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  #1  
Old 10-06-2017, 12:46 PM
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Default Question about getting "baited" into a fight

Recently saw a video on the internet where two guys were arguing. One guy (the smaller non aggressive one) was backed against a wall. The larger man began to box him in and was "baiting" him into a fight by aggressively moving in a manner as to make the smaller guy repeatedly flinch. We've all seen this before. It's a common movement an aggressor makes to bait somone into a fight or gage wether the opponent will block a punch if and when the agressor finically decides to deliver a real blow. In the video the smaller guy who is boxed in by the aggressor delivers a single knock out punch. The agressor only boxed him in and made intimidating movements as described above.

In this example, is the smaller guy charged with a crime? Evidence of the situation is colaberated by witnesses and or video confirming the above description.
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Old 10-06-2017, 3:48 PM
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Nobody? This is all hypothetical by the way. I wasn't part of any altercation, witnesses an altercation or am referencing someone else's altercation. Just saw a video online and wondered if the little guy would be in trouble.
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Old 10-06-2017, 5:35 PM
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you don't have to wait to be punched to defend yourself.

Did the aggressors behavior indicate an attack was likely?
Did the smaller guy believe the punch was necessary to prevent himself from being attacked?
Did he only use the amount of force necessary to stop the threat?

If so it's a good use of force.
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Old 10-06-2017, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboarstopper View Post
Recently saw a video on the internet where two guys were arguing.
One guy (the smaller non aggressive one) was backed against a wall. The larger man began to box him in and was "baiting" him into a fight by aggressively moving in a manner as to make the smaller guy repeatedly flinch. We've all seen this before. It's a common movement an aggressor makes to bait somone into a fight or gage wether the opponent will block a punch if and when the agressor finically decides to deliver a real blow. In the video the smaller guy who is boxed in by the aggressor delivers a single knock out punch. The agressor only boxed him in and made intimidating movements as described above.

In this example, is the smaller guy charged with a crime? Evidence of the situation is colaberated by witnesses and or video confirming the above description.

Can you share a link to the video, so we can all play along?
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Old 10-06-2017, 5:48 PM
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Was this the black guy vs the long haired guy? If so, that little guy should be clear after making several attempts to leave the situation alone.
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Old 10-06-2017, 6:02 PM
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Without having seen this video 415(1) PC comes to mind.
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Old 10-06-2017, 6:21 PM
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If I respond to a scene of a fight and there is a witness (especially an independent one) with video of the whole incident that shows the above; I'm not arresting/charging "little guy" for anything. Theoretically might the D.A./a detective decide to do something different? Maybe...
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Old 10-06-2017, 6:47 PM
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Way too many factors. State it happened in, in some states county/city would come into play. Race of the two people.

As I understand it if a person makes a verbal threat to do something that they also have the ability to do then it should be no charge. But in this country...??? Who the F knows.

Red
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Old 10-06-2017, 7:27 PM
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I tried to find the video but couldn't. It was something I saw sometime last week.
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Old 10-06-2017, 8:33 PM
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With the exact set of circs you described, i would say its just fine. But that doesn't mean it applies to every similar situation. One of the biggest issues with hypotheticals is that nothing in law enforcement is that concrete. Every situation is different and each call comes with its own unique facts and circumstance surrounding it.
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Old 10-06-2017, 9:56 PM
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I suggest looking at PC 240.
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Old 10-07-2017, 1:00 AM
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I suggest looking at PC 240.
Thanks.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:04 AM
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The situation as described is not what I'd consider "baiting". IMO, "baiting" is more like some jackoff sitting back and talking **** about or disrespecting you or someone you like/care about to the point that you want to shut him/her up by slugging him/her...
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboarstopper View Post
Recently saw a video on the internet where two guys were arguing. One guy (the smaller non aggressive one) was backed against a wall. The larger man began to box him in and was "baiting" him into a fight by aggressively moving in a manner as to make the smaller guy repeatedly flinch. We've all seen this before. It's a common movement an aggressor makes to bait somone into a fight or gage wether the opponent will block a punch if and when the agressor finically decides to deliver a real blow. In the video the smaller guy who is boxed in by the aggressor delivers a single knock out punch. The agressor only boxed him in and made intimidating movements as described above.

In this example, is the smaller guy charged with a crime? Evidence of the situation is colaberated by witnesses and or video confirming the above description.
First off, I am not a LEO. I like this forum (lots less nonsense) and very much like seeing the perspective of our LEOs, but not every question is directly a "LEO decides" question. I'm a lawyer, but don't do criminal law (defense or prosecution).

With respect to the bolded part - recognize that your question is pretty loaded. Will smaller guy be arrested? Will he be cited? Will he be questioned and released and a report filed? Will he eventually be charged and prosecuted?

I don't know on the first three questions I posed, and suspect it may vary considerably. As to the fourth - I suspect it will also vary, but that decision won't be made by responding LEOs - ultimately it will be decided by the assigned prosecutor / prosecutor's office.

As noted above -- under Cal law (and local jurisdictions may have additional statutes that are applicable), one could certainly make the case that the larger guy had committed an assault -- and that if the smaller guy were charged for the knock-out punch, he might have an affirmative defense to his own potential charge of battery -- i.e., he was the victim of an assault and defended himself appropriately.

Any affirmative defense of self defense will be evaluated (generally) on five factors: (1) innocense, (2) imminence, (3) avoidance, (4) proportionality, and (5) reasonableness.

Lots of situation-specific facts to weigh if there was actually a charge brought against the smaller guy (or the larger guy - someone can get his *** kicked and still be charged while the ***-kicker is not charged).

And also lots of situation-specific facts for the LEOs called to the scene to evaluate and figure out whether anyone deserved an arrest or citation.

Might nothing happen? Sure. Might both be arrested? Sure. Might one be arrested? Sure. Might no one be arrested but someone cited? Sure (I think - LEOs correct me here). Might arrests happen but no charges filed? Sure.

In other words, in the age-old fashion of lawyer talk - it depends! Just give the responsible prosecutor
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Old 10-07-2017, 1:43 PM
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Andrew Branca's new book "The Law of Self Defense" covers all those situations and questions.
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