Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #281  
Old 06-19-2008, 12:43 PM
vandal vandal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 2,180
iTrader: 157 / 100%
Default

The 37 is interesting due the very light weight, lack of a disconnector and downward ejection, but the 870 has a lot more aftermarket support.

I wish I had gone with the 870.

But I am still looking forward to putting the first few rounds through the 37 this weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old 06-19-2008, 12:50 PM
vandal vandal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 2,180
iTrader: 157 / 100%
Default

Where did you find that info? I might need the source to persuade a seller that it is a C&R.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
572,000 is the cut-off for 1957 870s.
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 06-19-2008, 12:58 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is online now
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,326
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
Where did you find that info? I might need the source to persuade a seller that it is a C&R.
I called Remington and asked.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old 06-19-2008, 3:37 PM
ptoguy2002's Avatar
ptoguy2002 ptoguy2002 is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The OC.
Posts: 3,673
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

I think it needs to be a WTB ad.
No easy way to tell by searching for "remington 870" whats what without looking at each one, even then they don't tell you what the sn is.

EDIT: and if you find one, post dibs here so we all don't end up bidding against each other
__________________
WTB: HK21A1 & HK13E parts
WTB: Project & fixer upper guns: Old beaters needing some TLC, C&Rs, Mauser's, Colt's, Beretta's, & HK's
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old 06-28-2008, 10:24 AM
DrDremel DrDremel is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I have a verifiable C&R shotgun that I will sell if any of you are interested. Serial number in the 32,000 range making it a first or second year gun, 1950-51. you can e-mail me at drdremel at hotmail dot com. ( Keeps the spambots from my e-mail)
Reply With Quote
  #286  
Old 06-28-2008, 10:49 AM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is online now
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,326
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

I can give a +1 to DrDremel. Bought one from him recently, no problems at all.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old 06-28-2008, 11:42 AM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is online now
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 39,421
iTrader: 88 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I can give a +1 to DrDremel. Bought one from him recently, no problems at all.
Ought to give him an Itrader point...
Me too while we are at it.
I just left you one for the 870.
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Glock, XD and M&P pistols, Benelli and Remington shotguns: barrel, sight, trigger and receiver work.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and weekend appointments available.
Founding member of the CAPRC

Last edited by ar15barrels; 06-28-2008 at 11:45 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old 07-14-2008, 5:23 PM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Since it has been shown that "Zombies" is an acceptable reason to build up an NFA weapon on a Form 1, I think it is entirely appropriate that I resurrect this thread.

Please follow my line of reasoning, and tell me what you think:
1) Commission some manufacturer to produce a batch of limited edition commemorative off-list lowers. Perhaps they would commemorate the DC v. Heller decision, or the the California OLL craze, or some other suitable event of historical significance. Maybe they could have some feature(s), either cosmetic or functional, which make them different from typical lowers in some way other than the markings.

2) Apply to have these lowers added to the federal Curio and Relic list, on the basis of their limited production, association with a historical event, and higher value/cost than generic AR-compatible receivers.

3) If and when they are added to the list, thus gaining C&R status, their owners could form CA revokable living trusts and apply for tax stamps to make them into SBRs. All CA AW restrictions would still apply, but they could then be bullet-button A4 carbines without a few inches of extra barrel hanging off the end.
Assuming that ATF would grant the commemorative rifle model C&R status, am I missing anything here?

If my line of reasoning isn't faulty, then would the ATF ever assign C&R status to a firearm model that commemorates such a recent event, or would their response be something like "no, but feel free to apply again in 20 years"?
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Old 07-14-2008, 5:42 PM
vandal vandal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 2,180
iTrader: 157 / 100%
Default

Make it a 9/11 commemorative
Reply With Quote
  #290  
Old 07-14-2008, 6:50 PM
Ding126's Avatar
Ding126 Ding126 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Solano County / Nor Cal
Posts: 4,463
iTrader: 141 / 100%
Default

We can't even own a Colt AR15 or Hk91 in this state..let alone have to install the infamous Bullet Button on the average weapon.
I would rather be able to own a Colt AR-15 or Hk91 legally in this state without the bullet button crap. Or even be able make CA a shall issue state.

Who the heck wants some never heard of C&R for a SBR ? This state is one step away from Cap & ball guns only ( SBR that ) People are getting arrested for OLL rifles with black evil features. How do you think the SBR thing goes with the average " Joe bag of Dough nuts" How much money are you willing to spend in attorney fees to defend your C&R, SBR needs.

I wish we would all focus on getting some of the basic AWB laws overturned, allowing us to own what everyone else can in the other states.

It might be easier if you started you own motion picture company or just move to another state.

Now pass around what all of you are _______ !
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #291  
Old 07-14-2008, 8:39 PM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding126 View Post
We can't even own a Colt AR15 or Hk91 in this state.
Yet. That may change in the next few years. The opening shots have already been fired in that battle.

Quote:
let alone have to install the infamous Bullet Button on the average weapon.
It's annoying to need to install a Bullet Button or a funny grip, but these things allowed us to nearly neuter the CA assault weapon laws with respect to AR and AK series guns, pushed the CA DOJ into actually giving up some of their power (i.e., AB2728, where they gave up the ability to add weapons to "the list"), and allowed 50 to 100 thousand more AR-series weapons into California. And this was all pre-Heller!

Quote:
I would rather be able to own a Colt AR-15 or Hk91 legally in this state without the bullet button crap. Or even be able make CA a shall issue state.
I would also love either or both of those things. It seems to me like we might actually get one or both within the next few years. For the first time in my lifetime, we're on the offensive and taking new ground. And it feels good.

Quote:
Who the heck wants some never heard of C&R for a SBR?
I would like to have an SBR, in addition to my non-short EBRs. I don't care whose name is stamped on the side. Whether it says "Colt", "Stag" or "Bob's Commemorative Gun" on the side, it's still an AR, it still works the same, and it still uses all of the same interchangeable parts. It's silly that we can't buy one that says "Colt" on the side right now, but we can get the same danged thing with somebody else's name on the side. And in the cases of some restricted manufacturers who use contract manufacturers for some or all of their production, we can get the same guns, made in the same factories on the same tooling as the restricted ones, simply with somebody else's name stamped on.

Quote:
This state is one step away from Cap & ball guns only ( SBR that )
I would have agreed a few years ago, but now I see the pendulum starting to swing in the other direction.

Quote:
People are getting arrested for OLL rifles with black evil features.
Correction: A few people out of tens of thousands have been arrested for OLL rifles with black evil features, I don't think that any of them have been convicted, and the agencies who arrested them are getting bloody noses and learning to play nice.

Quote:
How do you think the SBR thing goes with the average " Joe bag of Dough nuts"
I don't see how his opinion is relevant. He might not like my OLL EBRs, or even my cap and ball guns, but that doesn't stop me from owning and enjoying them.

Quote:
How much money are you willing to spend in attorney fees to defend your C&R, SBR needs.
Any gun owner, no matter what kind(s) of guns they own, might get arrested on bogus charges in this state. We see this happen every now and then. I will not let this deter me from exercising my right to keep and bear arms. Other people on this board, with far smaller financial resources than I could bring to bear, have gotten wrongly accused and then came out on top. I do not fear oppression from the CA government when I exercise my legal rights, because I have seen that there are a lot of people here on this board who will stand behind me if I get in trouble, just as I have helped stand behind others. We are in a fight to get back our trampled rights, and I will risk some money to do so.

Quote:
I wish we would all focus on getting some of the basic AWB laws overturned, allowing us to own what everyone else can in the other states.
I think that the time for that will be in a year or three, after we get the Second Amendment incorporated under the Fourteenth. I think we'll be able to play with the same toys as the folks in the other states before too long if we stay on the course that we are already on. It's not easy to be patient about this, but a little bit of patience will pay off. Having a ruling that the Second Amendment is binding upon state laws will give us a really big hammer with which to start pounding on AWB laws.

Quote:
It might be easier if you started you own motion picture company or just move to another state.
Well, those would appear to be my only options if I wanted to legally have a suppressor and/or an MG, right now. I don't feel like moving to another state or hanging out with film people right now, though, so I'll stay here on the Second Amendment front lines, do what I can, and consider playing with some lesser SBRs and SBSs in the mean time until we're ready to start going after some or all of the NFA. Which might not be too far in the future!

Quote:
Now pass around what all of you are _______ !
I don't think we're _______ anything here at the moment. If you read the thread carefully, folks are actually buying and/or building a restricted set of AOW, SBR and SBS guns here in California, right now, perfectly legally. Others here, like me, are considering doing the same, or are at least interested in discussing the sordid details of the legal minefield we presently live in. It may be somewhat dangerous to play in that minefield, but it's also dangerous to do anything related to firearms right now. And some of the folks discussing this SBR/SBS/AOW stuff here are the same ones who backed the CA DOJ into a corner and got them to say "uncle".
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #292  
Old 07-14-2008, 8:51 PM
RANGER295's Avatar
RANGER295 RANGER295 is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Rural California
Posts: 2,943
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 383green View Post
Since it has been shown that "Zombies" is an acceptable reason to build up an NFA weapon on a Form 1, I think it is entirely appropriate that I resurrect this thread.

Please follow my line of reasoning, and tell me what you think:
1) Commission some manufacturer to produce a batch of limited edition commemorative off-list lowers. Perhaps they would commemorate the DC v. Heller decision, or the the California OLL craze, or some other suitable event of historical significance. Maybe they could have some feature(s), either cosmetic or functional, which make them different from typical lowers in some way other than the markings.

2) Apply to have these lowers added to the federal Curio and Relic list, on the basis of their limited production, association with a historical event, and higher value/cost than generic AR-compatible receivers.

3) If and when they are added to the list, thus gaining C&R status, their owners could form CA revokable living trusts and apply for tax stamps to make them into SBRs. All CA AW restrictions would still apply, but they could then be bullet-button A4 carbines without a few inches of extra barrel hanging off the end.
Assuming that ATF would grant the commemorative rifle model C&R status, am I missing anything here?

If my line of reasoning isn't faulty, then would the ATF ever assign C&R status to a firearm model that commemorates such a recent event, or would their response be something like "no, but feel free to apply again in 20 years"?
I like your thought process. I see only one problem with it however. I do not have an M-4 configured AR so I am not sure of the exact dimensions, but keep in mind that the OAL must be at least 30 otherwise it is an AW. I could be wrong, but I think that depending on how short you made the barrel, it would be under 30 which is a no no even with a fixed mag. Just a thought.
__________________
Honor is a way of life, live it with pride

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."

- Mark Twain

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Reply With Quote
  #293  
Old 07-14-2008, 9:06 PM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
I like your thought process. I see only one problem with it however. I do not have an M-4 configured AR so I am not sure of the exact dimensions, but keep in mind that the OAL must be at least 30 otherwise it is an AW. I could be wrong, but I think that depending on how short you made the barrel, it would be under 30 which is a no no even with a fixed mag. Just a thought.

Aw, I knew there had to be a fly in the ointment. Or maybe even a cat poop.

Let's see, I just grabbed a ruler and my CA-legal M4gery, and it appears that it couldn't afford to lose any barrel length with the stock retracted. Now, it might be possible to install the shorter M4 barrel (I don't recall the exact length) if the telestock was permanently locked at maximum length, but that would just be silly. For any given overall length, might as well maximize the barrel length within the constraint of having a comfortable pull length.

Ok, your homework assignment is to take my basic idea and them come up with other interesting and legal applications!
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #294  
Old 07-14-2008, 9:31 PM
csmintel csmintel is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 877
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whomper View Post
Alot of folks, in other states, are setting up trusts and placing NFA items under them. I do not know what it takes to set up a trust, but it might be easier than a coprporation or LLC.

ETA:
ke6guj beat me to it.
to set up a "true" trust in much more expensive than to set up an LLC or CORP.
Reply With Quote
  #295  
Old 07-15-2008, 8:30 AM
Roccobro Roccobro is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: By Cal State San Bernardino
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by csmintel View Post
to set up a "true" trust in much more expensive than to set up an LLC or CORP.
Please elaborate. I'd sure hate the BATFolk to come beating down my door because my Trust isn't a "true" trust.

But then again, I think you might be ignorant of the fees involve with each of the other options. (and maybe even the hassle of filing taxes quarterly!)

Justin
__________________
[SIZE="4]For any questions contact me by email.
Thanks,
Justin[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Sometimes, arguing just for the sake of arguing, can be fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyZRC View Post
no it can't!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
YES IT CAN!
"Pink rifle disease... SPREAD IT!"
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Old 07-15-2008, 9:09 AM
Ding126's Avatar
Ding126 Ding126 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Solano County / Nor Cal
Posts: 4,463
iTrader: 141 / 100%
Default

383green

Thank you for your logical and optimistic replies. I hope things change for the better in CA. This is a great state, they just need to make laws that are logical rather than emotional.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #297  
Old 07-15-2008, 9:23 AM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding126 View Post
Thank you for your logical and optimistic replies. I hope things change for the better in CA. This is a great state, they just need to make laws that are logical rather than emotional.
No problem! Being optimistic about gun laws in California is very new to me, too. Things really have started to change over the last couple of years, and the rate of change seems to be increasing.
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Old 07-15-2008, 12:12 PM
GuyW GuyW is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,303
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 383green View Post

...I don't care whose name is stamped on the side. Whether it says "Colt", "Stag" or "Bob's Commemorative Gun" on the side...

It's silly that we can't buy one that says "Colt" on the side right now, but we can get the same danged thing with somebody else's name on the side.
Which begs the qustion: when are one of the named corporations going to sue CA for illegal restriction of (lawful) trade??
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Old 07-15-2008, 12:32 PM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
Which begs the qustion: when are one of the named corporations going to sue CA for illegal restriction of (lawful) trade??
I wonder what the Right People think about whether they should sue now, or wait until 14th incorporation of the 2nd? If now is a good time for one of them to file a suit, I wonder if there's anything that us consumers can do to help them along?
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #300  
Old 07-15-2008, 10:19 PM
adamsreeftank's Avatar
adamsreeftank adamsreeftank is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,265
iTrader: 28 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding126 View Post
We can't even own a Colt AR15 or Hk91 in this state..let alone have to install the infamous Bullet Button on the average weapon.
I would rather be able to own a Colt AR-15 or Hk91 legally in this state without the bullet button crap. Or even be able make CA a shall issue state.

Who the heck wants some never heard of C&R for a SBR ? This state is one step away from Cap & ball guns only ( SBR that ) People are getting arrested for OLL rifles with black evil features. How do you think the SBR thing goes with the average " Joe bag of Dough nuts" How much money are you willing to spend in attorney fees to defend your C&R, SBR needs.
..!
As a quick response:

You CAN own a Colt AR15. There are at least one or two models that are off list. I think the Match Target HBar is one.

You CAN own an HK 91, sort of. HK re-stamped some 91s to 911 and these are off list. In fact, one has been in the for-sale forum for the past month.

I don't know about never heard of C&Rs, but my Remington 870 and 11 are both C&Rs.

As to spending money on attorneys fees, I agree that sucks. I can't really argue with that.
Reply With Quote
  #301  
Old 07-15-2008, 10:37 PM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding126
We can't even own a Colt AR15 or Hk91 in this state..let alone have to install the infamous Bullet Button on the average weapon.
I would rather be able to own a Colt AR-15 or Hk91 legally in this state without the bullet button crap. Or even be able make CA a shall issue state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamsreeftank View Post
You CAN own an HK 91, sort of. HK re-stamped some 91s to 911 and these are off list. In fact, one has been in the for-sale forum for the past month.
Can't own one? Looks like you already have one!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=105358



Anyway, it looks like a beautiful rifle, but it's out of my price range right now. I've been hemorrhaging money on my home construction.
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #302  
Old 07-27-2008, 8:14 AM
Cali-V's Avatar
Cali-V Cali-V is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SF Bay Area - Berzerkeley
Posts: 1,932
iTrader: 117 / 100%
Default

Just thinking... given 12020b7...
A Mech-Tech CCU 1911 Carbine Conversion Upper, on top of a C&R 1911 could be registered as SBR...


__________________
oh this...
It's a Single Cylinder - Single Stroke,
Internal Combustion Engine,
with a Free Floating Piston...
Reply With Quote
  #303  
Old 07-27-2008, 8:27 AM
vandal vandal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 2,180
iTrader: 157 / 100%
Default

Getting close, but...

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. The SBR barrel wouldn't have this so OK
(B) A second handgrip. I think this means "vertical" grip so OK
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel. This looks like a problem

ETA: Missed the obvious problem -- it has a pistol grip and is a rifle! Funny thing about the CA law is that anything with <16" barrel is considered a pistol, so you can have a weapon that is both a pistol and a SBR at the same time. That makes no sense to me. It pretty much makes it impossible to have a SBR that does not violate SB23, since you have to comply with both the rifle and pistol sections of SB23.

Does anyone have a reference for where CA specifically defines what a rifle is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-V View Post
Just thinking... given 12020b7...
A Mech-Tech CCU 1911 Carbine Conversion Upper, on top of a C&R 1911 could be registered as SBR...



Last edited by vandal; 07-27-2008 at 8:36 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #304  
Old 07-27-2008, 8:29 AM
RANGER295's Avatar
RANGER295 RANGER295 is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Rural California
Posts: 2,943
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-V View Post
Just thinking... given 12020b7...
A Mech-Tech CCU 1911 Carbine Conversion Upper, on top of a C&R 1911 could be registered as SBR...


The only problem is, that would need a fixed mag or it would be an AW in CA. I also do not know what the legalities are for registering a pistol as a SBR as far as the feds are concerned. Can you even do that?
__________________
Honor is a way of life, live it with pride

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."

- Mark Twain

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Reply With Quote
  #305  
Old 07-27-2008, 12:20 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is online now
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,326
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
Getting close, but...
ETA: Missed the obvious problem -- it has a pistol grip and is a rifle! Funny thing about the CA law is that anything with <16" barrel is considered a pistol, so you can have a weapon that is both a pistol and a SBR at the same time. That makes no sense to me. It pretty much makes it impossible to have a SBR that does not violate SB23, since you have to comply with both the rifle and pistol sections of SB23.
yup, semi-auto SBR's are almost impossible witout violationg SB23. Even if you go featureless or fixed-mag, you have the <30" rule that basically makes getting a tax stamp useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal
Does anyone have a reference for where CA specifically defines what a rifle is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA PC
12020(c)(20) As used in this section, a "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
Even though it is in 12020, and refers to "as used in the this section (12020), since it is defined in no other section of the code, 12020(c)(20) applies code wide.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
I also do not know what the legalities are for registering a pistol as a SBR as far as the feds are concerned. Can you even do that?
Sure can. People have registered 1911s and glocks as SBRs so that they can put detachable shoulder stocks on them.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #306  
Old 07-27-2008, 12:37 PM
vandal vandal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 2,180
iTrader: 157 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Sure can. People have registered 1911s and glocks as SBRs so that they can put detachable shoulder stocks on them.
So building on the idea of the C&R 1911...

Seems like you could get one of the C&R high powers with the holster/shoulder stock and have a replacement stock made for it that prevented a "pistol-style" grasp.

Reply With Quote
  #307  
Old 07-27-2008, 12:54 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is online now
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,326
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

whats funny is that there are actually 1911/hi-power/lugers/broomhandle mausers that are exempt from the NFA with "original" shoulder stocks. No tax stamp needed. They would be 12020 legal, but would probably violate 12276.

I know that DrDremel SBR Form 1'ed a C&R Sistema 1911 in MI. And making a shoulder stock that wasn't skinny where it attached, but was tall enough to cover the entire back of the grip would eliminate the "pistol-grip" grasp. Wouldn't work good for a 1911 with the grip safety, but on a hi-power, why not? How much do C&R Hi-powers go for?
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #308  
Old 08-16-2008, 6:59 PM
Cesardajr Cesardajr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 281
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Question

Wow i just read all these pages.
so has anyone with a hk sp89 reg. a/w done the paper work and got approved to make this weapon a aow to add the front pistol grip?

i sent a informal email to the ca doj in oct of 07 asking if i could reg my sp89 as a aow and the said no way.

now i see that you can, but has anyone already done this and been approved?

i live in chula vista ca county of san diego, since the city of chula vista has it's own police department can i ask the local police chief for a signature and if he turns me down then ask the county sheriff to see if he will sign?

i will start getting my paperwork together to submit to the atf.
Reply With Quote
  #309  
Old 08-16-2008, 10:33 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is online now
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,326
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

I don't have any registered AW pistols, so that option is not available to me.

What reason did the DOJ say that would prevent you from doing an AOW? I'm not aware of any CA code sections other than 12276.1 that prohibit an VFG on a handgun. And since the SP89 is already a registered AW, adding a VFG shouldn't be manufacturing a new AW, its already one.

OH, just thought of something, of course you couldn't register it as an AOW with CADOJ, since CADOJ does not have a definition for AOW or registration process for AOWs. AOW is a federal definition that you have to comply with. CA merely has an AOW exemption for 12020 prohibitions if you have a federally registered AOW.


I think there are one or two guys that may be working on AOW'ing some fixed-mag AR/AK pistols with VFGs since that would not violate 12276.1.


Yes, you would need to get a signature from someone, police chief or sherriff are the most common ones, but there are other acceptable signatories. DAs and Judges are other possibilites, and there may be others as well.

Unfortunately, the trust option does not look to be an option, since you'd have to transfer the registered AW into the trust and the trust would have to file the Form 1. But, the SP89 is already registered in your name, transfering it to the trust may not be possible as the AW registration may "break".
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

Last edited by ke6guj; 08-16-2008 at 10:39 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #310  
Old 08-17-2008, 12:15 PM
Cesardajr Cesardajr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 281
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Unhappy

the email from the state just said aow's were not allowed in the state, it was a informal email request and response.

so it does not seem that i could make my sp89 a aow and add the front grip?

if i received a approved aow tax stamp from the feds, does the sp89 aow become eligilble to have in cali since
"CA merely has an AOW exemption for 12020 prohibitions if you have a federally registered AOW."

i was not going to go the trust route.

that bites...

Last edited by Cesardajr; 08-17-2008 at 12:18 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #311  
Old 08-17-2008, 1:21 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is online now
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,326
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

The term "any other weapon" appears just once in the entire firearms section of the code, as a valid exemption to 12020 prohibitions. And AOW does not appear at all. No place do I see anything that CA specifically states that a federally registered AOW is illegal in CA. So, you would need to look at what features of an AOW that would be banned by CA. Stuff like smooth-bore pistols, unconventional firearms, and other stuff.

So, the feature you are talking about adding a VFG to to semi-auto detachable mag pistol. Doing that would normally be creating an AW, which would be illegal unless registered. But your SP89 is already a reg'ed AW, so what CA law did you violate by placing an VFG on it?


I think if you could get a CLEO sign-off on your Form 1, you should be golden. Send it to the BATFE and it should come back approved in a couple months. After you get the AOW approval from the feds and install the VFG, what crime would you have committed in CA. You didn't make an unregistered AW, it already was registered. Oh, and ATF will not approve any app that violates state law.


Remember that CADOJ does spread FUD if they don't like what we are doing. So, their opinion may not follow the letter of the law. Just look at the entire OLL deal.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #312  
Old 08-21-2008, 7:34 AM
AYEAREFIFTEEN's Avatar
AYEAREFIFTEEN AYEAREFIFTEEN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 1,122
iTrader: 33 / 100%
Default

I am just curious about a particular senario. Say someone were to buy a brand new shotgun originally equiped with a pistol grip and then registered it as an AOW. Then they proceed to register as a short barrel shotgun. Would the AOW status remain if a stock were to be put back on the shotgun? Once a registered AOW always a registered AOW, or does the stock negate its "AOWness" so to speak?
Reply With Quote
  #313  
Old 08-21-2008, 7:59 AM
vandal vandal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 2,180
iTrader: 157 / 100%
Default

Similar question -- does a shotgun registered as a SBS have to keep a shoulder stock attached?
Reply With Quote
  #314  
Old 08-21-2008, 9:49 AM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is online now
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,326
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN View Post
I am just curious about a particular senario. Say someone were to buy a brand new shotgun originally equiped with a pistol grip and then registered it as an AOW. Then they proceed to register as a short barrel shotgun. Would the AOW status remain if a stock were to be put back on the shotgun? Once a registered AOW always a registered AOW, or does the stock negate its "AOWness" so to speak?
That is an interesting question. I think I see where you are attempting to go with it. If you have a registered AOW and then register it as an SBS, does the AOW registration go bye-bye. Because, if its still a registered AOW, then it is exempt from 12020, even if the configuration changed. Let me do a litte checking on that and see if I can find out anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
Similar question -- does a shotgun registered as a SBS have to keep a shoulder stock attached?
No, an SBS does not needto keep a shoulder stock attached, because a federally defined SBS is a short barrel firearm made from a shotgun (a shoulder fired shotshell firearm). Even though you later take off the stock, it was made from a shotgun, so federally it is still a shotgun and an SBS.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #315  
Old 08-21-2008, 9:56 AM
GuyW GuyW is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,303
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN View Post
...a brand new shotgun originally equiped with a pistol grip and then registered it as an AOW.... Would the AOW status remain if a stock were to be put back on the shotgun?
Bzzt....It's impossible to "put a stock back on" an AOW "shotgun", because an AOW "shotgun" by definition never had a stock on it.
Reply With Quote
  #316  
Old 08-21-2008, 3:27 PM
AYEAREFIFTEEN's Avatar
AYEAREFIFTEEN AYEAREFIFTEEN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 1,122
iTrader: 33 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
That is an interesting question. I think I see where you are attempting to go with it. If you have a registered AOW and then register it as an SBS, does the AOW registration go bye-bye. Because, if its still a registered AOW, then it is exempt from 12020, even if the configuration changed. Let me do a litte checking on that and see if I can find out anything.
I read through the PC a little and could not find anything. Here is what I would like to do.

Buy a Remington 870 originally pistol gripped only from the factor.

Register the 870 as an AOW

Register the 870 as a SBS

Mount it below my 20" Colt Government Upper and saw off enough of the barrel so it is flush with the flash suppressor. (The 18" barrel doesn't look very nice sticking out another 4" from the Colt Barrel.)

The only issue is if the stock from the rifle negate the AOW status. If it negates the AOW status then the SBS status is no longer legal in California.

I don't believe the C&R 870's (if I could find one) have the means to mount to the Master Key.
Reply With Quote
  #317  
Old 08-21-2008, 3:53 PM
GuyW GuyW is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,303
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

[EDITED TO BE AS ACCURATE AS I CAN STATE MY UNDERSTANDINGS]

Generally, CA discussions should not mix up "short-barreled shotguns" ("SBS") and AOWs....

A NEW SBS is specifically not legal in CA for average citizens under CA law, even if it has a federal SBS tax stamp (ie, "paper").

A C&R shoulder-fired shotgun can apparently have the barrel shortened (and/or the entire gun shortened) to otherwise-illegal length(s) under CA law because its C&R and has a blanket exemption. I believe it still needs federal paper as a SBS.

A federally-papered AOW "shotgun" of any age is OK in CA as its exempted.

Last edited by GuyW; 08-22-2008 at 11:35 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #318  
Old 08-22-2008, 7:03 AM
AYEAREFIFTEEN's Avatar
AYEAREFIFTEEN AYEAREFIFTEEN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 1,122
iTrader: 33 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
SBS is specifically not legal in CA without a special permit. This is a different situation than AOW.
Reply With Quote
  #319  
Old 08-22-2008, 7:19 AM
Roccobro Roccobro is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: By Cal State San Bernardino
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Quote:
SBS is specifically not legal in CA without a special permit. This is a different situation than AOW.
Uh, I now have a SBS 870. NOTHING from CA has any bearing on it. Maybe you just got the two terms swapped?

Ayearefifteen- The only issue with what you propose is that the shotgun mounted to the AR makes the AR an AW. If the AR is already reg'ed as an AW then your G2G.

Justin
__________________
[SIZE="4]For any questions contact me by email.
Thanks,
Justin[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Sometimes, arguing just for the sake of arguing, can be fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyZRC View Post
no it can't!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
YES IT CAN!
"Pink rifle disease... SPREAD IT!"
Reply With Quote
  #320  
Old 08-22-2008, 10:18 AM
CHS's Avatar
CHS CHS is offline
Moderator Emeritus
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Santa Ana, CA
Posts: 11,329
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roccobro View Post
Ayearefifteen- The only issue with what you propose is that the shotgun mounted to the AR makes the AR an AW. If the AR is already reg'ed as an AW then your G2G.

Justin
How does the shotgun mounted make it an AW?

The law says no grenade or flare launchers. A regular 12ga shotgun is neither.
__________________
Please read the Calguns Wiki
Quote:
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 2:13 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.