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  #1  
Old 07-19-2015, 11:59 AM
pch1911 pch1911 is offline
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Default OneDayBurroSeed - My first (but not last) Appleseed

I've been interested in attending an Appleseed event, but just couldn't commit to 2 consecutive full days, so when I read about the 1 day Appleseed that RocketMan gives at Burro Canyon I jumped at the chance to go. It was amazing. It was fun. It was enlightening. It was also very accelerated... Trying to assimilate everything being taught would be like trying to take a drink from a fire hose... But Ryan does a truly awesome job of condensing 2 days of instruction and practice into a single day without it feeling overwhelming or pressured. The thing I noticed is that you really could go at whatever pace you were comfortable with - there is no reason to try and soak up EVERYTHING if you don't want to, but since so much was being covered, you certainly could try to soak it all up if you really feel the need to push yourself. Plenty of attention to the newer shooters and enough coaching for the attendees that have done this before (I was somewhere inbetween).

I thought that since the event was only a single day, there wouldn't be time to cover very much and I should only expect to be able to get a solid grasp of two, maybe three fundamental techniques that I could practice on my own over the next few months. I really wasn't expecting to improve my shooting very much in one day, and certainly wasn't having any delusions about earning the Rifleman Patch.

I was wrong on all counts... So many fundamentals I had read about were covered (Natural point of aim, cadence, breathing cycle, trigger control-lots on this, follow through, calling shots, setting up proper positions (standing, sitting, prone), usgi sling usage, cheek weld) and practiced to the point where it the concepts were no longer theory, but actually sunk in and showed up in the actual results. As I put each concept into practice, I could see my marksmanship improving right away. And on the one and only Timed AQT I did shoot above the Rifleman score of 210 (of a possible 250).

Ryan even fixed problems with my prone position (proper cheek weld and support hand position) - my prone position used to be less accurate than my sitting position and definetly very tiring and uncomfortable. It's now much less tiring and the most accurate position for me.

If you are at all serious about improving your marksmanship, learning a bit of history, and having a great time with some really nice people I'd highly urge you to try out the one day Appleseed. It probably won't be your last... I know I'll be back for some of the others (like the Known Distance Appleseed).

Many thanks go to Ryan and David, not just for teaching me so much in one day, but for such a terrific Appleseed Experience! You'll be seing me again for sure!

Here's the first target shot before Any instruction as a baseline of marksmanship (or lack of?) stood at 8:30 a.m....



Here's the last target of the day at 4:00 p.m.... I'm missing one shot on the 400 yd target (I was getting tired and probably loaded one round short) otherwise I might have cleaned the target.


The timed AQT (much to my great surprise I did make Rifleman) to show what is possible in the single day Appleseed. I scored it 219 but Ryan found there's a couple shots that break/touch the line so it's actually 221.


I was getting pretty tired and I think I threw the very last shot to the right ... the wrong one to lose as all the shots in the last stage are doubled...

Last edited by pch1911; 07-20-2015 at 5:45 PM.. Reason: that's Ryan not Bryan
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Old 07-19-2015, 3:43 PM
Paul053 Paul053 is offline
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Rifleman on the first try?! Awesome! Been to one two day class and have been practicing to make Rifleman on my next try.
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Old 07-20-2015, 5:43 PM
pch1911 pch1911 is offline
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Thanks Paul - I just did what they taught and tried not to run out of time on each stage... not even thinking I could break 200 helped me focus on trying to do the best I could. Now though, I realize that stages 2 and 3 are the only ones where you are pressed for time... there's plenty of time on stage 4 so you can have a chance to catch your breath from the prior stages before you even fire your first shot on the last stage.

Good luck on your next Appleseed!
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Old 07-20-2015, 6:24 PM
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Old 07-20-2015, 6:32 PM
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Nice job! What rifle/caliber did you use?
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Old 07-20-2015, 9:06 PM
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Yup, nice targets. First-time Riflemen are rare but not unheard of. It took me two, back in the day...

Notice, however, what the target is saying. On the AQT:

Stage 1 is a horizontal group. Probably too much trigger finger, or you're fighting the follow-through. Beautiful breathing control, though.

Stage 2, the first (left) target shows a little muscling across the target, could be bucking (anticipating the shot) or I'm going to diagnose it as "anticipating" the shift to the right target. Hard to relax on those fast stages. On the right target, the group is open, probably eyes focused on the target instead of on the sights.

Stage 3 is actually exactly what I want to see -- three groups all similar in size, all without obvious shape issues. The first group shows your NPOA was slightly left of the target, but on a fast stage, "good enough is good enough" and if your NPOA check comes in on the black, take it. That's what you did.

Stage 4, the leftmost target is open, probably not following cadence, but the others are similar once you've settled into a calm and repeatable rhythm.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the last shot on Stage 4 is actually a double on the hit at 3 o'clock, but... who knows. Doesn't matter.

Thanks for coming out, and hope to see you again.

For those reading, would YOU like to know how to diagnose your target like the above? Then come to my class!
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Old 07-21-2015, 7:28 AM
pch1911 pch1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Nice job! What rifle/caliber did you use?
Thanks McRifle! I don't have a .22 yet, so I used a scoped AR15 (aging eyesight) with .223 handloads (55gr fmj Xtreme bullets over a medium load of Benchmark powder). Even at the lowest scope setting (4x) it was difficult to ignore the wobble when shooting standing, so if you need to use a scope I'd suggest the lowest power possible.

One thing that made a huge difference in my accuracy in Sitting and Prone is to get the sling as tight as possible- my AR has a floating rail so the sling should not have affected the POI at all. Not sure how much difference it would make it without the floating rail.
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Old 07-21-2015, 7:53 AM
pch1911 pch1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by as_rocketman View Post
Yup, nice targets. First-time Riflemen are rare but not unheard of. It took me two, back in the day...

Notice, however, what the target is saying. On the AQT:

Stage 1 is a horizontal group. Probably too much trigger finger, or you're fighting the follow-through. Beautiful breathing control, though.

Stage 2, the first (left) target shows a little muscling across the target, could be bucking (anticipating the shot) or I'm going to diagnose it as "anticipating" the shift to the right target. Hard to relax on those fast stages. On the right target, the group is open, probably eyes focused on the target instead of on the sights.

Stage 3 is actually exactly what I want to see -- three groups all similar in size, all without obvious shape issues. The first group shows your NPOA was slightly left of the target, but on a fast stage, "good enough is good enough" and if your NPOA check comes in on the black, take it. That's what you did.

Stage 4, the leftmost target is open, probably not following cadence, but the others are similar once you've settled into a calm and repeatable rhythm.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the last shot on Stage 4 is actually a double on the hit at 3 o'clock, but... who knows. Doesn't matter.

Thanks for coming out, and hope to see you again.

For those reading, would YOU like to know how to diagnose your target like the above? Then come to my class!
Thanks Rocketman - I wouldn't have even come close it if it wasn't for everything you taught during the Event.

That is amazing that you can tell all that just looking at my targets. Your assessment is dead on....

Stage 1. I was fighting the follow-through (and lots of wobble in the scope)

Stage 2. I was having problems with my transitions all day and was indeed anticipating the shift.

Stage 3. After the second stage I realized how quickly 55 seconds can go. With 65 seconds but an extra target I make a quick decision to try to establish a "good enough" NPOA on each target and as start the trigger squeeze as soon as the sights settled back on the black.

Stage 4. After Stages 2 and 3 I didn't take time to calm down before shooting the first target - after I shot the first target I took about 45 seconds to breathe and calm down before continuing. Even then I shot much faster than I should have.

It's amazing you can read the targets so well - I'm still studying the homework to try and work towards being able to read the targets better.

I'm really pleased that I can 'call my shots' pretty accurately now without looking at the target- I was shooting a Bullseye pistol match last Saturday, and for the first time I was able to call most my shots pretty accurately, so some of the rifle skills you taught definetly transfer to handgun as well!

Thanks Again RocketMan - I'll be back for sure!

Last edited by pch1911; 07-21-2015 at 7:56 AM.. Reason: misspelling
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by pch1911 View Post
Thanks McRifle! I don't have a .22 yet, so I used a scoped AR15 (aging eyesight) with .223 handloads (55gr fmj Xtreme bullets over a medium load of Benchmark powder). Even at the lowest scope setting (4x) it was difficult to ignore the wobble when shooting standing, so if you need to use a scope I'd suggest the lowest power possible.

One thing that made a huge difference in my accuracy in Sitting and Prone is to get the sling as tight as possible- my AR has a floating rail so the sling should not have affected the POI at all. Not sure how much difference it would make it without the floating rail.
Nice! I did an Appleseed last year and earned the Rifleman Patch with a 10/22 with Tech Sights. I've been thinking about setting a goal of trying to earn the Rifleman Patch with .22LR (10/22 -- done), .223 (AR15), .308 (M1A), and then .30-06 (M1 Garand). For me, it would be like "the Grand Slam." This thread has inspired me to get off my butt and sign up for Round 2.

I honestly believe that everyone should do at least one Appleseed. I support the goal of turning America back into a nation of riflemen.
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Old 07-21-2015, 12:43 PM
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For stage 3 I prefer to get a really good NPOA and then blast the sucker. Breathe fast. :-) If your NPOA is spot on you don't really have to even aim, it'll just settle right where it needs to be and you pull the trigger again without disrupting it. I found that even worked with a bolt action - if the NPOA was spot on even after racking the bolt it would come back fast and I could just crank that sucker.
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Old 07-21-2015, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pch1911 View Post
Thanks Paul - I just did what they taught and tried not to run out of time on each stage... not even thinking I could break 200 helped me focus on trying to do the best I could. Now though, I realize that stages 2 and 3 are the only ones where you are pressed for time... there's plenty of time on stage 4 so you can have a chance to catch your breath from the prior stages before you even fire your first shot on the last stage.

Good luck on your next Appleseed!
First time was on an ar lower with iron sights cmmg 22lr upper. Rifle was most capable but my eyes have a hard time focusing. Soon after that appleeed i bought a 1022 with a Simmons scope on it. Hardware solution to a software problem but I'm having an easier time consistently hitting my target.

Also i just took my first tactical carbine course and my appleseed skills helped me earn top shot out of a class of more experienced shooters.

Last edited by Paul053; 07-21-2015 at 3:15 PM..
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Old 07-23-2015, 3:56 PM
pch1911 pch1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Nice! I did an Appleseed last year and earned the Rifleman Patch with a 10/22 with Tech Sights. I've been thinking about setting a goal of trying to earn the Rifleman Patch with .22LR (10/22 -- done), .223 (AR15), .308 (M1A), and then .30-06 (M1 Garand). For me, it would be like "the Grand Slam." This thread has inspired me to get off my butt and sign up for Round 2.

I honestly believe that everyone should do at least one Appleseed. I support the goal of turning America back into a nation of riflemen.
"the Grand Slam" - using an AR15, M1a, and Garand does sound very cool!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eljay View Post
For stage 3 I prefer to get a really good NPOA and then blast the sucker. Breathe fast. :-) If your NPOA is spot on you don't really have to even aim, it'll just settle right where it needs to be and you pull the trigger again without disrupting it. I found that even worked with a bolt action - if the NPOA was spot on even after racking the bolt it would come back fast and I could just crank that sucker.
+1 on the NPOA - if it's spot on, it really does just settles back to where it needs to be and in Stage 3 with at least 2 subsequent shots, it really works well. That's great to know that you can get that to work with a bolt action!
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Old 07-23-2015, 6:33 PM
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Yeah, definitely good proof of concept. I shot five or six AQTs in the 220s so you can get very consistent once you get the rhythm down. I couldn't go higher not so much because of the bolt but because this gun has a big heavy barrel and in the wind it was acting like a sail and blowing around. It was stage 4 that was killing me - I was having to wait for a lull and sometimes they just didn't come in time.

The other thing to add to your list is to do Appleseed at longer distances. I did one with targets out to 200 and once you have your gun zeroed shooting each individual stage is just like doing it up close. But doing that is really very reassuring that the techniques are fundamental and do work. Even if you decide you don't want to do a ton of Appleseeds right away do it every year or two as a refresher and pick a gun where it seems challenging but possible to score a Rifleman score and go for it.

I'm really tempted to try it with my K11. Made in 1925, straight pull bolt action, powerful caliber. Has a six round magazine but they're super expensive and I don't own a spare so I'd have to shove four rounds back in at some point. Not sure my eyes are up to it though. I've done it with irons but my eyesight was barely up to it.

You could also just go for score but I think that's a lot less fun.

Last edited by Eljay; 07-23-2015 at 6:36 PM..
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Old 07-27-2015, 6:46 PM
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We run full distance at our Hat Creek Appleseeds. There is one left this year, on Halloween weekend. We spend all day Saturday at 25m, and then Sunday those who wish to can move over and shoot full distance AQT's(100-400yds). Saturday participation is required for Sunday full distance shooting, but trust me when I say it is a blast!

Shot my full distance rifleman with my AR15 that I built and with ammo that I reloaded, talk about an awesome feeling!

Disclamer: I am a Project Appleseed Volunteer.
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Old 08-04-2015, 12:30 PM
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This sounds like fun! I'm excited for Chabot next weekend.

Sorry to hijack, but I had a sling question that I couldn't find an answer for. Hopefully one of the AS volunteers here can help.

I bought the riflecraft RS-1 sling (http://rifle-craft.com/product/rs1-r...ed-loop-sling/) which is basically a carry sling with an open loop, so it's a lot faster to get into. 1.25", cotton, solid.

Here's my problem: I bought a 10/22 birch sporter. Unfortunately it came with sling swivels mounted into the wood and they're 1" wide.

The RS-1 does fit through, but can someone let me know if I will have any problems at Appleseed next weekend at Chabot as a result of this mismatch? Thanks.
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Old 08-05-2015, 6:04 PM
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It may be slow to slide the fat sling through the skinny swivels, so you'll have to make sure your sling adjustments are working properly... but if it fits, it should work.

Long term, plan to remove the 1" swivels and replace with proper studs. That's what I did to my Marlin 70.

Respectfully, though, the M1 GI sling (cotton) is the best field shooting sling ever, period, don't bother trying to improve it. And yes, we've seen them all. I personally have about a dozen leftover slings in my box of junk, every one of them equally or higher priced.
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Old 08-06-2015, 4:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Nice! I did an Appleseed last year and earned the Rifleman Patch with a 10/22 with Tech Sights. I've been thinking about setting a goal of trying to earn the Rifleman Patch with .22LR (10/22 -- done), .223 (AR15), .308 (M1A), and then .30-06 (M1 Garand). For me, it would be like "the Grand Slam." This thread has inspired me to get off my butt and sign up for Round 2.

I honestly believe that everyone should do at least one Appleseed. I support the goal of turning America back into a nation of riflemen.
I am sort of on a similar track, getting ready for another appleseed but with my M1 - then off to AZ for a KD with the Garand
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Old 08-08-2015, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by as_rocketman View Post
It may be slow to slide the fat sling through the skinny swivels, so you'll have to make sure your sling adjustments are working properly... but if it fits, it should work.

Long term, plan to remove the 1" swivels and replace with proper studs. That's what I did to my Marlin 70.

Respectfully, though, the M1 GI sling (cotton) is the best field shooting sling ever, period, don't bother trying to improve it. And yes, we've seen them all. I personally have about a dozen leftover slings in my box of junk, every one of them equally or higher priced.
I have the GI cotton sling and it's one of the most frustrating objects I've ever encountered because the cam buckle requires so much effort to close. Any recommendations for quickly softening the cotton? I already tried soaking it in water for a bit
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Old 08-08-2015, 5:48 PM
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I have the GI cotton sling and it's one of the most frustrating objects I've ever encountered because the cam buckle requires so much effort to close. Any recommendations for quickly softening the cotton? I already tried soaking it in water for a bit
There must be a problem with the buckle. I've owned many GI cotton slings (both 1" and 1-1/4"), and I've never had that problem. Are you running the tag end of the sling under the two metal tabs to hold it down?
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Old 08-08-2015, 9:45 PM
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I have the GI cotton sling and it's one of the most frustrating objects I've ever encountered because the cam buckle requires so much effort to close. Any recommendations for quickly softening the cotton? I already tried soaking it in water for a bit
I had a batch of Turkish surplus that was like that. Solved it by wearing down the buckle a little, opening/closing it a few dozen times with pliers.
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Old 08-11-2015, 6:27 PM
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There must be a problem with the buckle. I've owned many GI cotton slings (both 1" and 1-1/4"), and I've never had that problem. Are you running the tag end of the sling under the two metal tabs to hold it down?
Yes I am. I think the reply below recommended opening and closing a bunch of times with pliers. I will pursue that.
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Old 08-11-2015, 8:23 PM
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You also don't need the loose end of the sling pinned under the tabs. Let me find a picture... guess this will have to do:



The free end of the sling is only held down by the cam on the buckle. Some fastidious folks also tuck it through the keeper tabs to make it look neater, but you don't have to do that, and besides this way you can open the buckle by pulling the free end away from the rifle instead of breaking your fingernails on the buckle itself.

Might help.

They do get looser with usage. The sling buckle on my teaching stock is just about worn out after five years.
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