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  #121  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:30 PM
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You're sure? Do you have any statistics to back that up? Or even anecdotal stories? I don't have any.
I am positive. Do you need statistics proving that gas is flammable?
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  #122  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:31 PM
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1986, Miami, FL. This could've turned out differently
For every time you name, the military, who actually studied this for years, can show you many more where the 9mm was a better choice. Nothing is perfect and if you cherry pick, you can always find the exception, but overall, 9mm is the right choice for a general service pistol. And combat has proven that over and over.
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  #123  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:33 PM
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I am positive. Do you need statistics proving that gas is flammable?
No, not talking about gas here.

Can you show me stories or studies or statistics showing Glocks plastic frames have failed or reached the end of life?

I'm just curious here. Prove me wrong and I'll admit it.
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  #124  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
For every time you name, the military, who actually studied this for years, can show you many more where the 9mm was a better choice. Nothing is perfect and if you cherry pick, you can always find the exception, but overall, 9mm is the right choice for a general service pistol. And combat has proven that over and over.
According to your logic (more, but smaller), 22lr is the winner.
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  #125  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:34 PM
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No, not talking about gas here.

Can you show me stories or studies or statistics showing Glocks plastic frames have failed or reached the end of life?

I'm just curious here. Prove me wrong and I'll admit it.
You mean pictures with blown up Glock frames?
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  #126  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:36 PM
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According to your logic (more, but smaller), 22lr is the winner.
Not so . I qualified that with "an effective killer" which .22LR is certainly not but 9mm is. Ballistic tests put penetration and killing power of 9mm, 40, and 45 very, very close.

And, BTW, the perp in the FL incident you mentioned was using .357 magnum, not some sissy .45 ACP. So if you hold that up, I hear you really saying we need a .357 Sig pistol for the general service pistol (ballistically equivalent to a .357 magnum with 155 grain bullets).
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  #127  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:37 PM
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Aren't we $17,000,000,000,000 in debt?
NO. The actual amount is closer to $129,000,000,000,000.

Didn't you know it was possible to spend your way out of debt?




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  #128  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:38 PM
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You want to argue polymer has the same durability and tensile and compression strength on all axes as steel? Really? Gimme a hit, because whatever you are smoking is primo stuff.
You still wear steel helmet over Kevlar?

Polymer doesn't have to match steel or even aluminum exactly in every single parameter. We can design it to achieve the same lifespan.
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  #129  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:42 PM
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Do you think we should replace the standard issue M9 for our troops?
Modernized M1 carbines!



-- Michael
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  #130  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
And, BTW, the perp in the FL incident you mentioned was using .357 magnum,
FBI agents used .38 and 9mm mostly, which wasn't very effective. .45ACP ballistics looks much better.
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  #131  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:48 PM
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You still wear steel helmet over Kevlar?

Polymer doesn't have to match steel or even aluminum exactly in every single parameter. We can design it to achieve the same lifespan.
I really doubt you can design a polymer with the lifespan on aluminum for this particular purpose. You'd become the richest man in the world, if you succeeded.
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  #132  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:49 PM
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FBI agents used .38 and 9mm mostly, which wasn't very effective. .45ACP ballistics looks much better.
Only in the laboratory under controlled circumstances. If what you state was true, when the average police officer stepped down from .357 Magnum to 9mm or .40, their lethality should have dropped as well. It didn't. At all. The caliber debate 9 vs 40 vs 45 has legs but the reality is settled: for most circumstances 9mm is every bit as effective and most of it's failure are more a failure to put a round on target than the caliber. The one weakness of 9mm is it glances off car windshields and doesn't penetrate barrier as well as 40 or 45, other than that, it a very effective round 99% of the time.
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  #133  
Old 04-25-2014, 3:54 PM
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it a very effective round 99% of the time.
I would drag it down to 75%-80%
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  #134  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:02 PM
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FBI agents used .38 and 9mm mostly, which wasn't very effective. .45ACP ballistics looks much better.

9mm has killed a lot of people...globally...
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  #135  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:07 PM
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Give them something in polymer, enough making them lug around metal framed pistols already.
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  #136  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:08 PM
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I would drag it down to 75%-80%
And you'd be biased and wrong if you did that.

But some people fixate on some simple way to make a differentiation—even if it is not realistically valid because they need simplicity. Just like anti-gun people decide black rifles are scary and therefore must be banned even though all rifles kill a tiny number of people every year.

You need to try to be more rational and use measurable and objective standards to make your judgment, not what feels macho or feels better for your ego. If you did, you'd realize that 9mm in the field is every bit as effective as .45 ACP. But if carrying a bigger caliber makes you feel more of a man, knock yourself out—just realize there is no objective factual support for it over 9mm—just your ego. But it's a free country, carry what floats your boat.
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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  #137  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:14 PM
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I really doubt you can design a polymer with the lifespan on aluminum for this particular purpose. You'd become the richest man in the world, if you succeeded.
Well, at the risk of derailing this thread, let's look at what kind of stress exactly does the polymer frame have to take.

With my limited knowledge in guns, I know a Glock slide is riding on steel guides embedded into the polymer frame. The recoil spring is between a steel locking block(?) and the steel slide. The steel locking block/insert is somehow wedged against the polymer frame. That pressure can be designed to spread across a relative large area to decrease stress on the polymer frame. The polymer frame itself is relatively strong and more flexible than steel, which may be a good thing. The accuracy of a pistol is from the barrel and the slide fit. The frame can be bent and the pistol can still remain accurate.

I again ask for some numbers of Glock failures from material exhaustion. I want to know why other nations are so stupid in copying the Glock design and adopting Glocks for use in militaries and police use.

Personally, I'm not a fan of polymer guns. I have a Glock 19 but don't really enjoy it. I enjoy my P226 way more, and am much more accurate with it. I'm merely thinking in terms of a very large organizational purchase.
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  #138  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sigfan91 View Post
Well, at the risk of derailing this thread, let's look at what kind of stress exactly does the polymer frame have to take.

With my limited knowledge in guns, I know a Glock slide is riding on steel guides embedded into the polymer frame. The recoil spring is between a steel locking block(?) and the steel slide. The steel locking block/insert is somehow wedged against the polymer frame. That pressure can be designed to spread across a relative large area to decrease stress on the polymer frame. The polymer frame itself is relatively strong and more flexible than steel, which may be a good thing. The accuracy of a pistol is from the barrel and the slide fit. The frame can be bent and the pistol can still remain accurate.

I again ask for some numbers of Glock failures from material exhaustion. I want to know why other nations are so stupid in copying the Glock design and adopting Glocks for use in militaries and police use.

Personally, I'm not a fan of polymer guns. I have a Glock 19 but don't really enjoy it. I enjoy my P226 way more, and am much more accurate with it. I'm merely thinking in terms of a very large organizational purchase.
Combat weapons take a lot of external stress on their frames beyond simply firing rounds—including abrasion from running from cover to cover and crawling, hand-to-hand fighting blows from objects, bullet and ordnance hits, falls from ordnance percussion, fast rope falls, etc.. It needs to be there when I cannot use my long gun and my life will be in the balance when I grab it. I want it to work every time or at least be as reliable as possible. Plastic has no business being in the frame of a combat weapon. I'd have never carried one. Civilian CCW or police armament is a better story.
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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  #139  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
Combat weapons take a lot of external stress on their frames beyond simply firing rounds—including abrasion from running from cover to cover and crawling hand-to.hand, falls from ordnance percussion, fast rope falls, etc.. It needs to be there when I cannot use my long gun and my life will be in the balance when I grab it. I want it to work every time. Plastic has no business being in the frame of a combat weapon. I'd have never have carried one.
Yes, but in those cases, plastic might actually be beneficial. It's not as rigid. It gives.

Have you ever run into a brick wall? Not a good thing. What if you run into a wall that gives, like the boards in a hockey rink? Less damage to you. Sometimes it might be better to not have structural rigidity.

Glocks have been around for 30 years and adopted by many militaries and police agencies around the world. Steyr AUG is combat proven by the Australians. HK Mk 23 is chosen by our own Special Operations. They must know something.
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  #140  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:36 PM
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Yes, but in those cases, plastic might actually be beneficial. It's not as rigid. It gives.

Have you ever run into a brick wall? Not a good thing. What if you run into a wall that gives, like the boards in a hockey rink? Less damage to you. Sometimes it might be better to not have structural rigidity.

Glocks have been around for 30 years and adopted by many militaries and police agencies around the world. Steyr AUG is combat proven by the Australians. HK Mk 23 is chosen by our own Special Operations. They must know something.
You make a good point but without hard data, I am skeptical. And I don't assume those nations have reliability and safety as their top criteria. They don't care enough about their citizens to have bill of rights or constitution for instance.

Those nations under-fund their military and, while their people are darn good operators, I have the feeling they get inferior equipment because they are called on to do far less than ours are. I admit that is more personal point of view than objective fact, but steel is certainly more abrasion and compression resistant (as well as tension resistant) than polymer. Color me skeptical but open-minded. But where my life would be in the balance, open-minded can get you killed.
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  #141  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:45 PM
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Either stick with the M9 or go to the Sig P226
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  #142  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
You make a good point but without hard data, I am skeptical. And I don't assume those nations have reliability and safety as their top criteria. They don't care enough about their citizens to have bill of rights or constitution for instance.

Those nations under-fund their military and, while their people are darn good operators, I have the feeling they get inferior equipment because they are called on to do far less than ours are. I admit that is more personal point of view than objective fact, but steel is certainly more abrasion and compression resistant (as well as tension resistant) than polymer. Color me skeptical but open-minded. But where my life would be in the balance, open-minded can get you killed.
I don't have hard data either. That's why I am interested to find out how durable a Glock actually is. When and how does one fail, and at what part?

We know a Sig will fail at the frame rail. That's the weakest part of the entire gun. The rail will actually start to split from the frame. That's when the gun has to be retired, provided all other wearable parts are replaced at recommended intervals.

I wouldn't call Aussies underfunded or deployed less often than our guys. They are responsible for the south Pacific and participate in many combat operations around the world with UN and NATO and our guys. They might be the 2nd or 3rd most often deployed UN contingent behind the Canucks.
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  #143  
Old 04-25-2014, 4:58 PM
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Are M9s actually wearing out?
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  #144  
Old 04-25-2014, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by USM0083 View Post
P226/P228(M11)
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Originally Posted by Virus55 View Post
Glock 17 but the sig m11 would be a winner too
I think M11 would be ideal. Many military organizations already use it, and I'd take it over a M9 every day of the week.
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I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
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  #145  
Old 04-25-2014, 5:47 PM
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Are M9s actually wearing out?
This thread is.
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  #146  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:12 PM
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Giddy Up! Go West and use plastics in your pistols young man! You'll get rich and soldiers will die but what do you care? Go now!
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-- John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

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  #147  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:17 PM
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They should stick with the M9. Don't fix it if it ain't broke, especially not on my tax payer dollars!
This ^^^^ 100%!
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  #148  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:18 PM
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Either stick with the M9 or go to the Sig P226
At least both are steel. I'd rather trust my life to steel than plastic.
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  #149  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:27 PM
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I'm with those who picked the CZ P-01 (or another of the CZ-75 family).

Oooh, Maybe the Walther P99AS or PPQ. I think those would do nicely also.
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  #150  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:35 PM
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Polymer do fail. The BP dude fell off ATV and broke the handle of his P2000.

At the same time, AL bike frames do fail with fatigue cracks.

http://loadoutroom.com/3817/when-pol...fail-hk-p2000/


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  #151  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:39 PM
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The M9 is a hard pistol to beat.
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  #152  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:39 PM
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Polymer do fail. The BP dude fell off ATV and broke the handle of his P2000.

http://loadoutroom.com/3817/when-pol...fail-hk-p2000/
Wow, lucky the front of the trigger guard survived and it didn't fire, honestly. This is the only reason I'd say no to P99, etc. I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
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I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
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  #153  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:47 PM
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At least both are steel. I'd rather trust my life to steel than plastic.
M9 and P226 only have steel in their slide. Glock slides are also steel.

M9 and P226 frames are AL while Glock is polymer. More food for thought is that Glock rails are steel embedded in the polymer while the M9 and P226 rails are AL.

Note that the Walther P38/P1 has AL frame cracks from where the barrel slams against it. It was reinforced in the late production P1 and the follow-on P4 with a steel cross pin. Admittedly, this is more of an engineering boo-boo than a material problem.

So the question is, does any slamming happen to my P226 frame? I don't think so. The forces are taken by the steel piece that Sig calls the "Front Chassis", similar in idea to the steel cross pin in the P1/P4s.


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  #154  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:02 PM
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Glock slides might be steel but the other side of that load bearing contact (with equal pressure on it) is a flimsy piece of steel embedded in the polymer frame. And that is sketchy. It won't stand up to real punishment like all steel and you know it.
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  #155  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:12 PM
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Only safe guns. I hear kalifornia has a nice list of safe guns.
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  #156  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Only safe guns. I hear kalifornia has a nice list of safe guns.
Yep. All tyrants set themselves up as the authority when they start to disarm the populace "for the good of the people and the children". They know what is safe though, with proper exemptions or previously owning it, you can still have odd-Roster guns and use them legally.

The Roster is not about pistol control, it's about people control—who can buy a pistol and their plan is working the way they envisioned: the Roster is shrinking daily. And soon there will be few pistols left on it.
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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  #157  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:45 PM
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Naval special warfare has been buying HK45C's.


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Old 04-25-2014, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nitroxdiver View Post
Naval special warfare has been buying HK45C's.


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They also buy MK25s by the gross. They buy specific tools for operational needs. So what. When that tiny bit of polymer that holds the rails for the slide cracks due to the side stresses on it in combat, you'll get your 21 rounds and your mom/widow will get the brass and the flag. No thanks.
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
-- John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 04-25-2014 at 7:50 PM..
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Old 04-25-2014, 7:57 PM
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No so what, just pointing out a polymer framed pistol in use by our armed forces. Hk45ct/Mk24. Before that, the mk23. As you mentioned, they also buy metal framed mk25's and metal framed M11's, and metal framed sig 239's. The point is, both metal and polymer framed handguns are being put to the test by our best. If the were failing, they wouldn't be using them.


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Old 04-25-2014, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by nitroxdiver View Post
No so what, just pointing out a polymer framed pistol in use by our armed forces. Hk45ct/Mk24. Before that, the mk23. As you mentioned, they also buy metal framed mk25's and metal framed M11's, and metal framed sig 239's. The point is, both metal and polymer framed handguns are being put to the test by our best. If the were failing, they wouldn't be using them.
The question I have for you is where do they use the poly guns? What application? Is it overseas combat?
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I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
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