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  #1  
Old 10-18-2008, 8:49 PM
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Default Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I'm normally not the kind of guy that complains about things like this in public, but this sort of ineptitude can't go unmentioned. I don't even know where to start. But to say that this was, by far, the worst match I've ever attended, seen, heard about or read about, would be an understatement. You can read about what the match was proposed to be here. Here's an excerpt:

So, you think you are hot as a long range shooter?

Come and prove your mettle at our first ever long range shooting competition under real field conditions.

You can boast about hits on the range all you like -- that is just bluster. This competition is the real deal.

You won't be sitting at a bench or shooting at known distances or on a flat firing line.



There was nothing "sniper" about this match.
There was nothing "Xtreme" about this match.
This was hardly even a competition.
We paid 100 dollars to sit in a fixed position all day long and have people move 3 (yes, THREE) steel targets from location to location.

Let me digress. When we arrived at the shooting location, we were greeted by a group of hunters out for opening weekend of quail season. As this was BLM land, motorcycle riders and hunters were everywhere. Many times, cease fire was called on account of quads, trucks, etc in our field of fire.

After the hunters promptly left the area, we were instructed to take one piece of identifiable gear to mark a position on a hillside where we would shoot for the enitre day. We could not move from this location once we started the match (you know, 'cause snipers don't move...I guess it makes it more Xtreme). We could not use angle cosine indicators, TIS slings, or laser rangefinders because they were "just fads and real operators realize they're just gimmicks and they stick with what has worked for years," or something to that effect.

We were overlooking a valley with a road going through the bottom. Bruce held out his arms and said we needed to pick a position in which we could see "from here to here", motioning with his arms. Then he gives a brief description saying "from the road here to the road out there." Pretty exact if you ask me. So, being that my partner cancelled and I had to shoot alone, I picked out a spot that looked good to me. The targets would be placed along the road all the way down the valley. So the spot I picked offered me kneeling/sitting shots at the close stuff and a more stable prone postion for the long stuff. So after we all pick out our spots, he THEN tells us that all day we'll be shooting from the prone position.

I told him it would've been nice to know that prior to picking our spots. He said he'd "note that down for next time." From the very first stage there were competitors not able to see the targets. They were told tough luck. Must suck being a parapalegic sniper with no ability of locomotion.

So we all get into position and the 3 targets are set up from 200 to 300 yards. They are a 9"x12", an 18"x14"(or so), and an 18"x24" steel plate. We are instructed that this would be shot prone, with bipod and rear bag. Now I'm not the best shot in the world, but these seem like some awefully big targets for shooting supported prone. But I wasn't going to argue with easy points. The COF was to get 2 minutes to range the targets and then wait for your turn to fire. From there, it was 1 round for spot on the closest target (~200 yards), and then 3 rounds for score on each of the 3 targets.

After everyone completed the COF, Bruce and Co. jumped in the Jeep, went down the road and moved the targets. This time the targets were from 300 to roughly 425 or so. We had another couple minutes to range them and then shoot them exactly like the last stage. This time however, we had to use our packs as front supports. Super Xtreme, no?

So off they go again in the Jeep to move targets. This time, from what I can remember, one target is placed at around 300, one around 500 and one around 825. One of the targets is placed in a recess off the road where its not visible to 5 of us. By this time we had had just about enough of the BS and moved ourselves up the hill for a better position. We were initially told that this would be fired from an unsupported prone position. A few rounds into it, noticing no hits, he said we could use a "natural" support...like a rock, the ground, etc. We all do OK from our new position, but since we moved to be able to see the targets, we all got a zero on that stage.

Noticing the trend of more distance, less support, we figured the next COF would be off-hand, no sling to 1k, but they ended up bringing the targets back to 300-450 or so. This time it was unsupported prone. As an aside, I think I went just under 3 hours without pulling the trigger between stage 3 and stage 4. It sucked to say the least. Anyway COF was 4 rounds to each target in 2 minutes 30 seconds. It was almost more Xtreme than I could handle, but I managed.

Well thats about all I can remember. I've blocked the rest from my memory. I don't post this to rag on Bruce or Shooters-Edge, but to inform people on what they're getting into with his competitions. If you think this COF is extreme Xtreme, and its worth 100 bucks to sit out in the sun, have some guys move targets around for you, and have nothing provided for you, well, be my guest. If you've shot in good matches like Vu's, Mark's and Bill's, I think you will be left very disappointed.

My hats off to the RO's. They put in a long day's work.
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  #2  
Old 10-18-2008, 8:56 PM
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All I can say is ...WOW.
I dunno what to even say to that.

Thank you Ryan for stepping up and posting an honest AAR. I know you are not one to bi*ch about much and to have you fire it up like this things must of been XTREMELY bad. (Just teasin)

It shows people that if they come into our shooting arena..charge 100.00 per head that they need to really earn that 100.00 vs what this is..a total rip off from what I am reading.

If Bruce had any intergrity and wants to show his face in this shooting arena he would refund everyone and take the hit on his end.

Just my 2 cents from a guy that didnt have the balls to take a chance to make the trip..i am a not extreme..just a regular ole trigger puller on a square range with no braggin rights.

Vu
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  #3  
Old 10-18-2008, 9:07 PM
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Well alrighty then.

Vu did not have the best day at our milsurp rifle match today, but it sounds like he had way more fun than you did.

Maybe the MD will learn from this, but he might have a hard time getting people to try it again.

ETA: 3 HOURS without pulling the trigger? WTH?
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Last edited by Pthfndr; 10-18-2008 at 9:09 PM..
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  #4  
Old 10-18-2008, 9:08 PM
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I'll just say a short note . . . Ryan pretty well summed it up . . . I'm not going to rag as I know after my matches I read the forums like an actor reads Variety to see the reveiws . . . I'll just say that even though I hate square ranges and love field shooting there has to be a essence of fairness and organization when you set up a match, even under field conditions . . . and that was lacking.
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  #5  
Old 10-18-2008, 9:12 PM
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Right from the getko, it wasn't fair from any position you were shooting. the guys that won, had the best field of view and were completely flat. joe and i were shooting on rock chips on a downward slope of 25degrees. some guys were shooting flat, but had no field of view on some shots. that's just how it was.
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Old 10-18-2008, 9:15 PM
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I guess todays Zoo trip was better then shooting for one time. 3.00 VS 100.00, Plus I got to see some babes.....
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Old 10-18-2008, 9:16 PM
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Right from the getko, it wasn't fair from any position you were shooting. the guys that won first place had the best field of view and were completely flat. joe and i were shooting on rock chips on a downward slope of 25degrees which was the most difficult to shoot from. some guys were shooting flat, but had no field of view on some shots. that's just how it was. there are variables too like the wind. some shot in close to 20mph winds while some shot in 10mph winds, but that's how it goes.

the fact of matter is, it's his match. he can do whatever he wants. we also can do whatever we want with our money. plain and simple.

in the end, it was fun for me. i was hot and tired, but shooting is still always fun for me but it was not a $100 worth of fun.

Last edited by PistolPete75; 10-18-2008 at 9:19 PM..
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  #8  
Old 10-18-2008, 9:31 PM
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Bummer deal you guys didnt have more fun........You can always come to a great match in NorCal the first weekend of the month....
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:32 PM
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Yes you did post this to rag on Bruce and Shooters-Edge, and rightfully so, for 100 bucks should be a lot more than that... I wouldnt have fired one round and packed up left home and asked for my money back.

This is Bruce's / SE's match, they needed to put on a match that is on par with their training... hmm maybe they did.
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  #10  
Old 10-18-2008, 10:33 PM
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Here are the only 2 pics I snapped:



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Old 10-18-2008, 10:36 PM
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come on now, where are all the pics, sounds like you couldnt shoot much anyways because of no FOV... should have plenty of time for pics of the brush/rocks around you
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:46 PM
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Well, pics of the same 3 targets and same firing positions would get boring, so I didn't waste my time. I took a nap instead.
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
Well, pics of the same 3 targets and same firing positions would get boring, so I didn't waste my time. I took a nap instead.
A nap is never time wasted
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Old 10-18-2008, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
Well, pics of the same 3 targets and same firing positions would get boring, so I didn't waste my time. I took a nap instead.
I also had some quality afternoon nap time while waiting to shoot the 4th stage.
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Old 10-19-2008, 3:31 AM
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Well that sounds like it was not even close to what was posted -To All,

I would like to thank everyone for your interest.

The reason for limiting to 308 is to level the playing field ballistically. I once shot in a competition where all 308s were grouped with 300 Win Mags and 338 Lapuas. None of the 308s placed in the top 10. So, this is not ballistically level. Only true 308.

This is meant to be a very tactical shoot. When you are hanging off a hillside,
shooting down into a valley at an extreme angle, having short time limits to mil the targets, and to shoot, you will be challenged. I did a test of some of the relays with a few guys and I can tell you that if you don't know your stuff, you won't do well.


As far as my hype, there are far too many jokers who think they are good shooters because they can shoot to 800 yards at known distances off benches with wind flags. Frankly, they won't cut it. So, I was trying to challenge some of them to attend. If you took it badly, get a thick skin. This competition is NOT about catering to your sensitive feelings.Finally, I have had a few e-mails about my background. I will be placing a short bio on my web page. I will post a link here. For the record, I have never claimed to be an operator. I have claimed to have taken multiple LE sniper classes and the Marine Sniper training at Pendleton, as well as taught
there on a part time basis. I have also taught many LE snipers -- don't always publicize this -- as well as operators and many civilians in all walks of life. I will go through all of this in my web post.

Am I the real deal? Talk to anyone who has taken my classes. I am thorough, detailed, tell lots of stories about my training experiences (at least), and give a lot of value for the money I charge. I do know what I am talking about and can sucessfully convey that information to others.

After you have read my bio, you can decide for yourself.

Like everything I do, I am anal retentive and have planned the firing sequences, shooting restrictions, and logistics down to a nat's ***. That's what you want from a professionally run competition. I have given lots of training out in the area, know it well, and know how to make your life miserable during the competition.
Hope this answers any questions. Will get the bio posted next week.
Hope you will take the time to read it.

Bruce Krell



If my partner and I had attended to this mess, we would be pissed and want to know where all the money went. This kind of action has the potential to hurt future matches run by good MD's.

Bill, if you can, contact him and see if this Xtreme sniper instructor and shooter will come to your($25.00 ) match and show shoot.

You think those prize coins were cheap?
Is it all about money for you?
And everyone who registers and pays by October 6 gets a t-shirt.



Bruce

Yes I do think those coins are inexpensive and so are t-shirts.









Gentelman, Bruce is a good guy and he knows his trash. You guys are making such a big deal when someone is trying to just put on a fun get together. Stop giving him trash and either sign up, bring your gear and send rounds down range or just dont sign up. Bruce shouldnt have to give you his SRBs so you can enjoy a fun shooting meet. What happend to just supporting your fellow gun owners and just enjoying shooting? eyesfromafar

This is why people like Vu are smart enough to ask questions and want know his SRBs,qualifications, how the money is spent....

as 4thseal wrote, I wonder what his classes are like?

Sorry about the ramblings but I hate to see this happen to our sport,especially when everyone in Cali wants to have a couple of big matches every year in our own backyard.

Last edited by DON AUGUSTINE; 10-19-2008 at 3:37 AM..
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  #16  
Old 10-19-2008, 6:16 AM
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Don,

+1 It really does hurt our shooting sport when some yahoo rips off folks like this.

I wouldnt even want to think what you and Mike would of said if you guys would have gone to this event.

Comments like this is what I got from Bruce:

"The fact that I am not mentioned in the Tactical Long Range Community
is simply an indication that you guys are in your own little cocoon."

This is what your 100.00 was for:
As far as the fee is concerned, the fact that this competition is on
BLM land is part of what drives the cost. I have to have help, which
I have to pay, there is some equipment I have to partially pay for,
such as the metal targets used, I have to pay all of the expenses
for myself and the assistants -- gas, hotel, food, etc.. And, then, there is the cost of the
coins and the t-shirts. None of this is free. And, I have to compensate
for the lack of facilities by "creating" my own facilities."

I would think 100.00 per head would justified more than 3 targets.


"I don't have a problem with your asking questions.
I think some of them are inappropriate -- like the one about the
costs -- which honestly is none of your business. I answered
anyway out of courtesy."

As a consumer I believe we all have the right to see what our money is buying. Doesn't look like Bruce feels this way.

"Welcome to the real world
of sniping.

This is pretty close to the final phase of shooting.
This is very very tough. If all of your competitions have
been on flat shooting ranges with nice flat firing lines
you will be screwed."

Yah well doesn't look like I was the one screwed....more like the competitors in this event.

Right now Right here...I would like to invite Bruce to next years TBRC. Since we shoot on a square range he should be able to clean house and take home first with no problems.

Bruce...165.00 will get you in. We feed ya, we give you liquids to drink and you can show us that us how easy it is to shoot on a square range.

May 30th and 31st of 2009. I hope we see you on our firing line with this far of advance notice.
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Old 10-19-2008, 6:40 AM
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Thanks for the comments Don. I'm glad I didn't drag you out to this joke.

Vu-thanks for more info on what this clown is really doing. If this is "nat's a**", he's got a lot to learn.
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Old 10-19-2008, 6:56 AM
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I took Bruce's Long Range Rifle and Precision Ballistics 1 class this past July. It was a 2-day course where we learned basics of known-distance long-range shooting. The first day where we were at Angeles was pretty excellent, I felt like I learned a lot... IE how to properly dial in the scope, establish mechanical zero, get dope for varying ranges. The second day we went to Mojave to do known-distance shooting on his steel targets. Day 2 was not nearly as good as day 1... too many mishaps and problems and we spent most of the day laying around in prone position. In eight hours on Day 2, I think I probably fired 20 rounds.

I was actually debating coming to this match. I am glad I saved the 100 bucks and ammo.
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Old 10-19-2008, 9:08 AM
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wtf Vu,

Before letting this guy into the show, have him come to our 1k/steel match. He might be a good shooter but if he is a tool (just guessing by his responses to you), why even bother wasting a spot at the TBRC.
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Old 10-19-2008, 9:40 AM
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Jason,

It is worth it to me to see what the man that claim square ranges aren't sh*t can do. He is highly trained so this should be a cake walk.
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Old 10-19-2008, 9:52 AM
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On one hand he says that you have to shoot 308Win to be fair to everyone, then on the other he sets the targets so that some people can't see them because that's "Xtreme". Then if you move position (like a real sniper) you are disqualified.

When I saw this "match" posted originally it sounded to tacticool for my taste, I'm sorry that see that I was correct.
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Old 10-19-2008, 10:00 AM
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Frank, there was nothing realistic about this match at all. For a match that was purported to be the real deal, it was a colossal letdown. I think we've all posted these things to mostly warn others about what really goes on.

Lots of guys out there selling snake oil. Beware.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:17 PM
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My questions where answered via email. No reason to leave up

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Old 10-19-2008, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PistolPete75 View Post
Right from the getko, it wasn't fair from any position you were shooting. the guys that won, had the best field of view and were completely flat. joe and i were shooting on rock chips on a downward slope of 25degrees. some guys were shooting flat, but had no field of view on some shots. that's just how it was.

You know, that's just utter BS. We chose a decent position, just as you could have. We you assigned a position? Nope. It was YOUR choice. Bruce said "Choose your positions carefully!" Some people chose a flat position, but we did not. We were off on the side of that hill, just like a lot of other people. Your statement is false.



Bruce was VERY clear about where the targets would be, sorry some people didn't pick up on that. The match wasn't perfect, there was room for improvement, but all in all I thought it was easily worth the price of admission. Considering Bruce had enlisted the help of four really cool and really professional people to help him organize, set up, manage, and referee this event it was a bargain. It was a BEAUTIFUL spot, a gorgeous day, challenging conditions, and short time limits. People didn't score as well as they hoped. I know I missed a LOT.











And another thing, neither myself or my partner were the best shooters in the group. We were just lucky enough to have shot equally well, and the best shooters didn't necessarily win because it was a TEAM competition.

It wasn't an accident. My shooting partner and I have taken a lot of time, energy, and money to practice as much as possible, and shoot decently. I love shooting, and we thought this would be a lot of fun and a great challenge. We spent hours on the phone talking about approaches to this competition. WE WORKED HARD. You should apologize for making it out as though it was us receiving some kind of handout that you yourself were arbitrarily locked out of. It's just not true, and it speaks volumes about you.

EVERYONE had to deal with difficulties on that hill. What would work for one relay, wouldn't work for another. Wind conditions were very variable. Shooting was often uncomfortable. Positions mattered.

Last edited by SoundFX; 10-19-2008 at 12:23 PM..
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:24 PM
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Your not kidding are you?
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:26 PM
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I'm afraid not Adam.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:27 PM
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nice pictures at least someone found the time between COF to take some extra pics... :P
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:31 PM
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I will make you all a deal.... Im shure I can talk ryan into helping me put you on a match and BBQ. I will have ladies to cook while we shoot. Ryan has a spot, we can combine our steel. Hell entry fee is a spliting food how ever many ways......
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundFX View Post
The match wasn't perfect, there was room for improvement, but all in all I thought it was easily worth the price of admission.
Apparently you've never seen what 150 dollars will get you at a good match. Bills matchs are 25 bucks and infinitely better than this was.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:34 PM
SoundFX SoundFX is offline
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Sorry you guys didn't have a good time. I thought it was cool, and others did too. My partner and I didn't think we had a chance in hell of winning, but we really put the effort in. Maybe you should design a match. I'll pay $100 to attend yours too. If it's better, I'll say so honestly.


ETA - I was responding when you guys were talking about making your own match. Well, we're on the same page then.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:37 PM
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I see Randall sleeping on the hill. he didnt happin to roll away right?
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:37 PM
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Old 10-19-2008, 1:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thSeal View Post
nice pictures at least someone found the time between COF to take some extra pics... :P
Several people were taking pictures. And thanks.... I think.
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Old 10-19-2008, 1:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundFX View Post
notice that's my black rifle on the bottom of the photo. i was shooting in the steepest decline out of anyone. joe had to haul in rocks from around the area to be able to shoot.

i had fun at the match. i always have fun shooting, and i met two really cool guys at the match and spent alot of time talking to them. but it was not worth the dough.

i'm just saying, there was advantages and disadvantages from where you picked your spot. shooting comfortable makes a huge difference, and being able to see your shot makes a huge difference.

Last edited by PistolPete75; 10-19-2008 at 1:19 PM..
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Old 10-19-2008, 1:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundFX View Post
You know, that's just utter BS. We chose a decent position, just as you could have. We you assigned a position? Nope. It was YOUR choice. Bruce said "Choose your positions carefully!" Some people chose a flat position, but we did not. We were off on the side of that hill, just like a lot of other people. Your statement is false.



Bruce was VERY clear about where the targets would be, sorry some people didn't pick up on that. The match wasn't perfect, there was room for improvement, but all in all I thought it was easily worth the price of admission. Considering Bruce had enlisted the help of four really cool and really professional people to help him organize, set up, manage, and referee this event it was a bargain. It was a BEAUTIFUL spot, a gorgeous day, challenging conditions, and short time limits. People didn't score as well as they hoped. I know I missed a LOT.











And another thing, neither myself or my partner were the best shooters in the group. We were just lucky enough to have shot equally well, and the best shooters didn't necessarily win because it was a TEAM competition.

It wasn't an accident. My shooting partner and I have taken a lot of time, energy, and money to practice as much as possible, and shoot decently. I love shooting, and we thought this would be a lot of fun and a great challenge. We spent hours on the phone talking about approaches to this competition. WE WORKED HARD. You should apologize for making it out as though it was us receiving some kind of handout that you yourself were arbitrarily locked out of. It's just not true, and it speaks volumes about you.

EVERYONE had to deal with difficulties on that hill. What would work for one relay, wouldn't work for another. Wind conditions were very variable. Shooting was often uncomfortable. Positions mattered.
third picture from the bottom, left side was the perfect position. clear sight and flat shooting support.
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Old 10-19-2008, 1:25 PM
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Because most of these comments are unjustified, I was going to post a lengthy response to the comments on this forum. However, on second thought, it's not worth it. (I mean the 10 page response that I drafted.)

I have no problems with CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. I self criticise and revise quite a bit after every shooting activity that I conduct. I made hundreds of notes during the competition about changes that I will be making for the next time.

There seems to be some feeling that in order to be extreme you have to be humping. Sorry, pure BS. It's mostly about picking the shooting platform and getting the first round hit without mechanical aids and compensating for things like wind, extreme angles.

I don't recall any statement in the announcement that you'd be humping. The focus is on the last two phases. If you go back to my announcement, you will see the conditions that I announced and everyone was stressed under all of these. It showed -- see the comments on the scores below.

As far as the scramble, I warned everyone that they had to have a clear position to shoot to all elements of the road.Some people made bad decisions even after the warning. I had no obligation to tell anyone that all shots would be prone. A person who had taken the training would know that you try to shoot prone all the time and would try to get a clear view of the road from a prone position.

NO ONE SHOT WELL. The HIGHEST score was 25/40 shots or 62.5%. So, NONE of you guys shot worth crap. The average score was 20/40 or 50%. That means if you competed, you had a 50% chance of getting a first round hit. The requirement at the sniper school on a flat range is 100%. If it was so easy, how come the scores were so low?

The reviewer complained about only 3 targets. It's not the number of targets but how difficult to get the hits. Plus, I wasn't going to plant the targets and leave my $1000 worth of custom targets out in the desert unattended. The distances that the reviewer states were all wrong -- maybe that's why he didn't hit many of those targets. Before you criticise, you really do have to get the hits.

My restriction on mechanical devices was pre-anounced. If he didn't like it, he shouldn't have shown up.

As far as the value, well, I spent about 60 hours planning this (including a 25 page competition plan), about 6 hours getting all the equipment together(we had a lot of recovery equipment in case a vehicle broke), and about 12 hours on the day of the competition. Getting 20 guys out to a remote set, having them each shoot 40 rounds, under very extreme downhill, windy conditions in a safe manner, and have everything go smoothly is a complex task. I did all this. Want to know how much I made for all that effort: $0! That's right, the cost of everything ate me alive. I did all that work for free.

This is real simple. You guys can think whatever you want.
Frankly, I don't give a rat's ***.

I know what I've done before this competition.
I know I delivered what I promised on the flyer.

Don't come back. Many people will but I'll do the thing with
only 6 people if need be.

Bruce
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Old 10-19-2008, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PistolPete75 View Post
third picture from the bottom, left side was the perfect position. clear sight and flat shooting support.

It was not flat. Yes, we had a good field of view. THAT WAS THE POINT! When you chose your position, did you purposefully select a spot with an obscured view of the area along which you were clearly told the targets would be located? Well, uh, judging from your post, yes you did.... So that's Bruce's fault?

Bruce said that the targets would be located along the path of that road on the opposing side of the canyon. And they were. Why on Earth did you choose a such bad position, only to complain about it here as if it wasn't YOUR choice? Sour grapes? Puhlease.

Last edited by SoundFX; 10-19-2008 at 2:02 PM..
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Old 10-19-2008, 1:45 PM
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Sounds like another "area 51" shoot is long overdue. I will suppy all the steel targets needed
That looks like a good spot.
Great pics.
Anyone know the GPS coordinates?
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Old 10-19-2008, 1:49 PM
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we got the gps coordinates. shoot a pm to ar15barrels.

by the way, i have no sour grapes. frankly all this drama is just drama to me. my family comes first, and shooting is on the back burner.

a combination of serious shooters and a definition of precision rifle shooting is just too much for me. i'm gonna do more informal shooting like the old days and drink a few cold ones after. that makes me still like shooting.
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Old 10-19-2008, 1:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvshooter View Post
Sounds like another "area 51" shoot is long overdue. I will suppy all the steel targets needed
That looks like a good spot.
Great pics.
Anyone know the GPS coordinates?

At least someone is comfortable bringing their 1000$ custom steel targets out and leaving them down range
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