gunners we oppose. Ban that which is deemed bad and all will be well, or at least markedly better. Anti-gunners will be satisfied, we'll be left alone if just this one step is taken.

I have no use for slide fire, bump fire or whatever else it's called. However like some of our friends I'm not going to start a conversation with "this is what we should give up". I've noticed quite a few folks equating "slide fire" with full auto. Having been on the giving and receiving end of full auto, it isn't. And unless one has practical experience I would suggest the position that "slide fire" is somehow more deadly than semi-auto fire is mere supposition. I've done all three and semi-auto fire is by far the easiest. Whether it is the more effective, between semi and full, depends on the circumstances. True, anyone can hold back a trigger and empty a magazine but to do so with results is a challenge. My limited experience with slide fire is that if not learned the gun stops firing.

There are a whole host of shooting accessories that make a gun more effective. You referenced magazines - should Surefire be sued because their product was used? A Slidefire stock with a 10 round magazine is certainly less lethal (if one prefers that phrase) than a 60 round magazine. What about the folks who made the optic - should they be sued out of existence?

Perhaps I've not mentioned it here, but gun control is ineffective because it's misdirected. When an adult drives drunk we punish the offender. We don't knock on his neighbor's door and take their car keys, we don't tell the neighbor he's prohibited from owning the same car his drunk friend drove and we don't make him wait 10 days to buy a new car.

I suppose there's a time for discussion, a time for politics and court cases, a time for bargaining. It seems ill advised for gunowners to advertise some sort of group mea culpa or shared blame; or haphazard suggestions as to what ought to be done.

Finally, if one supposes their bolt action rifle or revolver is safe they should recall legislation and ballot initiatives have been offered, and with respect to handguns passed, banning either. If one chooses to beguile themselves into believing otherwise that's fine. I heppen to have a similar POV on motorbikes - can't stand them, they're dangerous and people get hurt on them all the time. Doesn't matter to me if it's a GoldWing or a Harley or a dirt bike. I dislike them all equally. But because I believe in choice and leaving folks alone my approach is let folks do as they prefer. Anti-gunners have never shown any such similar inclination. They don't want you to have a Smith revolver any more than they want me to have a 1918 BAR.

Last edited by dfletcher; 10-05-2017 at 3:03 PM..
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  #91  
Old 10-05-2017, 2:12 PM
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Okay everyone... points read and acknowledged. I know that I'm obviously in the minority opinion on this site and in particular on this thread. That's okay. If I wanted to read nothing but my own opinions, I'd just write something on a notepad, look at it, and smile that everyone has my exact viewpoint.

Looks like I'm on a similar side to the NRA's official statement today.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...al-regulations

Directly from their statement:

“The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,” the org continued."

Interested to see where this goes. Even more interested to know if this diplomatic approach makes the NRA a collective "gun hater" or means that they are "siding with the enemy." Do you guys think that they're selling out or is this some kind of strategic chess play? Maybe they honestly believe that items like Bump Fire stocks are a public safety issue.

And if anyone has a video of a fat guy who's belly empowers him to shoot at the same rate of fire as the Vegas murderer, or some other easily jury-rigged and duplicated technique for near-automatic use then I'd love to see it. I'm skeptical, but I haven't seen every video on Earth, so maybe it's possible.

Last edited by hollywoodnights; 10-05-2017 at 2:17 PM..
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  #92  
Old 10-05-2017, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by hollywoodnights View Post
Okay everyone... points read and acknowledged. I know that I'm obviously in the minority opinion on this site and in particular on this thread. That's okay. If I wanted to read nothing but my own opinions, I'd just write something on a notepad, look at it, and smile that everyone has my exact viewpoint.

Looks like I'm on a similar side to the NRA's official statement today.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...al-regulations

Directly from their statement:

ďThe NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,Ē the org continued."

Interested to see where this goes. Even more interested to know if this diplomatic approach makes the NRA a collective "gun hater" or means that they are "siding with the enemy." Do you guys think that they're selling out or is this some kind of strategic chess play? Maybe they honestly believe that items like Bump Fire stocks are a public safety issue.

And if anyone has a video of a fat guy who's belly empowers him to shoot at the same rate of fire as the Vegas murderer, or some other easily jury-rigged and duplicated technique for near-automatic use then I'd love to see it. I'm skeptical, but I haven't seen every video on Earth, so maybe it's possible.
Itís a game of chess always looking several moves ahead and itís smart.
First: take the issue of bumpstocks away from the antiís publicity machine blaming the NRA for this tragedy.
Second: Move the issue away from congressional action where the antiís will amend any bumpfire legislation to include draconian anti gun measures forcing a no vote allowing them to blame all 2A supporters in Congress for the tragedy and causing a further riff within the GOP. Itís also avoids the parade of hapless family of victims and survivors being used as a political tool.
Third: Move it to BATF who will declare bumpfire illegal giving the NRA and its congressional supporters the mantle of leading efforts to decrease gun violence.
Itís classic political jujitsu.
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  #93  
Old 10-05-2017, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hollywoodnights View Post
...
And if anyone has a video of a fat guy who's belly empowers him to shoot at the same rate of fire as the Vegas murderer, or some other easily jury-rigged and duplicated technique for near-automatic use then I'd love to see it. I'm skeptical, but I haven't seen every video on Earth, so maybe it's possible.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bump+fire+fat+guy

also look at the related videos..one is someone showing how to do it with an AR and belt loop..
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  #94  
Old 10-05-2017, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywoodnights View Post
Okay everyone... points read and acknowledged. I know that I'm obviously in the minority opinion on this site and in particular on this thread. That's okay. If I wanted to read nothing but my own opinions, I'd just write something on a notepad, look at it, and smile that everyone has my exact viewpoint.

Looks like I'm on a similar side to the NRA's official statement today.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...al-regulations

Directly from their statement:

ďThe NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,Ē the org continued."

Interested to see where this goes. Even more interested to know if this diplomatic approach makes the NRA a collective "gun hater" or means that they are "siding with the enemy." Do you guys think that they're selling out or is this some kind of strategic chess play? Maybe they honestly believe that items like Bump Fire stocks are a public safety issue.

And if anyone has a video of a fat guy who's belly empowers him to shoot at the same rate of fire as the Vegas murderer, or some other easily jury-rigged and duplicated technique for near-automatic use then I'd love to see it. I'm skeptical, but I haven't seen every video on Earth, so maybe it's possible.
First, I do not have a bump stock, and have never had one, nor do I recall ever using one. Do a bit of searching for belt loop bump firing, which has been around far longer than slidefire or similar devices. I have tried this and it takes some practice to master.

I am sure that mastering the technique is easier with a device like a slidefire stock, but the way the belt loop and slidefire work is exactly the same.

Regardless, how hard do you think it is to put an AR on a bi-pod and manually pull the trigger 60 times? How much slower is it really? Even if it is slower, how is it less lethal? Do you think that your finger will cramp up and stop?

What others here (who know from experience) are trying to tell you, is that manually aimed fire, even if rapidly done, will hit more people than faster strings fired randomly over an area.

Take this example from what we have been told about the Vegas shooting:

The shooter fired 200 rounds at the security guard trying to enter the suite and wounded him once in the leg. Looking at the door, I am a bit skeptical about the 200 rounds but either way, he fired lots of rounds at a very close distance and almost all were ineffective.

2 or 3 well placed manually triggered shots (max) at the guard/door and the guard would be dead.

The 3 round burst was added to the M16 for good reason as the military studied the issue and found that in most cases full auto isn't an effective use of the ammo for a shoulder-fired weapon, and at the same time heats up the firearm and results in more malfunctions.
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  #95  
Old 10-05-2017, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hollywoodnights View Post
Okay everyone... points read and acknowledged. I know that I'm obviously in the minority opinion on this site and in particular on this thread. That's okay. If I wanted to read nothing but my own opinions, I'd just write something on a notepad, look at it, and smile that everyone has my exact viewpoint.

Looks like I'm on a similar side to the NRA's official statement today.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...al-regulations

Directly from their statement:

ďThe NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,Ē the org continued."

Interested to see where this goes. Even more interested to know if this diplomatic approach makes the NRA a collective "gun hater" or means that they are "siding with the enemy." Do you guys think that they're selling out or is this some kind of strategic chess play? Maybe they honestly believe that items like Bump Fire stocks are a public safety issue.

And if anyone has a video of a fat guy who's belly empowers him to shoot at the same rate of fire as the Vegas murderer, or some other easily jury-rigged and duplicated technique for near-automatic use then I'd love to see it. I'm skeptical, but I haven't seen every video on Earth, so maybe it's possible.
As a Life Member I've made my opinion known to NRA. If you're a member (?) perhaps you'll do the same.

It's an interesting thing, that when Nancy Pelosi says "I respect the 2nd Amendment ..." her supporters know what she's really saying, that the intro is just for effect. But gunowners tend to have fits when a pro-gun politician or organization does likewise.

As an aside, I remember when bullpup rifles were first offered for sale in the US. Compact killing machines of no sporting value was the admonition. Later, Glock pistols that could pass unseen through metal detectors and wreak havoc. Then "ghost guns" and 3D printed guns - all supposed to be "public safety" issues and a ruse for more gun control. None of it really panned out.

And again, you're making an assumption that this type of fire is somehow more deadly than plain old semi-automatic fire. If you have first hand knowledge that's valuable, but having not elaborated it makes me believe otherwise. I'd rather learn for myself rather than simply repeating what others assert is true.
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  #96  
Old 10-05-2017, 7:35 PM
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Thanks for that Bill.

While I can see the occasional fun of dumping $20 downrange every now and then using "traditional" bump firing methods, when the BF stock came out I did a major
that's fun.

No need for automatic weapons for me. The Army gives me opportunities to use them and free ammo to boot.

I get that people would like to have them and I will be the first to say it. Go gor it. I have no issue.
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  #97  
Old 10-05-2017, 7:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
NRA has since '77 never supported a prohibition on a gun type.

I think they realize a tenous BATF letter that can be reversed, on a 'toy'
device, is useful trading material/diversion away from actual gun bans
and/or trading for carry & can issues.
Agreed
It's a good bone to throw to the idiots and we give up nothing that we weren't going to lose anyway.
And IMHO it's an insignificant loss.
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  #98  
Old 10-05-2017, 8:18 PM
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Looks like HOLLYWOOD scores with the NRA for the win.
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Old 10-05-2017, 8:23 PM
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Remember on average 30 people die each day from alcohol related accidents, also. Every day. And that's 100% preventable. Why don't we ban alcohol. Oh wait, we tried that, too.
Logic must be used when looking at the numbers in our country of 330,000,000 people. It's a country much much larger than Australia, or Great Britain.
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Old 10-05-2017, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
Looks like HOLLYWOOD scores with the NRA for the win.
I thought the NRA was talking about DIAS and rubber bands.
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Old 10-05-2017, 9:03 PM
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Thanks Bill. While some folks see no point in coddling the senseless ideas of those taking away our freedoms, I think its important.
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Old 10-05-2017, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GW View Post
Agreed
It's a good bone to throw to the idiots and we give up nothing that we weren't going to lose anyway.
And IMHO it's an insignificant loss.

Yeah. We need to throw the gun grabbers a bone. I think they will stop at the bumpfire stock. And hey if they dont we can just throw them another bone. Its the right thing to do.
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Old 10-05-2017, 9:17 PM
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Hey Bill I just have a question. If we make a deal with the gun grabbing devils and let them ban the bumpfire stock, what happens when the bad guys take your advise "Spend the money on ammo and learn to shoot better" instead of dumping mags with with out aiming? What will we give the gun grabbers after the next psycho attacks us?


Boys, dont give these gungrabbers a damn thing. 2A is non negotiable. Hold your ground.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
OK, y'all have seen the news.

Gov't people wanna "do something" to please the whinging soccer moms.

Expect added attention in California to accessories like the SlideFire and other similar stocks.
("HellFire" and other trigger mods have long been banned.)

The definition of 'multiburst trigger activator' ("MBTA") under CA law really has nothing to do
with nor require modifications to the trigger itself, but instead broadly includes anything facilitating
elevated rates of fire - even a "wiggle stock".

If you & your gun(s) get into an LE-involved situation and it's found to have an MBTA device, expect
high risk of conviction (felony) and lack of lower plea opportunities.

Remember also:
  • MBTA possession alone, even without a matching gun, is a no-no.

  • MBTA status is not changed by any fixed magazine issue, etc/ on the gun as
    "mitigation". MBTA status & the relevant crime are completely separate from
    California AW & other CA gun laws.


Getting rid/destroying such a device does not erase the prior crime, but prevents ongoing crime continuation
and can help make prosecution more difficult. Don't be silly and save it and think you'll get $50 for it in an
adjoining state. Don't throw your guns and gun rights away for a toy piece of plastic. Spend the money on
ammo and learn to shoot better.

Your ***, your money, your rights. Don't expect SlideFire or anyone to pay your legal fees.

[Oh, expect added attention to Tannerite-like stuff too. Yes Tannerite, etc is illegal in CA if you haven't heard,
and there have been multiple successful prosecutions.]
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  #104  
Old 10-05-2017, 9:22 PM
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What about my belt loop and thumb?
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Old 10-05-2017, 9:38 PM
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Major Burnout.

Read btw the lines on NRA statement. It referred back to BATF for analysis.

Any prohibition on such in legislature would be able to be coupled with Carry Reciprocity and cans.

I'd also much rather remove cans from NFA and get carry reciprocity to override state law than fight over a $50 piece of plastic.

It also gives air cover to GOP legislators who are in metro/suburban seats and are getting soccer mom pressure.
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  #106  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:08 PM
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I think the ATF's "...more than one shot per pull of the trigger..." sort of implied but didn't spell out conscious pull of the trigger. The bump stocks take advantage of that, and kind of put the shooter in a state of continual controlled negligent discharge.

worlds fastest shooter vs bump stock

I believe Jerry could have stopped at 7 shots fired and was aware of all the shots fired, the other guy I think would have trouble shooting only 7 rounds out of 10.
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by M14 Junkie View Post
Curious, what exactly are you LOLing about? The shooting, or all the imbeciles running out and buying these stupid contraptions because of it? Oh, wait...
Great post! "LOL"? Really? I assume we are all sick over what happened. I pray most of us own guns in part to stop a monster like this. The fact that people rush out to buy a murder's guns within days of mass murder is far worse than the "politicizing" we all complain about.
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  #108  
Old 10-06-2017, 4:47 AM
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
I think the ATF's "...more than one shot per pull of the trigger..." sort of implied but didn't spell out conscious pull of the trigger. The bump stocks take advantage of that, and kind of put the shooter in a state of continual controlled negligent discharge.

worlds fastest shooter vs bump stock

I believe Jerry could have stopped at 7 shots fired and was aware of all the shots fired, the other guy I think would have trouble shooting only 7 rounds out of 10.
The shooter has to consciously pull the gun forward for every shot with a bump fire stock, and with a little practice the shooter can fire exactly two or three rounds or whatever amount he wants. That's where they got the Akins Accelerator, as it had a spring that returned the sliding receiver back into the shooter's finger. So even though the trigger itself was still semi-auto, the gun as a whole kept running with one pull of the trigger. An AA setup without the spring is where the idea for the sliding bump fire stocks came from, and IIRC the Slide Fire company had to pay Akins for use of his patent.

BTW people have been known to clip a few coils out of a buffer spring and put the result into an M4 type stock behind the buffer tube. Rig the stock locking pin from engaging the tube, and there you go, an Accelerator stock.
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  #109  
Old 10-06-2017, 7:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MrOrange View Post
The shooter has to consciously pull the gun forward for every shot with a bump fire stock, and with a little practice the shooter can fire exactly two or three rounds or whatever amount he wants. That's where they got the Akins Accelerator, as it had a spring that returned the sliding receiver back into the shooter's finger. So even though the trigger itself was still semi-auto, the gun as a whole kept running with one pull of the trigger. An AA setup without the spring is where the idea for the sliding bump fire stocks came from, and IIRC the Slide Fire company had to pay Akins for use of his patent.

BTW people have been known to clip a few coils out of a buffer spring and put the result into an M4 type stock behind the buffer tube. Rig the stock locking pin from engaging the tube, and there you go, an Accelerator stock.
2-3 rounds sure, 7 out of 10? 13 out of 20? Could say it fires more than one round per push forwards of the handguard, which philosophically becomes the new trigger, even thought there is another hammer release lever.



That explains DiFi's language .... accelerate the rate of fire....
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Old 10-06-2017, 8:01 AM
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Major Burnout.

Read btw the lines on NRA statement. It referred back to BATF for analysis.

Any prohibition on such in legislature would be able to be coupled with Carry Reciprocity and cans.

I'd also much rather remove cans from NFA and get carry reciprocity to override state law than fight over a $50 piece of plastic.

It also gives air cover to GOP legislators who are in metro/suburban seats and are getting soccer mom pressure.

Why should Americans have to decide how they want their rights infringed?

GOP legislators should have no problem educating soccer moms on the constitution.

Seeing all the stupid gun laws in CA, there is no reason to compromise our rights away.


Stay strong Bill. Dont give the gun grabbers an inch.
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  #111  
Old 10-06-2017, 10:03 AM
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Honestly, the NRA was pretty smart to take the wind out of the liberal's sails. Now they cant say that the big bad NRA doesn't want to do anything etc. That's a pretty big thing. Now they, sadly, have to admit the NRA is willing to help. It goes against all their other claims that we're just gun happy killers that never try to stop the killing. Remember, these people make decisions purely on emotions. Facts don't matter to them. Don't try to apply your logic to an idiot's mind. It doesnt work.
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:59 AM
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Accelerates and accelerating, two different things.
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Beacholiver View Post
Honestly, the NRA was pretty smart to take the wind out of the liberal's sails. Now they cant say that the big bad NRA doesn't want to do anything etc. That's a pretty big thing. Now they, sadly, have to admit the NRA is willing to help. It goes against all their other claims that we're just gun happy killers that never try to stop the killing. Remember, these people make decisions purely on emotions. Facts don't matter to them. Don't try to apply your logic to an idiot's mind. It doesnt work.
Agreed 100%
Side note:
To me the bumpfire gizmo is gimmicky at best.
I spend enough on ammo as it is. Blowing thru a mag load just to hear it go bang bang or shred a bunch of bottles or boxes (that I will then have to clean up!) is thrill I can live without.
How many times before your barrel is TOAST?
No thanks
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  #114  
Old 10-06-2017, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Shorthair View Post
Agreed 100%
Side note:
To me the bumpfire gizmo is gimmicky at best.
I spend enough on ammo as it is. Blowing thru a mag load just to hear it go bang bang or shred a bunch of bottles or boxes (that I will then have to clean up!) is thrill I can live without.
How many times before your barrel is TOAST?
No thanks

Sounds like classic "sour grapes" to me.
"Sour Grapes": Definition in MW: "disparagement of something that has proven unattainable"


I would submit, that you are missing the point. The whole point of having true freedom with firearms, is not having to pick and choose which of those freedoms we have to lose. We shouldn't have to choose. And the point sure as he*** isn't whether you want it, or not. We are free people, we are law-abiding, therefore we should have the CHOICE to buy it .

For the first amendment, do we tell people that their speech can only be 500 words or less? Or limited to words found in the first half of the dictionary?

Every single time we concede even the tiniest thing to the antis, just guarantees that they will be back for more, the first chance they get.
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  #115  
Old 10-06-2017, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by uscscjohn View Post
Great post! "LOL"? Really? I assume we are all sick over what happened. I pray most of us own guns in part to stop a monster like this. The fact that people rush out to buy a murder's guns within days of mass murder is far worse than the "politicizing" we all complain about.
The only reason people rush out to buy the gun or item (in this case) is fear of a ban. Liberals are their own worst enemy. Look at the last few months. Gun sales have been somewhat sluggish. Iím sure there were unsold slide fire stocks all over. And now?

If politicians threatened banning alcohol every time drunk driving deaths happened,everyone would be running out and buying up all the bottles.
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  #116  
Old 10-06-2017, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
2-3 rounds sure, 7 out of 10? 13 out of 20? Could say it fires more than one round per push forwards of the handguard, which philosophically becomes the new trigger, even thought there is another hammer release lever.

That explains DiFi's language .... accelerate the rate of fire....
I'm at a loss as to what tactical, recreational, or competitive situation would dictate you fire exactly 7 rounds, or 13. Doubles & triples have tactical and competitive applications, I don't think someone blasting melons out in the back forty is going to be worried about an exact round count per burst.

The handguard doesn't become the trigger, any pull anywhere on the gun is just bringing the gun to the trigger finger. [Side bar: What if you pulled on a suppressor to run a bump stock? Would that make the suppressor both a silencer and a full auto modification? Mebbe a telescoping suppressor with a bayonet lug and a Redi-Mag type fixture that can readily accept an 11 round magazine...] If you pick up a bump stock equipped gun and pull the trigger once, you get one shot. The oft-cited rubber band is more of a full-auto conversion than a bump stock.
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  #117  
Old 10-06-2017, 5:05 PM
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More than is usually the case, anti-gunners and the general public don't understand what a slidefire stock is, how it works, whether it is common or rare, difficult to use, etc. If they can't attach a neat little quip to it and garner support from the befuddled masses yearning to mouth breathe freely my feeling is the issue will fade away.
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  #118  
Old 10-07-2017, 9:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrOrange View Post
I'm at a loss as to what tactical, recreational, or competitive situation would dictate you fire exactly 7 rounds, or 13. Doubles & triples have tactical and competitive applications, I don't think someone blasting melons out in the back forty is going to be worried about an exact round count per burst.

The handguard doesn't become the trigger, any pull anywhere on the gun is just bringing the gun to the trigger finger. [Side bar: What if you pulled on a suppressor to run a bump stock? Would that make the suppressor both a silencer and a full auto modification? Mebbe a telescoping suppressor with a bayonet lug and a Redi-Mag type fixture that can readily accept an 11 round magazine...] If you pick up a bump stock equipped gun and pull the trigger once, you get one shot. The oft-cited rubber band is more of a full-auto conversion than a bump stock.
If you compare the firing mechanism of a semi auto and a closed bolt machine gun, I think you will understand my point. A rifle with a bump fire stock topologically (teacup is equivalent to a doughnut) is a closed bolt machine gun. The trigger finger becomes a hammer catch release pin.
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Old 10-07-2017, 3:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
If you compare the firing mechanism of a semi auto and a closed bolt machine gun, I think you will understand my point. A rifle with a bump fire stock topologically (teacup is equivalent to a doughnut) is a closed bolt machine gun. The trigger finger becomes a hammer catch release pin.
I understand what you are saying but disagree with you. Regardless of how you slice it and dice it, your body or any part of your body does not become part of your weapon. While you may keep forward pressure on the weapon at all times (the one pull for multiple shots you talk about) the fact still remains that the rifle moves rearward and must be pulled forward again. So one could argue that even though constant pressure is maintained, it is still a separate pull with separate forward motions. You could pull forward too hard and overpower the recoil therefore stopping the firing. Just like when I bump fire an AR without one of these stocks, I still maintain forward pressure all the time with an unmodified rifle and it is in no way a "machine gun".
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  #120  
Old 10-07-2017, 4:07 PM
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I understand what you are saying but disagree with you. Regardless of how you slice it and dice it, your body or any part of your body does not become part of your weapon. While you may keep forward pressure on the weapon at all times (the one pull for multiple shots you talk about) the fact still remains that the rifle moves rearward and must be pulled forward again. So one could argue that even though constant pressure is maintained, it is still a separate pull with separate forward motions. You could pull forward too hard and overpower the recoil therefore stopping the firing. Just like when I bump fire an AR without one of these stocks, I still maintain forward pressure all the time with an unmodified rifle and it is in no way a "machine gun".


Which is exact conclusion the BATF made when it ruled slide stocks where a rifle part not a machine gun (part) as defined in the 1934 NFA. The NFA defined a machine gun as one that is able to fire more than one round by only pulling the trigger only once.


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