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  #1  
Old 12-12-2016, 9:44 PM
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Default Already Confusion for some Law Enforcement Personnel

I have a customer that works for one of the county's Sheriffs. He was asking about the new laws and I provided some clarification regarding registration period in 2017, etc... Here's a quote that has me scared, but I don't think most in these forums would be surprised by:
Quote:
I have asked the range staff, the DA's office, and others in the SO, and I have received different answers.
The good news is he also stated:
Quote:
It's sad what CA is doing to the law abiding gun owning citizens. Personally, I will never confiscate any honorable and law abiding citizens weapons for the purpose of enforcing this new law!!!
It seems that some of the DAs and agencies still don't even quite understand what is going on with the new laws. Too bad it doesn't really effect the criminals.

(This may not be the most correct forum so mods please move to correct area)
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:21 PM
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We may have reached the point where ignorance of the law is a valid excuse, because the laws are so numerous and such a mess that nobody can understand them all.


You can't use that stock with that flash hider and that grip unless you have a magazine lock but wait it has to be a new kind of magazine lock not the old kind but if you registered it twenty years ago you're good to go but if not you might go to jail but if you change to this stock and that grip then you're probably OK but that combo hasn't been to court yet so nobody knows.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:44 PM
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Since ignorance seems to be a prerequisite for a progressive to hold office...
By confusing everyone, they feel at home.
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Old 12-12-2016, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
We may have reached the point where ignorance of the law is a valid excuse, because the laws are so numerous and such a mess that nobody can understand them all.


You can't use that stock with that flash hider and that grip unless you have a magazine lock but wait it has to be a new kind of magazine lock not the old kind but if you registered it twenty years ago you're good to go but if not you might go to jail but if you change to this stock and that grip then you're probably OK but that combo hasn't been to court yet so nobody knows.
Lol brilliant...
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Old 12-13-2016, 5:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
You can't use that stock with that flash hider and that grip unless you have a magazine lock but wait it has to be a new kind of magazine lock not the old kind but if you registered it twenty years ago you're good to go but if not you might go to jail but if you change to this stock and that grip then you're probably OK but that combo hasn't been to court yet so nobody knows.
Best explanation I've heard yet.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:21 AM
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+1, it's a completely ridiculous state of affairs. No one knows and it's the definition of a flustercluck. If people where honest on this board and stop the endless interpretations and just concentrate on the reality that the DOJ may not clarify what the law means until late next year, we would be better off.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:46 AM
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A cop friend asked me to school him on the new laws the other day, and he just seemed confused. He mentioned that he'd been given different information by one of his LEO coworkers, information that I know to be erroneous. I doubt it all sunk in, and I think he'll focus on pulling over speeders. He's an easy going guy, though. Of course, that can't be said of all LEOs. Some want any excuse to write a ticket or bust you. It's the luck of the draw.

I know a guy that got busted for having a short barreled shotgun in his car. He was subsequently arrested and taken to jail. Turns out it wasn't a SBS, and the cop did not know how to properly measure the length of the barrel. Even though it is infrequent, this kind of stuff happens.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
We may have reached the point where ignorance of the law is a valid excuse, because the laws are so numerous and such a mess that nobody can understand them all.


You can't use that stock with that flash hider and that grip unless you have a magazine lock but wait it has to be a new kind of magazine lock not the old kind but if you registered it twenty years ago you're good to go but if not you might go to jail but if you change to this stock and that grip then you're probably OK but that combo hasn't been to court yet so nobody knows.
No doubt there will be people trying to utilize the Hillary defense
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowan View Post
Since ignorance seems to be a prerequisite for a progressive to hold office...
By confusing everyone, they feel at home.
They not only feel at home. They feel safe. Their tail feathers are covered by legislative immunity for passing laws that they already know are Unconstitutional.

Sad that CrapOfornia's stirred bowl of confusing spaghetti type gun laws are so FUBAR that not even those tasked with enforcing them can understand them. On the ignorance front. Cops get qualified immunity if they make a mistake based on ignorance of the law, as long as there is no provable intent to break the law on their part.

But for those law abiding citizens that get caught up in the web of confusing spaghetti bowl of laws. Ignorance is no excuse, and just makes them low hanging fruit and easy pickings for overly aggressive DAs. Just looking for a "win" on their record.

JM2c
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2016, 12:49 PM
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So we have a year to register, but we can't transport or use it...?

.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:51 PM
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You can transport it and use it. You just can't drive around with it in your vehicle unless going to or from a place where you are going to use it.

Simple.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:57 PM
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Pacrat.... exactly!
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Old 12-13-2016, 1:05 PM
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the point of these laws are not to stop criminals. It's to create criminals out of gun owners who don't understand or can even keep up with all the new laws spewing out of the legislature.
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Old 12-13-2016, 1:06 PM
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LE should refrain from trying to enforce laws they know they don’t understand especially when no crime has been committed where there is no victim.

Last edited by R Dale; 12-13-2016 at 4:55 PM..
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Old 12-13-2016, 2:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Dale View Post
LE should refrain from trying to enforce laws they know they don’t understand especially when no crime has been committed where there is a victim.
Seriously how is there a victim with no crime?

Now to the OP's post, truth be told you can get the same at gun shops. While I'm not too surprised that he got different answer's, since everyone's interpretation will vary some.

Heaven forbid that DOJ be timely with distribution of their guidelines. Hell the last "firearms update" I saw from the AG's office was in 2003, and I spend a good deal of time in a current rangemaster's office.
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Old 12-13-2016, 2:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
We may have reached the point where ignorance of the law is a valid excuse, because the laws are so numerous and such a mess that nobody can understand them all.


You can't use that stock with that flash hider and that grip unless you have a magazine lock but wait it has to be a new kind of magazine lock not the old kind but if you registered it twenty years ago you're good to go but if not you might go to jail but if you change to this stock and that grip then you're probably OK but that combo hasn't been to court yet so nobody knows.
WOW! Great analogy!
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Old 12-13-2016, 3:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Vigilante View Post
I know a guy that got busted for having a short barreled shotgun in his car. He was subsequently arrested and taken to jail. Turns out it wasn't a SBS, and the cop did not know how to properly measure the length of the barrel. Even though it is infrequent, this kind of stuff happens.
That cop, good intentioned or not, needs to not only loose his job, but ALL acquired monetary benefits, pension funds, etc., with said wealth transferred to the individual whose life he ruined.
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Old 12-13-2016, 3:24 PM
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Default Already Confusion for some Law Enforcement Personnel

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKSOG View Post
No doubt there will be people trying to utilize the Hillary defense


The 'It was a YouTube video' defense? Or, perhaps the 'popular vote' excuse? Would you believe the 'it's more convenient' excuse???

If James Comey can't convict her, then ...
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Old 12-13-2016, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Maltese Falcon View Post
So we have a year to register, but we can't transport or use it...?

.
Correct. The grace period is f or possession only... transport is a felony per Cuck Michel & CRPA legal.
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Old 12-13-2016, 4:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilante View Post
I know a guy that got busted for having a short barreled shotgun in his car. He was subsequently arrested and taken to jail. Turns out it wasn't a SBS, and the cop did not know how to properly measure the length of the barrel. Even though it is infrequent, this kind of stuff happens.
I know about a guy the same thing happened to. US marshals came and shot his dog and his kid and his wife. He was never convicted of the firearms charge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver
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Old 12-13-2016, 4:40 PM
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No way LEO will have any way to enforce anything until DOJ guidlines come out, and even then it will be months if not years for training to be developed. 99% of gun owners and 100% of LEO will be clueless. I don't think anyone needs to be worried about anything for the foreseeable future.

What the new laws have done is to disrupt the commerce of rifles which is exactly what they where intended to do. Those arguing old keyboard warrior mantras about registration and confiscation or "maximizing registration" are so out of touch will reality its depressing.

They want so badly to register our guns and then take them away that they haven't even released enforcement guidelines and probably won't until well into the new year? Lol, they could care less about what is or is not registered. The headache and added cost of workarounds that businesses have to put up with to sell a product in CA is the endgame.
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Old 12-13-2016, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltese Falcon View Post
So we have a year to register, but we can't transport or use it...?

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9M62 View Post
You can transport it and use it. You just can't drive around with it in your vehicle unless going to or from a place where you are going to use it.

Simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruss01 View Post
Correct. The grace period is for possession only... transport is a felony per Chuck Michel & CRPA legal.
Glad we got that cleared up....

EDIT: Found this in another thread -- So the gray area is the time after Jan. 01, 2017 and registering and since there is currently no mechanism is in place to do so, we have legal exposure?

Quote:
Present 30945.
Unless a permit allowing additional uses is first obtained under Section 31000, a person WHO HAS REGISTERED AN ASSAULT WEAPON or registered a .50 BMG rifle under this article may possess it only under any of the following conditions:
(a) At that person’s residence, place of business, or other property owned by that person, or on property owned by another with the owner’s express permission.
(b) While on the premises of a target range of a public or private club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets.
(c) While on a target range that holds a regulatory or business license for the purpose of practicing shooting at that target range.
(d) While on the premises of a shooting club that is licensed pursuant to the Fish and Game Code.
(e) While attending any exhibition, display, or educational project that is about firearms and that is sponsored by, conducted under the auspices of, or approved by a law enforcement agency or a nationally or state recognized entity that fosters proficiency in, or promotes education about, firearms.
(f) While on publicly owned land, if the possession and use of a firearm described in Section 30510, 30515, 30520, or 30530, is specifically permitted by the managing agency of the land.
(g) While transporting the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle between any of the places mentioned in this section, or to any licensed gun dealer, for servicing or repair pursuant to Section 31050, if the assault weapon is transported as required by Sections 16850 and 25610.
.
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Last edited by Maltese Falcon; 12-13-2016 at 5:28 PM..
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  #23  
Old 12-13-2016, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Lol, they could care less about what is or is not registered. The headache and added cost of workarounds that businesses have to put up with to sell a product in CA is the endgame.
Exactly this; they do not care a whit how many register or do not. They just want everybody scrambling and in confusion, and to make it easier for the DoJ to make firearms owners felons so they are prohibited from owning firearms in perpetuity.

The whole idea that they are doing this as a prelude to confiscation by serial number is laughable; they don't have to confiscate a SINGLE FIREARM to reduce non-LEO/non-showbiz firearm ownership in CA to near zero.
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Old 12-13-2016, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
No way LEO will have any way to enforce anything until DOJ guidlines come out, and even then it will be months if not years for training to be developed. 99% of gun owners and 100% of LEO will be clueless. I don't think anyone needs to be worried about anything for the foreseeable future.
\.
Who knows what LEO will do?.....I could see things going in many different directions, based on the whims of individual officers for starters.
The safest bet, and one that most here don't want to admit, is to leave questionable firearms back in your safe, and take something else to the range. I would rather not create an issue in the first place.
If your questionable (to the officer) weapon ends up in his squad car trunk, there is the possibility that you won't get it back. I'll be slinging my bolt-rifle until I learn otherwise. You do as you see fit.
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Old 12-13-2016, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
Seriously how is there a victim with no crime?

Now to the OP's post, truth be told you can get the same at gun shops. While I'm not too surprised that he got different answer's, since everyone's interpretation will vary some.

Heaven forbid that DOJ be timely with distribution of their guidelines. Hell the last "firearms update" I saw from the AG's office was in 2003, and I spend a good deal of time in a current rangemaster's office.
I intended to say crime where there are no victims I will edit my post.
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Old 12-13-2016, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
If your questionable (to the officer) weapon ends up in his squad car trunk, there is the possibility that you won't get it back. I'll be slinging my bolt-rifle until I learn otherwise. You do as you see fit.
That makes no sense. Go and shoot your BB rifle or older original RAW rifles anytime, what is LEO going to do? What should be recommended is that you don't take off your BB.

Acting skiddish and hiding legal purchased and owned semi auto rifles is silly.

You take your BB semi to a range what would LEO ever have a problem with at any time? Even if they where grossly misinformed and said something like you can't have a BB anymore if the registration period is not open then what could you possibly do to comply with the law more than what your doing? Even if the reg period opens early in 2017 you still have until 2018 to register, so having a BB semi at a range or in the car is fine.

LEO will not care and not understand, and just continue the older guild-lines until they are instructed otherwise.
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Old 12-13-2016, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
That makes no sense. Go and shoot your BB rifle or older original RAW rifles anytime, what is LEO going to do? What should be recommended is that you don't take off your BB.

Acting skiddish and hiding legal purchased and owned semi auto rifles is silly.

You take your BB semi to a range what would LEO ever have a problem with at any time? Even if they where grossly misinformed and said something like you can't have a BB anymore if the registration period is not open then what could you possibly do to comply with the law more than what your doing? Even if the reg period opens early in 2017 you still have until 2018 to register, so having a BB semi at a range or in the car is fine.

LEO will not care and not understand, and just continue the older guild-lines until they are instructed otherwise.
My older RAWS have papers; no problems with them. So far, BB weapons don't.
I don't predict what LEO will do.
BB's are out of play January 1. Unless it is registered, it is an unregistered assault weapon. Granted you have a year to register it, but the law does not say you can transport it until then. This is a problem.
How do you know LEO will not care? And if they do not understand, then what will they do? As before. I won't chance that prediction.
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Old 12-13-2016, 7:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
.
BB's are out of play January 1. Unless it is registered, it is an unregistered assault weapon. Granted you have a year to register it, but the law does not say you can transport it until then. This is a problem.
How do you know LEO will not care? And if they do not understand, then what will they do? As before. I won't chance that prediction.
You can't register anything if the registration is unavailable. Would LEO arrest you for possessing an unregistered assault weapon when you can't register it? There is also a year long period where supposedly the registration period is open, so how would arresting you for possession of an unregistered assault weapon when you have until December 31st to register it?

Spreading FUD about not going to ranges or assuming LEO will go after people with legal semi-auto rifles is silly. Am I not supposed to shoot a semi-auto rifle for a year or do anything with it and keep it buried in the safe?

The crazy uniformed cop paranoia argument can be used for almost anything.
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Old 12-13-2016, 8:27 PM
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^^^
I could see an agency like LAPD for example, easily confiscating an unregistered assault weapon, despite the fact that there may be no mechanism to register said weapon yet. Problem is, the DOJ has not given clear procedural guidelines as how to handle this. That is where I can see things going in different directions.
I'm not spreading FUD, I'm simply stating that NOBODY knows, or can predict with certainty, what any particular contact with LE over an unregistered AW may lead to. I don't assume that they will go after anybody, but I do believe that some may, given direction/lack thereof by their agency. I have seen on only one occasion a county LE agency carefully observe weapons at a firing range; everything was within lawful ownership, and they drove away. But that is no absolute guarantee of what may happen tomorrow.
Im saying that one's decision to leave an unregistered AW in a secure place until this is sorted out means that at least it won't be confiscated during some unforeseen contact under the most common circumstances.
"Crazy uniformed cop paranoia"? No, but cautious after watching a few others deal with stuff better avoided in the first place. YMMV
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lastinline View Post
That cop, good intentioned or not, needs to not only loose his job, but ALL acquired monetary benefits, pension funds, etc., with said wealth transferred to the individual whose life he ruined.
I have to disagree. The last printed version of Ca PC I have is from 2005. 11 years ago. It is in an 8 1/2 x 11" format and contains 1327 pages of fine print.

How many more statutes have been added in the last 11 years? It is simply impossible for any individual to memorize all that. And then be held personally liable for all it contains.

We have to have qualified immunity for LEO. Unless they "knowingly" break the law themselves. Even then they are entitled to "Due Process". Just as we average citizens are.

P5 said

Quote:
Heaven forbid that DOJ be timely with distribution of their guidelines. Hell the last "firearms update" I saw from the AG's office was in 2003, and I spend a good deal of time in a current rangemaster's office.
With what we get for AGs in this state. Neither LEOs or average citizens can trust any guidelines from that leftist beyotche's office. Look what a Circle Jerk Charlie Foxtrot she turned LEGR into?

And then pled the "If Cops were stupid enough to believe me, it's not my fault" defense.

And the Courts of course let her get away with it.

And she intentionally did the same with "Undetermined Delay" status of DROS. Anything she can do to confuse both LE and citizens and make firearms ownership more ornerous, she will do. If the Cops get sued, and innocent citizens go to jail or have their guns taken, that is just collateral damage for her agenda.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:08 AM
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Glad we got that cleared up....

EDIT: Found this in another thread -- So the gray area is the time after Jan. 01, 2017 and registering and since there is currently no mechanism is in place to do so, we have legal exposure?



.
Exactly. Look closely at what is being said.

In the first line, it specifies up front that we are discussing REGISTERED assault weapons. Every sub-section a-g applies to this REGISTERED assault weapon. This is where they outline exactly what you can legally do with your registered AW. These are the limited exceptions to the COMPLETE ban on AW's that registration entitles you to take advantage of.

None of the points in this section apply to UNREGISTERED assault weapons. That is key to this discussion. ALL of those activities with UNREGISTERED AW's are completely prohibited. The only exception is the newly-created AW's that become such by virtue of being feature+bb firearms when the clock ticks 12:00 AM on Jan 1, 2017 (or having been legally possessed in such a qualifying configuration prior to that time).

This may be a "grey area" in terms of people's understanding of it (hazy at best it seems) but it's crystal clear in terms of the law. On Jan 1 you have an unregistered AW that you are allowed to possess without fear of prosecution for the next 365 days. Basically, at home, in your safe, with no one else having access to it. That's not a pass to go to the range or do any of the other things that REGISTERED AW owners get to do. Once you get your registration paperwork back, THEN you can go get wild and freaky loading up your AW in the car and taking it to the range and enjoying all those other wonderful privileges that REGISTERED AW owner's get to do.

I think that should clear up any "grey" but then there are some folks who seem disinclined to want to understand it.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:12 AM
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Pretty sure the only people who comprehensively understand the laws the best are calgunners. There's no precedent on LE actually coming down on someone for the edge case infringements. It's all in you heads people. Want to see something actually happen? Self incrimminate.
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Old 12-15-2016, 6:21 AM
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I would like to see a posted opinion from Michael & Associates advising us on what to do/not do with the upcoming AW laws in this stupid state. At least they have a considered opinion based on their legal expertise in this area. Everything else that has been posted above is mere speculation as to what may/may not happen in 2017. That said, I agree with several above posters that being stopped by an LEO while in possession of an AW could go many different ways. The LEO may be pro-gun and do nothing or the LEO may be a rookie or anti-gun and want to make a name for himself/herself with their superiors and take you and your gun to jail. I don't want to be that test case so I will be keeping my AR guns in the safe and at home until we see how all of this crap works itself out. I'd rather be safe and keep my guns than chance an encounter with an LEO who has a hard on to prove something.

Even if you are 100% legal you may still take the ride and need to hire a lawyer to fix it for you and good luck getting your AW returned to you in a timely manner if at all. I don't want to be "that guy" so I'll wait and see how it all works out. My guess is that it will take someone being arrested and a lengthy (Not to mention VERY expensive!) court case for it to be fined tuned to the point where all of us mere mortals understand the new laws and how to comply with them.

Hell, I have met California LEO who are completely clueless as to the CCW laws in this s*** bag state. I had an LAPD LEO tell me once that my CCW issued by OCSD isn't valid in Los Angeles. The guy had to call his field supervisor to come in and verify that it was, in fact, valid statewide. The point being that so many LEO have no clue about the laws they are sworn to enforce that are already on the books let alone the new AW laws. I'll wait and see what happens before taking my AW out to shoot them!

My 2 cents anyway!
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Last edited by Big Jake; 12-15-2016 at 7:05 AM..
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Old 12-15-2016, 6:24 AM
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I would like to see a posted opinion from Michael & Associates advising us on what to do/not do with the upcoming AW laws in this stupid state.
You got $1,000? That's what it cost me last time I asked Michel & Associates for a legal opinion.
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Old 12-15-2016, 6:28 AM
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You got $1,000? That's what it cost me last time I asked Michel & Associates for a legal opinion.
I understand. Maybe they will post an opinion since they are members on CGN.
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Old 12-15-2016, 6:31 AM
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being stopped by an LEO while in possession of an AW could go many different ways. The LEO may be pro gun and do nothing or the LEO may be a rookie or anti-gun and want to make a name for himself/herself with their superiors and take you and your gun to jail.
Don't assume cops know every law on the books. There's a very high chance any cop on the street does not know the full/exact definition of an CA assault weapon. Nor would they know anything about the changes happening in 2017. A third scenario would be they simply don't know and either call it in to another person who doesn't know or just let you go.

Be nice. Explain things. Don't go on a long rant about how you hate the 'system' or any other cooky gun community conspiracy theories. Keep that for your non LEO engagements.
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Old 12-15-2016, 6:42 AM
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Don't assume cops know every law on the books. There's a very high chance any cop on the street does not know the full/exact definition of an CA assault weapon. Nor would they know anything about the changes happening in 2017. A third scenario would be they simply don't know and either call it in to another person who doesn't know or just let you go.

Be nice. Explain things. Don't go on a long rant about how you hate the 'system' or any other cooky gun community conspiracy theories. Keep that for your non LEO engagements.
This is EXACTLY my point. They most likely won't know the laws and if they happen to be anti-gun they may just arrest you and take you and your AW to jail with the thinking that the DA can figure it all out. Meanwhile, your life is in shambles trying to defend yourself against nothing and getting your rifle back? Good luck!
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Old 12-15-2016, 7:02 AM
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We may have reached the point where ignorance of the law is a valid excuse, because the laws are so numerous and such a mess that nobody can understand them all.


You can't use that stock with that flash hider and that grip unless you have a magazine lock but wait it has to be a new kind of magazine lock not the old kind but if you registered it twenty years ago you're good to go but if not you might go to jail but if you change to this stock and that grip then you're probably OK but that combo hasn't been to court yet so nobody knows.
Doubt it, that hasn't worked for the tax code
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Old 12-15-2016, 7:07 AM
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and if they happen to be anti-gun they may just arrest you and take you and your AW to jail with the thinking that the DA can figure it all out. Meanwhile, your life is in shambles trying to defend yourself against nothing and getting your rifle back? Good luck!
There's no precedent for this. Stop perpetuating this gun forum fear mongering.

You'd be surprised how many anti-gun folk would actually be nice to you and hear you out if you don't talk down on them. This includes the mythical 'anti-gun' cop.
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Old 12-15-2016, 7:09 AM
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Who knows what LEO will do?.....snip
I do. They'll do whatever they're told, especially if they risk losing their pay/careers. As a group they have never taken a stand for the "less equals" to that degree, and they never will.

Anyone disagree ?
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