Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-26-2014, 2:12 AM
boyzuker boyzuker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Folsom
Posts: 353
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default Equipment advice on loading for accuracy.

I've been reloading on my Dillion XL650 for nearly a decade cranking out .223 and pistol ammo but now I want to load for accuracy instead of bulk. I'm looking for some advice on equipment.

To start I'll only be loading .308 for both a bolt gun and a 308 AR. I'd prefer to go with RCBS as much as possible.

I have a lot of experience reloading but when it comes to hand loading I'm a total dullard.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-26-2014, 3:10 AM
AlliedArmory's Avatar
AlliedArmory AlliedArmory is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SGV, CA
Posts: 10,006
iTrader: 308 / 100%
Default

Since you asked about equipment, this is what I suggest.

RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press
RCBS Universal hand priming tool
RCBS Precision mic
Redding Type-S FL Bushing die set
Redding Neck bushings (dependant on brass)
Hornady Comparator set

If you need a scale/dispenser I highly recommend the RCBS Chargemaster Combo
__________________
http://www.alliedarmory.com/
California Business - No Credit Card Fees - $5.95 Flat Rate Shipping on Any Order

Deal of the Week - Updated Every Monday


http://www.alliedbrassprocessing.com/
Professional Brass Processing Service of your 223/5.56, 300 AAC Blackout and 9MM brass at an affordable price
PM me about local dropoff and pickups
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-26-2014, 3:22 AM
the86d's Avatar
the86d the86d is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Pinko-occupied ObamaDerkaderkastan
Posts: 5,598
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlliedArmory View Post
Since you asked about equipment, this is what I suggest.

RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press
RCBS Universal hand priming tool
RCBS Precision mic
Redding Type-S FL Bushing die set
Redding Neck bushings (dependant on brass)
Hornady Comparator set

If you need a scale/dispenser I highly recommend the RCBS Chargemaster Combo
Can't you prime (for accuracy) on the RockChucker?
__________________
"That's what governments are for - get in a man's way." - Captain Malcolm 'Mal' Reynolds
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-26-2014, 3:44 AM
BSlacker BSlacker is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 923
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Look over on the RCBS website they have a new press that is more for your desires, low volume and accurate. I have a RCBS Supreme and a Forester. Get the Forester for low volume accurate ammo. Use RCBS dies if you want. Unless you like primers all over the floor. For your low volume needs prime off the press.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-26-2014, 6:09 AM
gemoose23's Avatar
gemoose23 gemoose23 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Escaped CA to Iowa
Posts: 1,081
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

Keep using your dillon650xl, as a starting long range shooter, buying new presses isn't needed..

Do the following things:
  • Pay more attention to die setup pertaining ammo fitment to your guns.
  • Use good components, those bulk bullets won't get to where you want to go.
  • Consider your powder choice to ensure it is very consistent with the Dillon Powder dropper or consider purchasing a uniflow and die adapter.
  • Brass prep is king...

Some reading at the bottom of the article... http://www.jarheadtop.com/articles_ReloadQuant.htm
__________________
Hornady LnL, Dillon Precision, RCBS, Lee Precision and Lyman User
If You want Match or Leadless hunting Ammo check out Monolithic Munitions Yes I am a shill, friends with the owners.

Last edited by gemoose23; 02-26-2014 at 6:17 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-26-2014, 8:26 AM
krwada's Avatar
krwada krwada is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,453
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I would not worry about getting a new press. What gemoose23 said is pretty much what you need to pay attention to. The best tools you can get are the ones that measure:
1. Headspace
2. Concentricity
3. Neck wall thickness and uniformity

Make sure you get good components
Brass prep is very important ... other than component selection, this is one of the few places where you can make a difference
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-26-2014, 12:49 PM
AlliedArmory's Avatar
AlliedArmory AlliedArmory is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SGV, CA
Posts: 10,006
iTrader: 308 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the86d View Post
Can't you prime (for accuracy) on the RockChucker?

Yes you can prime on a RC. Some people like to prime on the press, some don't. I honestly have not seen any difference.
__________________
http://www.alliedarmory.com/
California Business - No Credit Card Fees - $5.95 Flat Rate Shipping on Any Order

Deal of the Week - Updated Every Monday


http://www.alliedbrassprocessing.com/
Professional Brass Processing Service of your 223/5.56, 300 AAC Blackout and 9MM brass at an affordable price
PM me about local dropoff and pickups
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-26-2014, 1:12 PM
CK_32's Avatar
CK_32 CK_32 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,277
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlliedArmory View Post
Since you asked about equipment, this is what I suggest.

RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press
RCBS Universal hand priming tool
RCBS Precision mic
Redding Type-S FL Bushing die set
Redding Neck bushings (dependant on brass)
Hornady Comparator set

If you need a scale/dispenser I highly recommend the RCBS Chargemaster Combo
This is a pretty solid list right here. Only thing I could add is a ogive gauge.
__________________
For Sale: 40 S&W Bullet Case Valve Stem Caps

What's Your Caliber??


My Youtube channel
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-26-2014, 1:14 PM
CK_32's Avatar
CK_32 CK_32 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,277
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the86d View Post
Can't you prime (for accuracy) on the RockChucker?
You can but it's a pain in the a**. Ask me how I know


I also like the hand priming tool because you can feel the seating tension once seated. Not so much wih the press primer. The hand primer is better all around IMO.
__________________
For Sale: 40 S&W Bullet Case Valve Stem Caps

What's Your Caliber??


My Youtube channel
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-26-2014, 1:17 PM
HighLander51 HighLander51 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,144
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

You can load plenty accurate in .223Rem on a Dillon 650. Most 3 gun shooters run 650's. What distance are you going to shoot at?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-26-2014, 1:25 PM
ExtremeX's Avatar
ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,278
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

+1 on what Allied Armory said.

+1 on the hand priming tool...

For my rifle loads, I love my competition seating dies with a micrometer top and bullet guide.
__________________
ExtremeX
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-26-2014, 10:32 PM
boyzuker boyzuker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Folsom
Posts: 353
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemoose23 View Post
Keep using your dillon650xl, as a starting long range shooter, buying new presses isn't needed..

Do the following things:
  • Pay more attention to die setup pertaining ammo fitment to your guns.
  • Use good components, those bulk bullets won't get to where you want to go.
  • Consider your powder choice to ensure it is very consistent with the Dillon Powder dropper or consider purchasing a uniflow and die adapter.
  • Brass prep is king...

Some reading at the bottom of the article... http://www.jarheadtop.com/articles_ReloadQuant.htm
What king of consistency is the dillon powder measure capable of? That is the reason I was thinking an additional loading setup was going to be required.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
You can load plenty accurate in .223Rem on a Dillon 650. Most 3 gun shooters run 650's. What distance are you going to shoot at?
Starting at 300yds and moving out as my skills increase.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-26-2014, 11:28 PM
AlliedArmory's Avatar
AlliedArmory AlliedArmory is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SGV, CA
Posts: 10,006
iTrader: 308 / 100%
Default

What type of powder are you planning on using? If it's something like Varget or R15 you will get charges ranging from 1gr apart. If you use something like 2000-MR you can get pretty consistent charges which would most likely spread a +/- .2gr range.

The key to accuracy is consistency. That's why precision shooters mainly load on single stage presses and weigh each charge.

More or less any decent 308 bolt gun with glass will be plenty accurate out to 6-900 yrds even with factory bulk ammo. But it comes down to if you want to hit the steel pig or hit the same steel pig's eye.
__________________
http://www.alliedarmory.com/
California Business - No Credit Card Fees - $5.95 Flat Rate Shipping on Any Order

Deal of the Week - Updated Every Monday


http://www.alliedbrassprocessing.com/
Professional Brass Processing Service of your 223/5.56, 300 AAC Blackout and 9MM brass at an affordable price
PM me about local dropoff and pickups
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-27-2014, 4:04 AM
rsrocket1 rsrocket1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,727
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyzuker View Post
What king kind of consistency is the dillon powder measure capable of? That is the reason I was thinking an additional loading setup was going to be required.

Starting at 300yds and moving out as my skills increase.
That doesn't really matter. Start out by hand weighing loads. I hope you have a scale. Use the Dillon PM to throw a charge into the scale, trickle up and dump it into the case. As the others said, component selection and consistency is the key. Only if you start measuring inconsistencies in what the 650 delivers (if any), should you buy something else.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-27-2014, 9:54 AM
xray30 xray30 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 25
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I pretty much agree with what most people are saying here. Consistency is key in precision. What kind of budget are you working with? What type of accuracy are you looking for?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-27-2014, 2:02 PM
boyzuker boyzuker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Folsom
Posts: 353
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I'd like to be shooting sub .5moa.

My budget isn't set in stone, I'd LIKE to spend as little as possible but you get what you pay for. If I were to set up the Dillon to load .308 it would be a few hundred bucks for everything. If later down the road I'm going single stage I'd rather put my money in that direction now.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-27-2014, 4:15 PM
bigedp51 bigedp51 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 263
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

More "inaccurate" ammunition is reloaded than any other cause because the decapping rod expander button is locked down off center "increasing" neck runout.

You will get more consistent accuracy when full length resizing and thus eliminating the body of the case contacting the chamber.

The late Jim Hull of Sierra Bullets said the following: (with humor)
"I get my best accuracy when the cartridge fits the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case".

The Rifleman's Journal
Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by Germán A. Salazar

"In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling."



You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear, meaning you can't make bad brass shoot better if the case has unequal case wall thicknesses.



A simple runout gauge and neck thickness gauge will help sort out the bad brass.

SINCLAIR CONCENTRICITY GAUGE
http://http://www.sinclairintl.com/r...prod37479.aspx

Redding Case Neck Gage w/ Indicator
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadin...prod39927.aspx

Both these type gauges will help you sort through your brass and eliminate any bad brass, and check your resized cases for alignment errors.

So the first thing you need is good quality brass and gauges to check its accuracy and consistency and then your work.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-27-2014, 4:38 PM
RandyD's Avatar
RandyD RandyD is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: La Jolla, California
Posts: 4,638
iTrader: 39 / 100%
Default

David Tubb who has held many national rifle shooting records and has won numerous rifle competitions (http://www.davidtubb.com/store/About-David-Tubb) uses a Dillon 550 and 650 to reload his match rounds. To verify just google his name. The US Palma team also uses a Dillon 650 to reload their match rounds.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-27-2014, 7:11 PM
milotrain's Avatar
milotrain milotrain is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,430
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyzuker View Post
I'd like to be shooting sub .5moa.

My budget isn't set in stone, I'd LIKE to spend as little as possible but you get what you pay for. If I were to set up the Dillon to load .308 it would be a few hundred bucks for everything. If later down the road I'm going single stage I'd rather put my money in that direction now.
I'm getting nearly .5moa (maybe more like .75) with military brass and thrown charges in a .223 case on a Dillon 550. If you weigh the charges accuracy should go up, if you neckturn or use lapua brass and a full length sizer with a neck bushing to set neck tension then that's the majority of the accuracy you will find.

Take the time (and spend the money) to either match the chambers of your AR and your bolt gun so your neck turned brass is ubiquitous and your full length sizer works for both chambers and you are golden.
__________________
weg: That device is obsolete now. They replaced it with wizards.
frank: Wait a minute. There are more than one wizard? Is [are?] the wizard calibrated?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-28-2014, 9:10 PM
huckberry668 huckberry668 is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,412
iTrader: 81 / 100%
Default

Provided a known accurate load is developed. Progressive or single stage, the press matters in the ability to keep the loaded ammo's round to round variations low. Beside other obvious weighing, sizing, length, seating considerations, cartridge run-out should be attended to too.

My old Rock Chucker 2 press gave up to .008"s run-out. My 550B with floating die mod and Forster CoAx give less than .003" run-out. I now load my match loads that are .5MOA capable on progressive.

In order to load accurate ammo, loading equipment needs to:

1. size the sorted, prep'ed brass straight (low run-out),
2. size the brass to the same or close head-space tolerance,
3. seat primer firmly and consistently,
4. throw powder charge weight consistently and low/no variation,
5. seat bullets consistently to the same or very close ogive to head measurements.
6. seat bullets straight with low to no run-out.

1. and 6. are hard to accomplish with traditional lock-down press/die setup. 4. consistent powder charge can be done with ball powder or charging on a separate step.

I believe David Tubbs, John Whidden and the U.S. Palma team load their ammo on progressive presses with floating die setup to keep run-out low.
__________________
GCC
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-28-2014, 10:10 PM
gemoose23's Avatar
gemoose23 gemoose23 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Escaped CA to Iowa
Posts: 1,081
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyzuker View Post
What king of consistency is the dillon powder measure capable of? That is the reason I was thinking an additional loading setup was going to be required.
I haven't dropped rifle powders out of my Dillon measures yet. You'll have to test out the powder you are wanting to use and see if the Dillon measure will drop as consistent to your personal quality levels.

As an alternative to using an auto dropper is to trickle and scale your powder and drop it manually.

Dillon makes such an powder die to enable on press filling if you are measuring and tricking on your bench. http://www.dillonprecision.com/conte...500_Powder_Die

You could also go the low tech route and just place a funnel to drop your powder every time. (This is what I did last year on my Hornady)
__________________
Hornady LnL, Dillon Precision, RCBS, Lee Precision and Lyman User
If You want Match or Leadless hunting Ammo check out Monolithic Munitions Yes I am a shill, friends with the owners.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-01-2014, 1:33 PM
3RDGEARGRNDRR's Avatar
3RDGEARGRNDRR 3RDGEARGRNDRR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 894
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Very good info here.
To summarize depending on your wallet and how much OCD you have about minimizing all variables then changing one variable at a time you can have some very accurate ammo. Handloading for accuracy takes a lot of prep, research, and consistency throughout all the aspects of the loading practice.
If you arent willing to drop good coin for high end components, measure and remeasure, weigh and reweigh and suborganize your components, Then youre still leaving accuracy on the table. I didnt even get into presses and setup yet.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-01-2014, 2:10 PM
milotrain's Avatar
milotrain milotrain is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,430
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

All of which is academic if you can't hold sub MOA, which is the case for most people.
__________________
weg: That device is obsolete now. They replaced it with wizards.
frank: Wait a minute. There are more than one wizard? Is [are?] the wizard calibrated?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-01-2014, 2:32 PM
3RDGEARGRNDRR's Avatar
3RDGEARGRNDRR 3RDGEARGRNDRR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 894
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by milotrain View Post
All of which is academic if you can't hold sub MOA, which is the case for most people.
Damn wind ruined the day
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-01-2014, 3:26 PM
milotrain's Avatar
milotrain milotrain is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,430
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

I was out with some old guys on the line. .223 and .22-250 Rem 700s with 24" barrels. Shooting at 100 yards. Kept complaining about the wind pushing their shots.
__________________
weg: That device is obsolete now. They replaced it with wizards.
frank: Wait a minute. There are more than one wizard? Is [are?] the wizard calibrated?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-02-2014, 9:11 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,437
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyzuker View Post
I've been reloading on my Dillion XL650 for nearly a decade cranking out .223 and pistol ammo but now I want to load for accuracy instead of bulk. I'm looking for some advice on equipment.

To start I'll only be loading .308 for both a bolt gun and a 308 AR. I'd prefer to go with RCBS as much as possible.

I have a lot of experience reloading but when it comes to hand loading I'm a total dullard.
Use good quality brass(Lapua)
Weigh each charge with as little variation as you can.
Uniform primer pockets.
Seat bullets using a comparator or forget about accuracy.
Fire your brass one time size the brass then trim all of your cases to your shortest piece of brass and chamfer inside and outside of neck.
Bump your shoulder 0.001-0.002 on your bolt action but only after it has been fired once or twice.
Now you can work up a decent load.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:41 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.