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  #41  
Old 12-19-2008, 10:07 AM
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Default YESSS!!

AND THANKS TO YOU ^


congrats and thanks to all involved. if only we had a case like this in the bag regarding BBs/maglocks...
not that i wish the hardship on anyone to be the defendant in such a case, but once we win, it is good for all....

Last edited by goober; 12-19-2008 at 10:09 AM.. Reason: added tip o' the hat to the defendant!
  #42  
Old 12-19-2008, 10:07 AM
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congrats to all involved with this case!! i don't visit this portion of the forums all too much (whoever thought of the e-mail list thing is a genius as i would have never known about this w/o it)

CONGRATS!!
  #43  
Old 12-19-2008, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali80 View Post
What is Iggy going to do now that his ego is bruised?
If it involves correctly identifying any type of hole, I predict limited success.
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  #44  
Old 12-19-2008, 10:52 AM
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Congrats everyone, but especially John Contos and Don Kilmer!
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  #45  
Old 12-19-2008, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali80 View Post
I've been hiatus and look what happens when I return.

Miracles and commensense prevail, just in time for Christmas.

What is Iggy going to do now that his ego is bruised?
bruised ego? more like an upper-cut to his Chinny-Chinn-Chinn

Congrats to the CGF!

-
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  #46  
Old 12-19-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowfin2 View Post
Any punitive damages for DoJerks and Iggy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by artherd View Post
Stay tuned to this station

Am I the only one that got all warm and tingly
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  #47  
Old 12-19-2008, 1:08 PM
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Default do these guns have to have button mags?

or can they have regular ten round mags that you can swap at will?
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  #48  
Old 12-19-2008, 1:32 PM
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Congrats!

Them not returning your property (after the case was dismissed) is Bull*hit!
  #49  
Old 12-19-2008, 2:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunsmith View Post
do these guns have to have button mags? or can they have regular ten round mags that you can swap at will?
"Featureless" guns with an ordinary magazine latch (that is, one that is operated without a tool) can have magazines of any capacity, and they can be swapped at will.

If the gun has a non-detachable magazine (such as by installing a Bullet Button), then it may have any of the "features" such as a pistol grip or flash hider, and the magazine can even be swapped (with a tool), but it must never have a magazine that holds more than ten rounds installed.
Detachable magazine of any size + restricted features = illegal assault weapon.

Detachable magazine of any size without any other restricted features = OK.

Fixed magazine holding more than 10 rounds = illegal assault weapon, with or without the other restricted features.

Fixed magazine holding 10 or less rounds = OK, with or without the other restricted features.
The U-15 stock is one of the ways to avoid having restricted features, so that a regular magazine catch and magazines of any capacity may be used. The U-15 stock eliminates the normal pistol grip, which is one of the restricted features.

While it would be OK to build a gun with both a U-15 stock and a Bullet Button (BB) as long as the magazine holds no more than ten rounds, this would be a silly configuration unless you just happen to like the look or feel of the U-15 stock better. With the BB and a 10 round or smaller magazine, you may have as many pistol grips and flash hiders on the rifle as you want.

If you have a rifle with a Bullet Button, it's up to you whether you reload by swapping one 10-round magazine for another one, or remove the 10-round magazine to reload it, or leave the magazine in place and hinge open the upper half of the rifle to load it in place. Just make sure that you never put in a magazine holding more than 10 rounds, and also make sure that nobody else does that to your rifle a the range. Personally, I like to leave the magazine in place and install a plastic chamber safety flag when I'm away from the rifle (say, while changing targets), but the Range Officer may or may not like seeing an installed magazine during a range break.

The easiest way to make sense of this legal mess is to study the excellent CA AW ID Flowchart. There's a link to it hiding near the upper right corner of every Calguns forum page (below the ads and the first big blue bar) in case you lose it and want a new copy.
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  #50  
Old 12-19-2008, 2:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARBITER View Post
When I asked a Calif. DOJ bureau of firearms expert (Iggy) ...about the legalities of the U-15 stock ...he answered I have no opinion it is up to the 50 DA's and then several days later sends an undercover agent in to purchase the U-15 stock on a lower half, then 10 minutes later brings a swat team to raid my house ....
Is this the way our government is supposed to treat its citizens? Iggy CREATED a criminal.


Good work, CalGuns Foundation, and keep up the good fight!
  #51  
Old 12-19-2008, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by H.M. View Post
Is this the way our government is supposed to treat its citizens? Iggy CREATED WAS a criminal.
There, I fixed that for you. Since the U-15 stock clearly is OK according to both the text of the law and DOJ's own documents, and it clearly does not have a "thumbhole", Iggy performed a false arrest and/or gave false testimony. That's what you get when you have a law enforcement officer who is a JBT who doesn't know his head from a hole in the... uh... stock? desk?
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Last edited by 383green; 12-19-2008 at 2:26 PM.. Reason: Now 10% better!
  #52  
Old 12-19-2008, 3:25 PM
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Default





My hat is off to Gene and Don and many others who I'm sure were involved in this.

Does this establish any kind of precedent that the U-15 stock is legal, or did this case not make it far enough to set that in stone?
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Last edited by sierratangofoxtrotunion; 12-19-2008 at 3:29 PM.. Reason: extra partying
  #53  
Old 12-19-2008, 3:33 PM
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Agent Chinn knowingly committed a false arrest, and did so under color of authority. Immediate termination and prosecution is in order. Nothing less is acceptable. For that effort I would gladly contribute.
  #54  
Old 12-19-2008, 3:38 PM
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All,

Let me be clear. The Foundation's work is not done until John has his property in his hands. We have some experience getting things returned.

-Gene
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Last edited by hoffmang; 12-19-2008 at 3:40 PM..
  #55  
Old 12-19-2008, 5:26 PM
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Gentlemen: Well done.

A somewhat early Christmas present for Mr. Contos, and the community at large.

I hate to think what it's like in a parallel universe, where there is no CalGuns Foundation. Ugly stuff.

I have a donation for your Christmas stockings.
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  #56  
Old 12-19-2008, 7:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali80 View Post
I've been hiatus and look what happens when I return.

Miracles and commensense prevail, just in time for Christmas.

What is Iggy going to do now that his ego is bruised?
Been gone a while myself. Great news to which I returned. Iggy? Here's to him going back into the woodwork like a certain bug that does so when the lights come on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARBITER View Post
Thank you for all your support and guidance in having the case dismissed. Your the best. I want to thank Bill Wiese who recommended TMLLP C. D. Michell who put me in touch with Don Kilmer ( who defended me), Ivanimal (monitor), Gene Hoffman (Chairman, The Calguns Foundation), Wes Morris ( Ten Percent Guns), Ron Babcock ( Pres. Grassroots NRA Vallejo), Hector Garcia ( CWS ), Russ & Sally Nordyke ( T.S. Gun Shows) Joe Gun Guy & the Madison Society, my brother Mike (Public Defender City of brotherly love), Free and Accepted Masons of California, Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, the Law Enforcement Community at large, and many many others who supported me from Calguns. The fight is not completely over and I have the utmost confidence that Don Kilmer will obtain the release of the 47 SLR's, 5 complete upper assemblies, computer, ATF-A&D books, parts kits, bullet buttons, u-15 stock's, cash and etc.
My wife and I have always checked with Calif. D.O.J bureau of firearms for a straight answer concerning the legalities of firearms, from the Fab-Ten (CMS engine Service Co.)(mag well sealed SLR), Vulcan V15 (Mag epoxied and pinned) to firearms not on the assault weapons list. When I asked a Calif. DOJ bureau of firearms expert (Iggy) at the Vallejo Gun Show about the legalities of the U-15 stock (which wasn't even displayed, I pulled it out from a bin to show him and then put it away) he answered I have no opinion it is up to the 50 DA's and then several days later sends an undercover agent in to purchase the U-15 stock on a lower half, then 10 minutes later brings a swat team to raid my house knowing my wife was recovering from open heart surgery is unfathomable.
John Contos
That last sentence really showcases who/what we're up against. LE out of control, really. Thanks for all you have done (and will do i am sure). And thanks to all who fight this good fight.

K

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  #57  
Old 12-20-2008, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG View Post
Am I the only one that got all warm and tingly
Well, iggy didn't
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  #58  
Old 12-20-2008, 9:35 AM
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Don - see the title of my upcoming book

I have to admit though, sometimes it does feel like both Alison and Iggy are working for us.
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  #59  
Old 12-20-2008, 9:50 AM
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Default Devil's Advocate Re: (former) S.A. Iggy Chinn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill92869 View Post
Agent Chinn knowingly committed a false arrest, and did so under color of authority. Immediate termination and prosecution is in order. Nothing less is acceptable. For that effort I would gladly contribute.
At the risk of pissing off many fellow CalGunners, you all may want to consider an alternate theory than "Iggy Chinn is a bad guy."

Mr. Chinn (and his {then} boss Randy Rossi) gave truthful and very helpful testimony in the Nordyke case regarding that gun show's compliance with federal and state law.

I am also personally aware of Mr. Chinn being more than fair in several gun cases in which he and I worked on opposite sides in the past 10-12 years. I am also NOT personally aware of any excessive use of force or police brutality on his part; which sometimes comes with the territory in firearm L.E. work. (Think Ruby Ridge and Waco.)

Mr. Chinn and I have had our disagreements, and I have been critical of his work in the past, but I will require pretty convincing evidence of malice on his part before I make the leap that he is to be personally condemned or suffer any personal liability.

Before you condemn anybody in the firearm L.E. community, consider the possibility that they are charged with enforcing downright stupid, ambiguous, non-objective laws. The ASW mess in California is properly blamed on Sacramento.

The cowards we elected who passed (and/or vote for) these laws wouldn't know a machine gun from a BB gun. They just pass unenforceable irrational laws, then dump the whole mess on the other two branches of government (courts and police), then pat themselves on the back for making the world safe for flowers and puppy dogs.

If they had any guts, they would get on with trying to outlaw/confiscate ALL guns, instead of this incremental approach. I just want the cowards to volunteer to lead the troops going door to door in their own political districts for the purpose of collecting the guns. Hopefully they will wear big name tags that also show how they voted. [I'm not holding my breath.]

Until then we need to keep the political/philosophical discussion about the purpose of the right of self-defense - and the absolute necessity of free citizens being armed - alive in this (and many other) forum(s).

Singling out one police officer who is taking an aggressive position on enforcement is a distraction. It lets the real culprits escape scrutiny by whining: "The laws we passed are just, good and moral; we just need to reign in over-zealous police officers." Every ten years, Congress does the same thing to rank & file ATF agents.

When you give a gung-ho person an impossible task, they usually try to accomplish it. We love that about our military, firemen and cops. Do we really want these folks to be passive when it comes to taking a hill, rescuing a child or catching a (really) bad guy? . . . I didn't think so.

In some ways Iggy's is (was) doing us a favor. If the CA ASW law is "stupid, ambiguous, and non-objective"; then the quickest way to demonstrate that fact to a judge (or voters) is to advertise the absurd and irrational applications of that law.

Nuf said.
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  #60  
Old 12-20-2008, 9:54 AM
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Originally Posted by artherd View Post
Don - see the title of my upcoming book

I have to admit though, sometimes it does feel like both Alison and Iggy are working for us.
What book? Link please.
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Donald Kilmer (Lex Arma) - Reason or force - when the first fails, the second becomes inevitable.

If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties.

Although I am a lawyer, NONE of my posts on this website are to be construed as legal advice. NONE!

P.S. I get the top bunk.
  #61  
Old 12-20-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex Arma View Post
... Singling out one police officer who is taking an aggressive position on enforcement is a distraction. It lets the real culprits escape scrutiny by whining: "The laws we passed are just, good and moral; we just need to reign in over-zealous police officers." Every ten years, Congress does the same thing to rank & file ATF agents. ...
Sir,

The "I was just following orders" defense didn't work at Nuremberg, and IMHO is equally invalid anywhere else.

This mess will stop when "rank and file" LEOs of all stripes stand up and say something to the effect of "I must respectfully decline to obey what I believe to be an illegal order."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex Arma View Post
... When you give a gung-ho person an impossible task, they usually try to accomplish it. We love that about our military, firemen and cops. Do we really want these folks to be passive when it comes to taking a hill, rescuing a child or catching a (really) bad guy? ...
Yes. If ordered to "take a hill" occupied by people who are not breaking the law, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order.

If the "child" is in no real danger, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order. The kid- (or more accurately parenting-) cops are the only ones CLOSE to the various drug- and gun-cops in terms of the miscarriages of justice they regularly inflict on good and decent people.

Catching the (really) bad guys is what they're charged (and paid) to do, and every minute they spend harassing a good person in the process of enforcing a stupid, improper law is nothing more or less than dereliction of duty. Further, I consider them morally culpable when these choices leave a REAL criminal on the street harm the law-abiding.

We have separation of powers in this nation for a reason. It really doesn't matter how out of line the legislature gets, if the executive refuses to enforce it then no harm can possibly be done. This is basic 9th-grade civics.

Further, let's face it: It's easy to go in all ninja'd up when you know the man on the other side of the door you're kicking in isn't going to shoot you. Most of them would RATHER go after "low hanging fruit" which leaves the REAL criminals free to go about their heinous business.

I am not anti-LEO, the fact is that a majority of my closest friends are LEOs of one sort or another, and every one of them have suffered some career damage because they put their conscience ahead of their wallet.

That they're not rendered unnoticeable because they're surrounded by hundreds or thousands of their peers is the biggest problem we have.

Yes - blame the legislators for passing stupid laws, but don't excuse the executors for blindly (or in truth, RABIDLY) enforcing them.

Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining, nor ask me to accept jack-boot behavior from those sworn to "protect and serve."

Respectfully,

DD
  #62  
Old 12-20-2008, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
The "I was just following orders" defense didn't work at Nuremberg, and IMHO is equally invalid anywhere else.
Except in the US Military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rules for Courts Martial, 916 (d)
Obedience to orders: It is a defense to any offense that the accused was acting pursuant to orders unless the accused knew the orders to be unlawful or a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the orders to be unlawful.
California's firearms laws are bizarre, subjective and often arbitrary. Unless it is something which it is blatantly obvious that it is wrong, you have to be given the benefit of the doubt. This should work both for the gun-owners trying to stay within the laws, and the people trying to enforce those laws when oftentimes even they don't know what the supposed intent is.

NTM
  #63  
Old 12-20-2008, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lex Arma View Post
What book? Link please.
It'll be a little while longer yet before it's published
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Last edited by artherd; 12-20-2008 at 5:21 PM..
  #64  
Old 12-20-2008, 5:49 PM
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Don,
After reading about some of Iggys testimony, I can't agree. His testimony about the alleged assault weapons at another show was IMHO stupid and silly. His allegation that some trigger group parts comprise a firearm is also way out there. I don't remember if the documentation supporting this is host by Bill W or Gene. For a guy that is charged with enforcing firearm laws, he doesn't seem to have known what he's been doing. Again, just MHO.
all the best,
Mike
  #65  
Old 12-20-2008, 7:04 PM
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Default I respectfully disagree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated_dad View Post
The "I was just following orders" defense didn't work at Nuremberg, and IMHO is equally invalid anywhere else.

This mess will stop when "rank and file" LEOs of all stripes stand up and say something to the effect of "I must respectfully decline to obey what I believe to be an illegal order."
Not all of the defendants at Nuremberg were convicted. Nor was Mr. Chinn engaged in genocide.

Refusing to obey an unlawful order is risky for soldiers and cops. They tend to get shot or lose their pensions if they guess wrong. As for these LEOs who are supposed to judge for themselves which orders they will obey and which ones they will ignore; does that include members of the executive branch who are tasked with enforcing civil rights laws? So if a U.S. Marshall is supposed to insure access to voting booths in the South circa. 1963, but he respectfully declines to obey what he believes is an illegal order, that would be a proper example of separation of powers?
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Donald Kilmer (Lex Arma) - Reason or force - when the first fails, the second becomes inevitable.

If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties.

Although I am a lawyer, NONE of my posts on this website are to be construed as legal advice. NONE!

P.S. I get the top bunk.

Last edited by Lex Arma; 12-20-2008 at 7:09 PM.. Reason: grammar
  #66  
Old 12-20-2008, 7:30 PM
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Default We agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
Don,
After reading about some of Iggys testimony, I can't agree. His testimony about the alleged assault weapons at another show was IMHO stupid and silly. His allegation that some trigger group parts comprise a firearm is also way out there. I don't remember if the documentation supporting this is host by Bill W or Gene. For a guy that is charged with enforcing firearm laws, he doesn't seem to have known what he's been doing. Again, just MHO.
all the best,
Mike
I believe you are making my point for me. CA ASW law is irrational. It is impossible to enforce. Any attempt to do so results in irrational conduct and injustice.

You said yourself (IMHO) that you had a difference of "opinion" with Mr. Chinn. Criticize his opinion. Attack his conclusions. You can even suggest that he is biased in favor of the status quo. The point I was making was that before Mr. Chinn could be personally liable, clear and convincing evidence of a kind of malice is legally (morally?) necessary.

Is it reasonable to expect every LEO to resign from their jobs, and forfeit their pensions and jobs when the legislature passes dumb laws?
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Donald Kilmer (Lex Arma) - Reason or force - when the first fails, the second becomes inevitable.

If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties.

Although I am a lawyer, NONE of my posts on this website are to be construed as legal advice. NONE!

P.S. I get the top bunk.
  #67  
Old 12-21-2008, 7:21 AM
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Default anywhere in california

so this means anywhere in california, someone with a OLL and u15 stock can not be arrested or charged with having an assault weapon?

or does someone still run the risk of being arrested by having this set up?
saying it complies with all other penal code requirements
  #68  
Old 12-21-2008, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by du9207 View Post
so this means anywhere in california, someone with a OLL and u15 stock can not be arrested or charged with having an assault weapon?

or does someone still run the risk of being arrested by having this set up?
saying it complies with all other penal code requirements
You can be arrested and charged with just about anything regardless of its underlying legality. What this shows is that a DA with a determined expert and backing couldn't meet the burden of showing that a U-15 OLL otherwise legally configured is an AW. Said differently - it is near impossible to get a conviction based on an OLL and U-15. That's aided by being able to make a dismissal in this case available to anyone who gets charged. Not only are the facts on our side but another DA, backed by DOJ BoF couldn't make a case.

I need to check into it, but I'm hoping to post a copy of the dismissal and other documents for anyone who gets an uneducated LEO or DA.

-Gene
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  #69  
Old 12-21-2008, 11:02 AM
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Thank you for all your support and guidance in having the case dismissed. Your the best. I want to thank Bill Wiese who recommended TMLLP C. D. Michell who put me in touch with Don Kilmer ( who defended me), Ivanimal (monitor), Gene Hoffman (Chairman, The Calguns Foundation), Wes Morris ( Ten Percent Guns), Ron Babcock ( Pres. Grassroots NRA Vallejo), Hector Garcia ( CWS ), Russ & Sally Nordyke ( T.S. Gun Shows) Joe Gun Guy & the Madison Society, my brother Mike (Public Defender City of brotherly love), Free and Accepted Masons of California, Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, the Law Enforcement Community at large, and many many others who supported me from Calguns. The fight is not completely over and I have the utmost confidence that Don Kilmer will obtain the release of the 47 SLR's, 5 complete upper assemblies, computer, ATF-A&D books, parts kits, bullet buttons, u-15 stock's, cash and etc.
My wife and I have always checked with Calif. D.O.J bureau of firearms for a straight answer concerning the legalities of firearms, from the Fab-Ten (CMS engine Service Co.)(mag well sealed SLR), Vulcan V15 (Mag epoxied and pinned) to firearms not on the assault weapons list. When I asked a Calif. DOJ bureau of firearms expert (Iggy) at the Vallejo Gun Show about the legalities of the U-15 stock (which wasn't even displayed, I pulled it out from a bin to show him and then put it away) he answered I have no opinion it is up to the 50 DA's and then several days later sends an undercover agent in to purchase the U-15 stock on a lower half, then 10 minutes later brings a swat team to raid my house knowing my wife was recovering from open heart surgery is unfathomable.
John Contos
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  #70  
Old 12-21-2008, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Lex Arma View Post

Before you condemn anybody in the firearm L.E. community, consider the possibility that they are charged with enforcing downright stupid, ambiguous, non-objective laws. The ASW mess in California is properly blamed on Sacramento.

The cowards we elected who passed (and/or vote for) these laws wouldn't know a machine gun from a BB gun. They just pass unenforceable irrational laws, then dump the whole mess on the other two branches of government (courts and police), then pat themselves on the back for making the world safe for flowers and puppy dogs.

If they had any guts, they would get on with trying to outlaw/confiscate ALL guns, instead of this incremental approach. I just want the cowards to volunteer to lead the troops going door to door in their own political districts for the purpose of collecting the guns. Hopefully they will wear big name tags that also show how they voted. [I'm not holding my breath.]

I agree that the blame for the passing of the AW laws rest with Sacramento, BUT, I seem to remember high ranking members of the Law Enforcement community testified in favor of those laws. Now I realize that the logical, thinking cops did not support the AW laws but ,those who matter, did. I personally spoke to my Assemblyman at the county fair to tell him my thoughts on the pending AW legislation at that time. He said that, to paraphrase, "Law Enforcement told him these types of weapons are favored by 'The Gangs'." So he was going to vote in favor of restricting them because "Law Enforcement" wanted them off the streets. We agreed to disagree. I hope this doesn't come off as anti-LEO but most of the rulers in Sacramento, like you said, don't know the difference between a BB gun and a M2 50 cal. So they look for so called gun experts, Law Enforcement, for advice. And Law Enforcement, those who matter, told them to ban them. Now we are stuck with a mess.
  #71  
Old 12-21-2008, 1:00 PM
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Don,
After reading about some of Iggys testimony, I can't agree. His testimony about the alleged assault weapons at another show was IMHO stupid and silly.
The fundamental issue about Iggy is really more about whose opinion he was tasked with attempting to enforce. He's amusing () and I've heard him attempt to manufacture evidence at least once before (video camera and supposed full auto firearm at a local range...) but on the AW mess it's not clear to me that he created the orders instead of just following them.

He's the former Special Agent at BoF. I'm more interested in the opinion makers that might still be there...

-Gene
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  #72  
Old 12-24-2008, 9:04 AM
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Yes. If ordered to "take a hill" occupied by people who are not breaking the law, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order.

If the "child" is in no real danger, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order. The kid- (or more accurately parenting-) cops are the only ones CLOSE to the various drug- and gun-cops in terms of the miscarriages of justice they regularly inflict on good and decent people.
There ought to be some kind of standard legal recourse to award punitive compensation for those people targeted by illegal and unlawful home invasions. This swat team stuff is out of control, and it's a step-child of the "drug wars" which is no more about "drugs" than is is about illegal cheese importation.

The "drug wars" have turned out to be in essence class warfare, since the big-boys rarely get caught in such swat team drug sweeps. Until that is recognized as such, police home invasions, done with absolute impunity, will go on unabated, with relatively innocent people being the victims (or scapegoats) of an overzealous -- and uninformed -- ATF, FBI, and police bureaucracy.

Certainly, illegal drug use should be controlled in some way, but the home invasion tactics used for this and for other ATF/FBI/police activities has caused irreparable harm to people who were trying to obey the law, or who happened to be near-by when a law was being broken.

Property and gun seizures and the blatant overuse of police authority in "drug war" style tactics go hand in hand. The two together need to be handled as one distinct kind of misuse of local and federal police powers.
  #73  
Old 12-24-2008, 10:50 AM
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Any one have a picture of an U-15 STOCK.

This is a great day. What legal planns are there for counter suits and the denile of civil rights and legal lawfull property.
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  #74  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:00 AM
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From California Rifles and Calguns.net forum member Grant Early.

-Gene
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  #75  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:23 AM
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Not to be a wet blanket, but isn't this a soft victory in that the DA dropped charges. It isn't like there is a ruling here. Just the absence of one. Couldn't the same attempt to prosecute be made at another time in another jurisdiction or even the same jurisdiction if the DA felt they did in fact have enough evidence?
  #76  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:26 AM
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This went far enough - and was bad enough for the DA - pretrial, that it will be an effective deterrent in this county and others.

But no it's not as good as binding case law (we'd have to loose at trial, then win on appeal.)
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  #77  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:42 AM
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Not to be a wet blanket, but isn't this a soft victory in that the DA dropped charges. It isn't like there is a ruling here. Just the absence of one. Couldn't the same attempt to prosecute be made at another time in another jurisdiction or even the same jurisdiction if the DA felt they did in fact have enough evidence?
It's hard to create binding precedent when you're doing something so obviously legal that charging against it can't get to trial.

It's not binding precedent but what do you think will happen to the next DA presented a U-15 stock and a copy of the dismissal?

-Gene
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  #78  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
It's hard to create binding precedent when you're doing something so obviously legal that charging against it can't get to trial.

It's not binding precedent but what do you think will happen to the next DA presented a U-15 stock and a copy of the dismissal?

-Gene
I realize your first point, and your second question is exactly what I was thinking. In some instance another DA is going to think the first DA caved too easily and charge forward. I certainly expect you are more right than the scenario I am thinking about.

A follow on action for some sort of unlawful prosecution would seem reasonable to me if that were possible. Otherwise the door is left open for continued harassment of OLL owners (and potentially any gun owner).

But I am not a lawyer and really don't know much about how precedent is created. Thanks for the analysis Gene.
  #79  
Old 12-24-2008, 1:25 PM
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I realize your first point, and your second question is exactly what I was thinking. In some instance another DA is going to think the first DA caved too easily and charge forward. I certainly expect you are more right than the scenario I am thinking about.
It's hard to call a stock without a hole in it a thumbhole stock. The expert's "theory" was that if you could wrap a thumb around the stock it was a thumbhole stock - which flatly contradicts the 2000 rulemaking where that definition was specifically rejected.

As we've hinted, this case is probably not over.

-Gene
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  #80  
Old 12-24-2008, 1:34 PM
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As we've hinted, this case is probably not over.
Awesome if that is the case! Again, thanks as always for helping educate us!
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