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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 12-13-2014, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jmf_tracy View Post
OK, not disagreeing.
for me the fluted barrel is fine.
Its ok to say its because its fashion over function.
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  #42  
Old 12-13-2014, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
You are confusing accuracy with precision.
Longer barrels are absolutely more accurate because they have less wind deflection.
Accuracy = Distance shot lands from aiming point.
Precision = Dispersion of shots.
I know know difference. So take the wind out of the equation. how is the longer barrel more accurate?

IMO
Precision comes from the rifle.
Accuracy comes form the shooter.
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  #43  
Old 12-13-2014, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickmcu View Post
So take the wind out of the equation. how is the longer barrel more accurate?
I don't shoot on indoor ranges.
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  #44  
Old 12-13-2014, 10:53 PM
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I don't shoot on indoor ranges.
I gotcha Randall. And I respect your opinion and experience. No disrespect.
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  #45  
Old 12-14-2014, 4:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jmf_tracy View Post
it is only $150 more that the standard 5R config. I think it is a bargain considering the upgrades. i like the fluted barrel for weight savings and faster cooling. I will be putting a JEC brake on it as well. also bought the HS Precision bottom metal and 5 & 10 round mags.
I have also considered converting the BDL to the Gen II HS precision DBM on a 700P, but I can't find too many reviews on it and the few I have found contradict each other. If, once you're done converting and have spent some time with it, you wouldn't mind doing a write up on the quality, construction, feeding/functionality of HS precision DBM system I'm sure there are a few of us that would appreciate it.
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  #46  
Old 12-14-2014, 7:54 AM
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I have also considered converting the BDL to the Gen II HS precision DBM on a 700P, but I can't find too many reviews on it and the few I have found contradict each other. If, once you're done converting and have spent some time with it, you wouldn't mind doing a write up on the quality, construction, feeding/functionality of HS precision DBM system I'm sure there are a few of us that would appreciate it.
I will give it a try. the only reason that i went with the HS Precision DBM is that it is a HS Precision stock and it will readily accept without having to machine it out otherwise i would have went with something cheaper that uses AICS mags. I am sure HS Precision will function just fine.
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  #47  
Old 12-14-2014, 9:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Thorax View Post
If a 7mm kicks too hard maybe you should consider a nice 22 ?
Only with a recoil pad.

But cereal, how many rounds can you put down range with a 7mm in a day? With a .308 I can have a good day with 50-100 rounds. 7mm it's like 10-20. Too old to play "quienes mas macho". I'd much rather be a better shot with a smaller caliber than be a terrible shot but a range tough guy.

Got to shoot a 500 something or other handgun a few weeks back. Helluva gun. Probably kill with a near miss but no way in hell would I ever buy such a hand cannon.
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  #48  
Old 12-14-2014, 10:54 AM
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Gotta agree with Thorax. A .308 feels like shooting a BB gun after shooting magnums. Heck, sometimes I gotta look down my barrel to make sure I didn't squib when shooting those BB guns.
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  #49  
Old 12-14-2014, 11:32 AM
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We could but it's a boring subject really, Ho hum!
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  #50  
Old 12-14-2014, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Echidin View Post
I have also considered converting the BDL to the Gen II HS precision DBM on a 700P, but I can't find too many reviews on it and the few I have found contradict each other. If, once you're done converting and have spent some time with it, you wouldn't mind doing a write up on the quality, construction, feeding/functionality of HS precision DBM system I'm sure there are a few of us that would appreciate it.
When I got started in precision rifles, I used an HS precision DBM setup (against everyone's advice) for the same reason (drop-in) as everyone else.
The issues I ran into were also the same as everyone else.
The mags are only available in 4 or 10 round instead of 5 and 10 round.
The mags are exorbitantly expensive.
The mags are often difficult to obtain.
Nobody else uses HS mags so if you needed to borrow a mag at a match, you are SOL.

In the end, I sold off my HS precision DBM and mags at a significant loss and went to AICS compatible setup.
This was a while ago before PTG was selling AICS compatible bottom metal for $99.
Nowadays, it's a total no-brainer.
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  #51  
Old 12-14-2014, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickmcu View Post
I know know difference. So take the wind out of the equation. how is the longer barrel more accurate?...
A stiffer barrel will group better but a short barrel looses velocity. At a certain point you need a longer barrel to get more velocity. If the barrel was both long and stiff (relatively speaking) you would have trouble lifting it out of the car. So barrel length and weight is always a compromise.
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  #52  
Old 12-14-2014, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
When I got started in precision rifles, I used an HS precision DBM setup (against everyone's advice) for the same reason (drop-in) as everyone else.
The issues I ran into were also the same as everyone else.
The mags are only available in 4 or 10 round instead of 5 and 10 round.
The mags are exorbitantly expensive.
The mags are often difficult to obtain.
Nobody else uses HS mags so if you needed to borrow a mag at a match, you are SOL.

In the end, I sold off my HS precision DBM and mags at a significant loss and went to AICS compatible setup.
This was a while ago before PTG was selling AICS compatible bottom metal for $99.
Nowadays, it's a total no-brainer.
Thanks, Randall. Maybe I'll hold off a bit and convert to a AICS compatible system when I upgrade stocks.
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  #53  
Old 12-14-2014, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
In the end, I sold off my HS precision DBM and mags at a significant loss and went to AICS compatible setup.
This was a while ago before PTG was selling AICS compatible bottom metal for $99.
Nowadays, it's a total no-brainer.
When AI has a viable option, it's virtually ALWAYS a no brainer to use them. Their rifles are a bit expensive, but for good reason. Meanwhile, do to an economy of scale that has evolved, they make great accessories for a very reasonable cost, mags, slings, mounts, etc...AI is a good value. There's no manufacturer that I'd rely more on than AI. You just don't hear about a lot of Accuracy International horror stories because they make great stuff.
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  #54  
Old 12-14-2014, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mike_the_wino View Post
Actually I was thinking 20-22", especially after reading the long distance rifle thread. Not likely that I will be taking any 1,000 yard shots. But accuracy is always nice.
You might not be taking 1,000 yard shots. But 600? Sure you will. And once you do, you'll want to try 800.... And it goes on.

But, I have to ask; how many rooms do you plan to clear with a bolt gun? Many less rooms than times you'd ever shoot the rifle long distance. So, I purpose it for that. 24" is what I shoot and will recommend.
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  #55  
Old 12-15-2014, 8:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Standish View Post
But, I have to ask; how many rooms do you plan to clear with a bolt gun? Many less rooms than times you'd ever shoot the rifle long distance.
IDK, when the zombies attack I might be forced to. When I shot the barrels out of all my other guns.

Quote:
So, I purpose it for that. 24" is what I shoot and will recommend.
I'd like for pigs as well so humping this thing around is a bit of a consideration. I'll go check with my LGS. Maybe they have 5r vs. SPS varmint that I can fondle. And local ranges don't go past 400 yards.
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  #56  
Old 12-15-2014, 6:19 PM
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A stiffer barrel will group better but a short barrel looses velocity. At a certain point you need a longer barrel to get more velocity. If the barrel was both long and stiff (relatively speaking) you would have trouble lifting it out of the car. So barrel length and weight is always a compromise.
The shorter one will be stiffer or more rigid. Not the longer one, assuming all other factors are the same (contour, quality, caliber, ect). But we were not debating the point of a stiff barrel vs a less stiff barrel. We were debating weather a longer barrel was more accurate than a shorter barrel. IMO I do not believe that you can say just because a barrel is longer or shorter it is more accurate or less accurate. Although I see Randall's point that a longer barrel yields more velocity therefore it minimizes shooter error by bucking the wind better.
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  #57  
Old 12-15-2014, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickmcu View Post
The shorter one will be stiffer or more rigid. Not the longer one, assuming all other factors are the same (contour, quality, caliber, ect). But we were not debating the point of a stiff barrel vs a less stiff barrel. We were debating weather a longer barrel was more accurate than a shorter barrel. IMO I do not believe that you can say just because a barrel is longer or shorter it is more accurate or less accurate. Although I see Randall's point that a longer barrel yields more velocity therefore it minimizes shooter error by bucking the wind better.
Stiffer barrels are more precise.
Longer barrels buck the wind better so they will be more practically accurate.
Longer barrels also reduce elevation error due to miscalculation of the range to target as they shoot flatter.



Another good example of precision vs accuracy:



The 3 shots at 500yds were more accurate while the 3 shots at 600 were more precise.
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  #58  
Old 12-15-2014, 7:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickmcu View Post
The shorter one will be stiffer or more rigid. Not the longer one, assuming all other factors are the same (contour, quality, caliber, ect). But we were not debating the point of a stiff barrel vs a less stiff barrel. We were debating weather a longer barrel was more accurate than a shorter barrel. IMO I do not believe that you can say just because a barrel is longer or shorter it is more accurate or less accurate. Although I see Randall's point that a longer barrel yields more velocity therefore it minimizes shooter error by bucking the wind better.
Also remember this is why you hand load. To find a load that works well with your rifle. To take out the extra whip.
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  #59  
Old 12-15-2014, 7:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Stiffer barrels are more precise.
Longer barrels buck the wind better so they will be more practically accurate.
Longer barrels also reduce elevation error due to miscalculation of the range to target as they shoot flatter.



Another good example of precision vs accuracy:



The 3 shots at 500yds were more accurate while the 3 shots at 600 were more precise.

The way you said it there "more practically accurate" makes perfect sense. And I also mixed up the words precise and accurate in my last post so could have got confusing. Longer barrels are more practically accrate. I hear what you saying and that makes sense to me. Interesting topic. Like talking this stuff.

And also. Handloading?? What's that? I just shoot military surplus ball all in my precision rifle. Jkjk!!
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  #60  
Old 12-15-2014, 8:37 PM
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A stiffer barrel will group better but a short barrel looses velocity. At a certain point you need a longer barrel to get more velocity...
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Originally Posted by Rickmcu View Post
...IMO I do not believe that you can say just because a barrel is longer or shorter it is more accurate or less accurate...
For any given weight, shorter (stiffer) is better. If you calculate the moment of inertia you will see the short barrel has a higher resonant frequency and a lower deflection. The shorter stiffer barrel is better up until the loss of velocity affects down range bullet performance. That's when we need to add barrel length and compromise the stiffness.
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Old 12-16-2014, 10:24 AM
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Russ again im not debating whether a shorter barrel is stiffer. I already know that to be true. Its getting to the point now where i think we're saying close to the same thing 3 different ways. The only thing i was trying to say is that i don't think i will ever say as a stone cold fact, that a longer barrel is more "accurate". Because wind is NOT a constant. sometimes there is ZERO wind, And shooting indoor there is no wind. Therefore, there are certain times where a longer barrel is no more accurate than a shorter barrel. But like i said earlier a longer barrel yields more velocity therefore it minimizes shooter error by bucking the wind better. We all agree on that. If you want to call that more "practically accurate" thats fine.
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  #62  
Old 12-16-2014, 10:46 AM
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...And shooting indoor there is no wind...
Are you sure you are in the right forum? This is the rifle forum. I know of no indoor ranges that are long enough to make barrel length an issue, unless it's for a longer sight radius on a gallery rifle.
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  #63  
Old 12-16-2014, 10:52 AM
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Therefore, there are certain times where a longer barrel is no more accurate than a shorter barrel.
Virgil King and Bob Fisher found the most accurate length to be 21-3/4" with a 22ppc. At that point it's a physics discussion, not a practical one. I'll be shocked if anyone can replicate their experiments in my lifetime.
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Old 12-16-2014, 12:11 PM
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Virgil King and Bob Fisher found the most accurate length to be 21-3/4" with a 22ppc. At that point it's a physics discussion, not a practical one. I'll be shocked if anyone can replicate their experiments in my lifetime.
Oh man, I wish I could have been around to shoot on their 300 yard indoor range. Those guys learned so much, so fast, on that range and all they had to give up was 4 nights of sleep a week. :-)

To the OP - "What should I get?" is closely tied to "What do I want to do?"

What do you want to do?
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Old 12-16-2014, 12:14 PM
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The only thing i was trying to say is that i don't think i will ever say as a stone cold fact, that a longer barrel is more "accurate".
In theory, sometimes it will be. With a given cartridge, you may need to shoot a very long barrel to stabilize a given bullet; whereas, you'd have to increase the thrust of the charge to attain the same results in a short barrel. This may not produce good results if you are operating at already high pressures. At lower velocities, sometimes it may not be sufficient to merely speed up the twist rate in length to get the results you desire. Velocity matters as it speeds up the twist rate as a function of time. I tend to prefer long heavy barrels with a slower twist rate.

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At that point it's a physics discussion, not a practical one.
Physics can get you very close to the right answer, but the variables needed to model the system become overly complex. In the real world, theory has its limitations. Nonlinear systems are a ***** to model, and commonly done so with numeric approximations. That's why you'd make your ultimate decisions based on empirical data, not just physical theory. But, you use the physical theory to get you as close as possible first.
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  #66  
Old 12-16-2014, 2:21 PM
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The only thing i was trying to say is that i don't think i will ever say as a stone cold fact, that a longer barrel is more "accurate". Because wind is NOT a constant. sometimes there is ZERO wind, And shooting indoor there is no wind.
So you are throwing out 95% of reality to select the 5% of reality where you are actually right?
We must be on calguns...

Sometimes, you can shoot in outer space and there is no gravity.
Therefore, ballistic calculators are wrong.
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  #67  
Old 12-16-2014, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Sometimes, you can shoot in outer space and there is no gravity.
Therefore, ballistic calculators are wrong.
Wow, what kind of low-end ballistic calculators are you folks using? It isn't integrated with a gravimeter? Try these guys; they are local:
http://www.gwrinstruments.com/about.html
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  #68  
Old 01-07-2015, 11:47 AM
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700 SPS .308 26" Barrel 12 twist good to go.
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  #69  
Old 01-07-2015, 1:44 PM
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So.......... What is the length of barrel a guy that wants to shoot long range should look at? If I have no smart car, and if I do not shoot in space or at a indoor range, and if a longer barrel is more accurate, then what is the proper or desirable length or barrel?
When I look at replacement barrels for sale, they offer several different lengths, which is best?
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Old 01-07-2015, 3:14 PM
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So.......... What is the length of barrel a guy that wants to shoot long range should look at? If I have no smart car, and if I do not shoot in space or at a indoor range, and if a longer barrel is more accurate, then what is the proper or desirable length or barrel?
When I look at replacement barrels for sale, they offer several different lengths, which is best?
24" minimum, 26" would be better.
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Old 01-07-2015, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Lucky Scott View Post
So.......... What is the length of barrel a guy that wants to shoot long range should look at? If I have no smart car, and if I do not shoot in space or at a indoor range, and if a longer barrel is more accurate, then what is the proper or desirable length or barrel?
When I look at replacement barrels for sale, they offer several different lengths, which is best?
26"
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  #72  
Old 01-07-2015, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
So you are throwing out 95% of reality to select the 5% of reality where you are actually right?
We must be on calguns...

Sometimes, you can shoot in outer space and there is no gravity.
Therefore, ballistic calculators are wrong.
Hahaha, yea that's going in the sig
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So you are throwing out 95% of reality to select the 5% of reality where you are actually right?
We must be on calguns...
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Old 01-07-2015, 8:25 PM
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So.......... What is the length of barrel a guy that wants to shoot long range should look at?
You want a barrel long enough so that your bullet stays comfortably supersonic at the range you want to shoot under 'bad' conditions - like a cold, dry day, at sea level. That will be between 20" and 30" depending on what you are doing.

Or do what Randall said and get a 26" Medium/Heavy Palma contour barrel chambered for your favorite 6mm or 6.5mm cartridge. Gee, I wonder where that advice comes from...
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