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  #121  
Old 01-05-2017, 4:24 AM
Zyralius Zyralius is offline
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
You are now in possession of an illegal AW that has a less than 30" OAL. This is worse than being in possession of a BBAW, which supposedly is protected from prosecution until Jan 1st 2018. You might not be able to register unless the muzzle device is made permanent, but after registration you can remove the permanent muzzle device.



You could be arrested now is my point.



Welcome to California logic.


10 million gun owners in CA but only 250000 members signed up on CG's with some people with multiple accounts under multiple different names who are reading up on the current laws. I am pretty sure I am not the only one who is in violation. With that being said. I won't live in fear. We are all in violation. Stop living in fear. The other 9+ million people are going about their normal life not knowing what or how to proceed and quite frankly I doubt they care to know or educate themselves. And I bet, none of those people will be arrested and charged.


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  #122  
Old 01-05-2017, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by andyrew View Post
Unless your interpretation is credible and your words are legally binding, I think you should stop self-guessing / fear mongering other people.

Yes, the DOJ published a document stating the regulations, but plenty of aspects have yet to be clarified; such as... you guessed it - what options bullpup owners will have going forward in terms of registering, how to proceed with / without extending muzzle devices, etc.
Not sure how this is fear mongering. Read this thread and see how we hashed out this understanding over the last week. If you are afraid, so I am. This is the way the regs read right now.

It might be their biggest error to re-define the OAL measurement. Many people, millions probably, are not in compliance with the law. I'll give everyone even more reason to be afraid- as I have stated before this is not limited to bullpups. It effects other BBAW, and it effects featureless as well! Anyone who thought they had a 30" minimum length has to re-evaluate and measure.

There is some reason to suggest that this is covered under the immunity for one year to either register or convert it to legal, but where does it say this? Assuming that the DOJ is going to realize this error and give us an out is perhaps assuming that they care and are competent, which I am not willing to assume personally. We are all in the same boat.

Let's hope your right.
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  #123  
Old 01-05-2017, 5:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
10 million gun owners in CA but only 250000 members signed up on CG's with some people with multiple accounts under multiple different names who are reading up on the current laws. I am pretty sure I am not the only one who is in violation. With that being said. I won't live in fear. We are all in violation. Stop living in fear. The other 9+ million people are going about their normal life not knowing what or how to proceed and quite frankly I doubt they care to know or educate themselves. And I bet, none of those people will be arrested and charged.


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I'd like to think this is the case but look at the numbers bro, 250,000 people did not view this thread, actually less than 4,000. Over on the BB thread where people endlessly debate legal semantics on the take off keep on argument, they have 80,000 views. Gives you an idea where peoples heads are at and where their interests are.

Despite myself and others calling this issue into account there is little bandwidth. I've asked the lawyers to chime in and they have not, including other members who seem to be going at BB extremely hard. IMO BB is not nearly as big a deal as the OAL problem. If everyone with BB does nothing, they are essentially completely covered by the regs. If history is any indication, gun owners in CA are way better at doing nothing rather than doing something.

And being aware of OAL issues are going to require doing something, I'd argue sooner rather than later to be safe. Let's wait and see the official regs.
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  #124  
Old 01-05-2017, 7:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
FN PS90

So a PS90 with the "fake can" on the end would be a no go (without the can the overall length is under 30-inches)?

The shroud is held on for two set screws. I guess an easy fix would be to spot weld them?

Would be easy to drill out once moved out of state and would be permanent. Right?
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
High heat solder would work.


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How about just epoxy in the heads of the set screws that secure the fake can/muzzle extension on the PS90?

Is there any published verbiage from CADOJ that defines acceptable methods for "permanently" attaching a muzzle device?
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  #125  
Old 01-05-2017, 7:14 AM
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Default Bullpups and DOJ overall length definition...

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Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
How about just epoxy in the heads of the set screws that secure the fake can/muzzle extension on the PS90?



Is there any published verbiage from CADOJ that defines acceptable methods for "permanently" attaching a muzzle device?


Page 2-5471 D that's barrel length but I'm to lazy to read it all while at work.


Edit: Page 4-5471 X

https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.ne...egulations.pdf


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  #126  
Old 01-05-2017, 7:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
How about just epoxy in the heads of the set screws that secure the fake can/muzzle extension on the PS90?

Is there any published verbiage from CADOJ that defines acceptable methods for "permanently" attaching a muzzle device?
Yes and no. In the section it talks about how to measure for 30" OAL minimum, it does not say what is an approved method for permanent attachment of the muzzle device.

However, in the section on how barrel length is calculated, it does have approved methods for permanent attachment of the muzzle device.

"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel- seam welding hi-temperature(1100° F silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."

What does this mean? Well, I would take it to mean the approved methods are the same, since they call them out. As usual, it is poorly written and unclear on some level, but being conservative and playing it safe is a good rule.
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  #127  
Old 01-05-2017, 7:46 AM
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Yeah I am hoping it's more for barrels under 16" that it must have a "permanently" attached muzzle device to be considered part of the barrel length. Won't know for sure only time will tell. Fingers crossed. Still have hope.


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  #128  
Old 01-05-2017, 9:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
I'd like to think this is the case but look at the numbers bro, 250,000 people did not view this thread, actually less than 4,000. Over on the BB thread where people endlessly debate legal semantics on the take off keep on argument, they have 80,000 views. Gives you an idea where peoples heads are at and where their interests are.
Could just be that the BB thing is more controversial due to the DOJ essentially writing new law without the benefit of running it past the legislative branch. I plan to register (depending on factors) and the new featureless thing doesn't matter to me. The BB thing does.
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  #129  
Old 01-05-2017, 9:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
You are now in possession of an illegal AW that has a less than 30" OAL. This is worse than being in possession of a BBAW, which supposedly is protected from prosecution until Jan 1st 2018. You might not be able to register unless the muzzle device is made permanent, but after registration you can remove the permanent muzzle device.

You could be arrested now is my point.

Welcome to California logic.
Only if they've attempted to render them 'featureless', thus having the < 30" OAL matter (as length is a potential feature)

If they have a mag-lock-1.0 on them, it doesn't matter. They are eligible for registration (via the currently published regs)
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  #130  
Old 01-05-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
You are now in possession of an illegal AW that has a less than 30" OAL.
That is correct. The significant point is that it was legally possessed prior to 1/1/2017.

[QUOTE] This is worse than being in possession of a BBAW, which supposedly is protected from prosecution until Jan 1st 2018. [\quote]

How so? With the advent of the regs "assault weapons including those with magazines that require a tool to remove" are required to be registered and exempt. Implies not just BBd firearms must be registered.

Quote:
You might not be able to register unless the muzzle device is made permanent, but after registration you can remove the permanent muzzle device.
I should be able to register because of the non-permanent muzzle brake with a standard may release and a fin grid.
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  #131  
Old 09-13-2017, 4:35 PM
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Now that the regs have been approved, is there any clarification on the registration of Tavors etc.? Or are we all still in in wait-and-see mode?


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  #132  
Old 09-13-2017, 6:22 PM
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I'd still wait and see, at least till the end of the month.
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  #133  
Old 09-16-2017, 9:26 AM
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
I'd still wait and see, at least till the end of the month.


Wait for what? As far as I know the only ball still in play is the lawsuit, and those take years.
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  #134  
Old 10-06-2017, 1:34 AM
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Has anyone registered their bullpups yet?

PS90, Travor, AUG, etc....

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  #135  
Old 10-06-2017, 5:35 AM
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I won't be registering my Tavor SAR until sometime after January.
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  #136  
Old 10-06-2017, 7:38 AM
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Originally Posted by akspetsnaz View Post
Has anyone registered their bullpups yet?

PS90, Travor, AUG, etc....
I submitted some forms a week ago, one for a Tavor. I haven't heard anything back yet.
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  #137  
Old 10-06-2017, 7:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nvidkiller View Post
I submitted some forms a week ago, one for a Tavor. I haven't heard anything back yet.


Let us know when you find anything out. Thanks.


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  #138  
Old 10-06-2017, 8:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
Let us know when you find anything out. Thanks.


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Definitely. I do expect them to get kicked back. I noticed some people on here having an issue because they didn't click flash hider even though they have a compensator. I looked up the Tavor barrel extension that comes factory from iwi and its clearly listed as a brake:
https://iwi.us/product/tavor-5-56-al...le-brake-4-58/
However, they don't seem concerned with differentiating between comps and flash hiders. One in the same, learn something new everyday.
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  #139  
Old 10-06-2017, 8:22 AM
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I’m curious on if I can remove my 5” brake as long as it’s still 26” OAL if registered.


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  #140  
Old 10-06-2017, 8:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
I’m curious on if I can remove my 5” brake as long as it’s still 26” OAL if registered.


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From my understanding, there's nothing that says you can't. You're gonna have to know this for yourself though, you can't reference some user on Calguns if you get called on this, regardless of their post count.
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  #141  
Old 10-06-2017, 1:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
I’m curious on if I can remove my 5” brake as long as it’s still 26” OAL if registered.


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Don't remove it yet, and register it as a 30" and over rifle. Do not mess with less than 30" until we know more post registration.
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  #142  
Old 12-11-2017, 6:17 PM
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Anyone register a BB bullpup yet?
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  #143  
Old 12-11-2017, 9:06 PM
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Is having a threaded barrel not considered a feature, or is that only for pistols? I was under the impression that featureless AR platform rifles also needed to pin and weld muzzle devices, despite overall length requirement.


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  #144  
Old 12-11-2017, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by solidfreshdope View Post
Is having a threaded barrel not considered a feature, or is that only for pistols? I was under the impression that featureless AR platform rifles also needed to pin and weld muzzle devices, despite overall length requirement.
Pistol only.

Threaded barrel in and of itself is not a feature on a rifle.
Neither is a bayonet lug or bayonet.

Pinning and welding has generally only been needed to bring the barrel length to 16" or the OAL to 26" for SBR avoidance.
California AW laws require 30" minimum OAL, but did not require permanence, so on the bullpup designs, which were 26" with a 16" barrel, they were legal with a 4" can threaded onto the barrel.
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  #145  
Old 12-12-2017, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidfreshdope View Post
Is having a threaded barrel not considered a feature, or is that only for pistols? I was under the impression that featureless AR platform rifles also needed to pin and weld muzzle devices, despite overall length requirement.


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That was a thing during the Clinton ban. No longer so, and not a CA issue.
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  #146  
Old 12-12-2017, 6:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Pistol only.

Threaded barrel in and of itself is not a feature on a rifle.
Neither is a bayonet lug or bayonet.

Pinning and welding has generally only been needed to bring the barrel length to 16" or the OAL to 26" for SBR avoidance.
California AW laws require 30" minimum OAL, but did not require permanence, so on the bullpup designs, which were 26" with a 16" barrel, they were legal with a 4" can threaded onto the barrel.


Thank you for clearing that up - so for a pistol, the overall length is measured to the tip of the barrel, even if the rail is longer than the barrel, if the muzzle device is not permanent?


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  #147  
Old 12-12-2017, 9:22 AM
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That's an interesting question; I don't think the verbiage considered handguards that protrude forward past the barrel...

edit: To be clear, the regulation stipulates that you must measure from the end of the barrel.

Last edited by nicky c; 12-12-2017 at 9:25 AM..
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  #148  
Old 12-12-2017, 9:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
Let us know when you find anything out. Thanks.


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I got my Tavor approved with the IWI compensator not checked as a flash hider. There is no question on the application asking if it is pinned or not. I marked 16” barrel and 30” OAL. I marked caliber as interchangeable barrels, which DOJ directed me to correct to indicate caliber as 223 ( which they noticed marked on the receiver from one of the pic.) I decided not to send in a picture of the “Made Israel 5.56” barrel marking as this would cause brain farts.
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  #149  
Old 12-12-2017, 9:59 AM
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Anyone register a BB bullpup yet?
See above
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  #150  
Old 12-12-2017, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
See above
Anyone register one as Under 30"? I don't think it actually matters too much since the regulations say anything under 30" is an AW, but if someone got a Bullpup marked 'under 30' registered it would give the rest of us some guidance.

I'd rather make my bullpup 'officially' under 30" if that make sense.
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  #151  
Old 12-12-2017, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
Anyone register one as Under 30"? I don't think it actually matters too much since the regulations say anything under 30" is an AW, but if someone got a Bullpup marked 'under 30' registered it would give the rest of us some guidance.

I'd rather make my bullpup 'officially' under 30" if that make sense.


It make sense except that SB808 was so poorly drafted that DOJ filled in the “gaps” by issuing regs that included addition restriction not in SB808. I listened to the CRPA webinars on how to fill out the registration and Michel et al warned do not submit an application indication an OAL less than 30”, the point being its a trap (one of many) To have legally possessed a BB rifle prior to 12/31/16 it would have had an OAL of 30”. After you register it the only thing you may specifically not remove is the bullet button. No restrictions on changing anything else unless it is specifically prohibited by other laws. There are conflicts in the regs regarding OAL once a BBAW is registered. CRPA has some upcoming webinars which may clear up this issue. Stay tuned.


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  #152  
Old 12-12-2017, 7:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
Anyone register one as Under 30"? I don't think it actually matters too much since the regulations say anything under 30" is an AW, but if someone got a Bullpup marked 'under 30' registered it would give the rest of us some guidance.

I'd rather make my bullpup 'officially' under 30" if that make sense.
Doing so would admit to a law enforcement agency that you have committed a felony by being in possession of an illegal assault weapon.

I will say however, that I accidentally checked the box that indicates my rifles are under 30”.

The DOj responded by asking me to submit a photo with a measuring tape above the firearm displaying the length. Luckily for me I am not in possession of any illegal firearms and I was able to submit a photo of my rifles being over 30”.
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  #153  
Old 12-12-2017, 7:34 PM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
Doing so would admit to a law enforcement agency that you have committed a felony by being in possession of an illegal assault weapon.



I will say however, that I accidentally checked the box that indicates my rifles are under 30”.



The DOj responded by asking me to submit a photo with a measuring tape above the firearm displaying the length. Luckily for me I am not in possession of any illegal firearms and I was able to submit a photo of my rifles being over 30”.

No surprise there. Fortunately they are giving out do overs.


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  #154  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
Doing so would admit to a law enforcement agency that you have committed a felony by being in possession of an illegal assault weapon.
Not trying to argue, but how so?

The law has defined that on Jan 1 2017 my BB bullpup that was otherwise legal on Dec 31 2016 is now classified as an assault weapon.

The law ALSO states that the same rifle on the same day is now an assault weapon because the OAL, which is NOW measured from the end of the buttstock to end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, is less than 30".

Maybe there is some nuance regarding the AW possession exemption between the BB and the OAL, but I can't see how declaring it is under 30" per the CURRENT definition is harmful.
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  #155  
Old 12-13-2017, 8:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
Not trying to argue, but how so?

The law has defined that on Jan 1 2017 my BB bullpup that was otherwise legal on Dec 31 2016 is now classified as an assault weapon.

The law ALSO states that the same rifle on the same day is now an assault weapon because the OAL, which is NOW measured from the end of the buttstock to end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, is less than 30".

Maybe there is some nuance regarding the AW possession exemption between the BB and the OAL, but I can't see how declaring it is under 30" per the CURRENT definition is harmful.
It’s written right into the statute...

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12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
1. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
A. A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
B. A thumbhole stock.
C. A folding or telescoping stock.
D. A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
E. A flash suppressor.
F. A forward pistol grip.
2. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
3. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
The new regs changed the definition of how to measure the OAL, but if you check the box stating your rifle is under 30” and subsequently send photos demonstrating so, it is admitting to violating the statute in bold.

Last edited by caliguy93; 12-13-2017 at 8:32 AM..
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  #156  
Old 12-13-2017, 9:11 AM
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Default Bullpups and DOJ overall length definition...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
Not trying to argue, but how so?

The law has defined that on Jan 1 2017 my BB bullpup that was otherwise legal on Dec 31 2016 is now classified as an assault weapon.

The law ALSO states that the same rifle on the same day is now an assault weapon because the OAL, which is NOW measured from the end of the buttstock to end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, is less than 30".

Maybe there is some nuance regarding the AW possession exemption between the BB and the OAL, but I can't see how declaring it is under 30" per the CURRENT definition is harmful.


Admittedly both the legislation and DOJ regs are very poorly written in re OAL. As one OP has posted he accidentally marked under 30” on his bull pup DOJ application and was sent a rejection letter asking for a picture with a measuring tape to confirm OAL at 30”. Not that means the DOJ is absolutely correct. It appears what DOJ is using as it’s authority the wording a “legally possessed” AW rifle (not subject to prior registration requirements) as of 12/31/2016. Legal possession as of that date is 30” OAL. The conflict is existing AW definition of a OAL is less than 30”
(restricted by the Fed 26” OAL).

Michel et al has cautioned strongly under no circumstances should you make the selection of less that 30” OAL for a rifle. The multiple choice application form is full of pitfalls (traps). For example you could go through the make and model selection and attempt to register a Taurus Judge. You could attempt to register AW that should have been done in prior AW registration periods. Possession of which are both felonies.

We are not trying to be augmentative, we are trying to keep fellow Calgunners out of hot water until all
the grey areas are clarified.

A fellow Calgunner CockedandGlocked (many thanks) has posted a comprehensive page by page tutorial on how to fill out the application form, noting all the pitfalls. Sorry I don’t have the link.
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Last edited by Blade Gunner; 12-13-2017 at 9:22 AM..
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Old 12-13-2017, 9:18 AM
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Default

Thanks for the clarification. Helps to make the current understanding more clear. Don't see it as being argumentative at all.
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Old 12-13-2017, 9:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
It’s written right into the statute...
Thats exactly my point. The current configuration of my bullpup NOW meets the definition of AW for two NEW reasons, the bullet button, and being under 30" based on the NEW reg on measuring OAL.

It was legally owned before 1-1-17.

But I digress. I won't check the box based on my understanding mentioned in the post above.
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Old 12-14-2017, 5:01 PM
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When I registered my Tavor they kicked it back a couple times for pictures. Never asked about the extension or length.
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Old 12-28-2017, 4:23 AM
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For those registering their bullpups, are you successfully registering with Bullet Buttons or with grip wraps?
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