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  #161  
Old 12-06-2013, 6:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle. View Post
Correct. So by your own wording, and by the prerequisites set by CADOJ, and by simple understanding of how a machine gun vs. a semi-automatic rifle
functions, is it safe to say the 3MR is NOT a multi-burst trigger activator?


Scenario-you get arrested by an officer of the law that doesn't understand aforementioned functions. You get booked, arraigned, and your fair and speedy trial.

You are being judged by a judge who you have no clue if they are a shooter or not, and being evaluated for guilt by jurors who are too ****ing stupid to get out of jury duty.

Your legal representation brings in its star SME witness, an ATF agent of the NFA branch, probably their chief firearms technology researcher WHO SIGNED THE LETTER, and has him/her explain briefly why it is not a machine gun.

Prosecution calls DOJ as their witness, and the DOJ has to explain that there hasn't been a ruling as to whether or not it is or is not a multi-burst trigger activator.

Would I want to be in that position? No. Would I be worried? Maybe, but I wouldn't have much to worry about. You'd have federal firearms "experts" backing you saying it doesn't make an AR a machine gun. The most the state can do is get a ruling from the DOJ, in which case(if they find it illegal), you could plea for immunity because, at the time, it was not illegal.

#notalawyer
What you are saying right now is not what I am talking about. I agree with you and have said as much earlier in this thread.

I was calling you out on saying that by the wording in the law, increasing the speed in which the bolt flies back and then locks into battery has nothing to do with it being a multi burst trigger activator.

Maybe Im missing your point and you were being facetious about that, but it seemed like you thought that you were being super technical in the reading of the law.
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  #162  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by VendetAR View Post
What you are saying right now is not what I am talking about. I agree with you and have said as much earlier in this thread.

I was calling you out on saying that by the wording in the law, increasing the speed in which the bolt flies back and then locks into battery has nothing to do with it being a multi burst trigger activator.

Maybe Im missing your point and you were being facetious about that, but it seemed like you thought that you were being super technical in the reading of the law.
1-The only POSSIBLE thing to make the bolt move quicker on the trigger's end is a lighter hammer spring, which would provide less resistance upon cycling. In theory.
Do law makers understand this? No. They understand law, and they have a basic understanding of what a gun looks like and no clue how they work.

2-The law is simply written as it is. By its own definitions and structure, slidefire and 3mr are legal.

A coworker of mine explained it to me like this-there are three degrees that items like this fall under-Safe, Legal, and Lawyer Safe. The 3MR is Safe and Legal. It hasn't been lawyer tested yet, however, I am willing to bet the letter from the ATF will be more than worth its weight in gold should an interaction with law enforcement occur.
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  #163  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdsonny View Post
You can put the tac-con trigger in any AR pattern rifle. IT DOES NOT MATTER. It's a trigger. Everyone needs to CTFO.
Also, to caveat, I have never seen a semi-automatic rifle with civilian advertisement have an advertised rate of fire, so, unless the manufacturer includes that information in the manual, neither you nor CADOJ knows if the ROF has been increased.
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  #164  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:22 PM
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While there are issues with Kyles posts already addressed, I believe there is a seed of truth in one of his statements.

My understanding is that the cyclic rate of gas operated systems on full auto will be higher if the gas system is shorter (i.e. the gas port is closer to the chamber). This is because the system is under slightly higher pressure for a slightly longer time (all other things being equal).
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  #165  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kyle. View Post
1-The only POSSIBLE thing to make the bolt move quicker on the trigger's end is a lighter hammer spring, which would provide less resistance upon cycling. In theory.
Do law makers understand this? No. They understand law, and they have a basic understanding of what a gun looks like and no clue how they work.

You said that putting a CARBINE gas system in place of a RIFLE gas system was the equivalent of building a MG by CA law. I wasnt talking about the trigger end at all

2-The law is simply written as it is. By its own definitions and structure, slidefire and 3mr are legal.

They are by my reading, but it would be up to 12 dumb come idiotic people to determine that.

A coworker of mine explained it to me like this-there are three degrees that items like this fall under-Safe, Legal, and Lawyer Safe. The 3MR is Safe and Legal. It hasn't been lawyer tested yet, however, I am willing to bet the letter from the ATF will be more than worth its weight in gold should an interaction with law enforcement occur.[

Your friend is smart, but never assume a letter is worth aything more than the paper its written on. Look at our Constitution for proof.
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  #166  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Experimentalist View Post
While there are issues with Kyles posts already addressed, I believe there is a seed of truth in one of his statements.

My understanding is that the cyclic rate of gas operated systems on full auto will be higher if the gas system is shorter (i.e. the gas port is closer to the chamber). This is because the system is under slightly higher pressure for a slightly longer time (all other things being equal).
You are correct although Id argue that there isn't slightly more pressure between the two systems, there is a lot more. This is why carbines and pistol builds eat themselves alive. Build a middy and your parts will live a happy life.
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  #167  
Old 12-06-2013, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by VendetAR View Post
...
That's a horrible attitude to have. Our Constitution is worth more than the paper it is on, regardless of what some scumbag in any given position tries to do with it. Come time, that constitution will draw a line in the sand, and when it is crossed, big changes will happen.

Those 12 dumb people are going to have to listen briefly to the country's top firearms expert say that the 3mr is "not a multi-burst trigger activator." There is very little to argue with about that. And since the DOJ has stayed silent, as they usually do, there are likely to be minimal repercussions if any.

Given that a rifle that is legal pursuant to CA PC's and no laws were broken. Of course.
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  #168  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:45 PM
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Planes, elevators, staircases, balloons, and stepstools are all multi-burst trigger activators as defined by CA legislature. By raising elevation, and decreasing the force of gravity, time moves at a faster rate (thanks Einstein!);therefore, even if you are pulling the trigger at the same rate, you will be shooting faster in reference to ground level. You are all felons, prove me wrong.
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  #169  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dead*Reckoned View Post
Planes, elevators, staircases, balloons, and stepstools are all multi-burst trigger activators as defined by CA legislature. By raising elevation, and decreasing the force of gravity, time moves at a faster rate (thanks Einstein!);therefore, even if you are pulling the trigger at the same rate, you will be shooting faster in reference to ground level. You are all felons, prove me wrong.
But did the plane, elevator ect pull the trigger after it was activated to shoot more than one round?

If we wanna talk about space time, the antis eyes will glaze over and say gravity is illegal lol
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  #170  
Old 12-06-2013, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by VendetAR View Post
But did the plane, elevator ect pull the trigger after it was activated to shoot more than one round?

If we wanna talk about space time, the antis eyes will glaze over and say gravity is illegal lol
Thing about multiburst trigger activators is that they don't have to touch the trigger, as seen by the slidefire. If it increases the rate of fire, by any rate other than human intervention it is a MBTA is what i'm understanding, lol.
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  #171  
Old 12-21-2013, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wdsonny View Post
You can put the tac-con trigger in any AR pattern rifle. IT DOES NOT MATTER. It's a trigger. Everyone needs to CTFO.
Agreed. A recent article on it states that the third position does nothing more than allow for a shorter reset. I'm going to get one. Probably will only use the third setting when I'm around individuals that aren't going to trip. Hope to not end up being the test case, but damn the gun laws here are stupid as ****.
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  #172  
Old 01-13-2014, 9:47 PM
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Ok, after viewing how the device works and reading the thread here is my conclusion. I hope this should put things into perspective. Let me know if I did a good job at explaining this.

How I see the Tac Con trigger:

Current triggers we have on our guns (pretend its double action only with long travel and heavy weight)

Tac on trigger (pretend its a double action trigger with single action trigger option at a lighter pull with less travel)

Single action would speed up the rate of fire with less trigger travel and weight to pull vs. double action only, but both will still require one trigger pull per shot.



In my understanding, no its not a multi-burst tirgger. Tac-con is just a refined trigger like changing a double action only gun to a double action with light single action option.

This is the best example I can come up with to explain this device. Like a revolver DAO trigger upgraded to a STI single action race gun trigger.

If Tac-con refined trigger is illegal or considered a multi-burst trigger then all after market trigger kits or polishing your trigger for a lighter pull would be illegal.



Would I buy one? no, a tuned trigger will shoot fast enough (magpul video comes to mind)

Would CA DOJ make it illegal? who knows, most laws are ridiculous and passed on FUD or illogical reasons.



------------

From the arguments I've read. Its like we all own double action only revolver, a brand new pistol with a new technology called single action trigger is released and people are bickering that it speeds of the rate of firing and its illegal when all it is less trigger travel, less trigger weight and faster resets. Its no different than a competition trigger IMHO


Geissele S3G Trigger



Last edited by kel-tec-innovations; 01-13-2014 at 9:53 PM..
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  #173  
Old 01-13-2014, 10:13 PM
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There was a review today on the firearm blog; they weren't impressed...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-auto-trigger/
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  #174  
Old 01-13-2014, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by umd View Post
There was a review today on the firearm blog; they weren't impressed...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-auto-trigger/
Yea, didn't hear about this until Mac talked about it on Facebook. I'd stick with a competition trigger. $500 is steep. I think what made it stand out or a stir was the selector lever
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  #175  
Old 01-14-2014, 1:13 PM
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Shot one at shotshow. It's pretty legit. Reminds me of a paintball gun trigger on a angel.
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  #176  
Old 01-14-2014, 9:01 PM
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The legal argument is interesting there is definitely some good points but unfortunately I think they will come up with any thing to brand it illegal regardless of it being the trigger group and not acting upon the trigger like the slide fire for example.
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  #177  
Old 01-17-2014, 8:11 PM
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Like others have said, how is this legally different than the Geisselle SD3G trigger?
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  #178  
Old 01-18-2014, 7:52 AM
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...8#post13231048
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  #179  
Old 01-18-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Rukus View Post
Like others have said, how is this legally different than the Geisselle SD3G trigger?
Because of the usage of the third position on the selector, it may cause LEOs to think the firearm is a MG and arrest/jail/confiscate based on that point of view.

Bottom line, you have to ask yourself...
Does this $500 gimmick trigger system worth running the risk of having your property confiscated, doing jail time and spending $10,000-$30,000 in court fees to determine if it is legal in CA.
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  #180  
Old 01-18-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Because of the usage of the third position on the selector, it may cause LEOs to think the firearm is a MG and arrest/jail/confiscate based on that point of view.

Bottom line, you have to ask yourself...
Does this $500 gimmick trigger system worth running the risk of having your property confiscated, doing jail time and spending $10,000-$30,000 in court fees to determine if it is legal in CA.
Let them go for it, its not a MG, the lower doesnt have the step cut out or the third hole. They confiscate the gun, and the lawsuit will pay for a LOT more guns for me.

Also, a trigger is a trigger, simple. The law states that if a gun fires MORE then one round with each pull of the trigger, it is a machine gun. This trigger fires one shot with every trigger pull, it just does it quickly.
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  #181  
Old 01-18-2014, 12:58 PM
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I'd never heard of this trigger until a guy came through the shop where I work talking about it. The story he told me was that someone called the cops on him when he was at the range. LEO showed up, checked out the letter that comes with the trigger, had the guy break open his rifle to look at it. Then the LEO made the statement, "gonna have to get me 1".

I'm not that impressed really because the price and I can shoot my SD-3G pretty dang fast anyways
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does it come with a flat billed hat, and a spade shirt?
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  #182  
Old 01-18-2014, 1:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonnorcal View Post
I'd never heard of this trigger until a guy came through the shop where I work talking about it. The story he told me was that someone called the cops on him when he was at the range. LEO showed up, checked out the letter that comes with the trigger, had the guy break open his rifle to look at it. Then the LEO made the statement, "gonna have to get me 1".

I'm not that impressed really because the price and I can shoot my SD-3G pretty dang fast anyways
well a legal full auto m4 m16 is what $15,000+ & that could be the $ of a lower or just a regestered auto sear
if you live in NV or AZ or other free state
why is $500 out of line again?
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  #183  
Old 01-18-2014, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
well a legal full auto m4 m16 is what $15,000+ & that could be the $ of a lower or just a regestered auto sear
if you live in NV or AZ or other free state
why is $500 out of line again?
Well yeah when you compare it to a transferable m16 then sure it looks like a great deal
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does it come with a flat billed hat, and a spade shirt?
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  #184  
Old 01-18-2014, 1:24 PM
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Well yeah when you compare it to a transferable m16 then sure it looks like a great deal
What bothered me the most was when the guy was telling me the story and he said the someone called the cops on him........
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  #185  
Old 01-18-2014, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonnorcal View Post
Well yeah when you compare it to a transferable m16 then sure it looks like a great deal
i THINK THAT IS THE MARKET THEY MADE THESE FOR
THOSE THAT WANT FULL AUTO WITHOUT THE HIGH PRICE TAG
cap lock,sorry
I won't bother with 1 of these in calif though,just going to get haressed,lean to bump fire..........I need to learn better myself cost $$$$$$$$$ to pratice
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  #186  
Old 01-18-2014, 1:50 PM
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i THINK THAT IS THE MARKET THEY MADE THESE FOR
THOSE THAT WANT FULL AUTO WITHOUT THE HIGH PRICE TAG
cap lock,sorry
I won't bother with 1 of these in calif though,just going to get haressed,lean to bump fire..........I need to learn better myself cost $$$$$$$$$ to pratice
hahaha, stop yelling at me
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  #187  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:21 PM
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I believe i can shoot faster with my own finger than spending that amount of money for a trigger that looks like it marginally increases the rate of fire but not by much. I still think the slidefire stock works better in comparison.
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  #188  
Old 01-19-2014, 4:47 PM
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I believe i can shoot faster with my own finger than spending that amount of money for a trigger that looks like it marginally increases the rate of fire but not by much. I still think the slidefire stock works better in comparison.
With a mil-spec trigger ? Maybe you can shoot as fast...but will you hit anything?
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  #189  
Old 01-19-2014, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kyle. View Post
I understand that, which is why I said its good to go. Litigation wiggle room finds itself if you install it on a factory rifle vs. a build.




Correct. So by your own wording, and by the prerequisites set by CADOJ, and by simple understanding of how a machine gun vs. a semi-automatic rifle
functions, is it safe to say the 3MR is NOT a multi-burst trigger activator?


Scenario-you get arrested by an officer of the law that doesn't understand aforementioned functions. You get booked, arraigned, and your fair and speedy trial.

You are being judged by a judge who you have no clue if they are a shooter or not, and being evaluated for guilt by jurors who are too ****ing stupid to get out of jury duty.

Your legal representation brings in its star SME witness, an ATF agent of the NFA branch, probably their chief firearms technology researcher WHO SIGNED THE LETTER, and has him/her explain briefly why it is not a machine gun.

Prosecution calls DOJ as their witness, and the DOJ has to explain that there hasn't been a ruling as to whether or not it is or is not a multi-burst trigger activator.

Would I want to be in that position? No. Would I be worried? Maybe, but I wouldn't have much to worry about. You'd have federal firearms "experts" backing you saying it doesn't make an AR a machine gun. The most the state can do is get a ruling from the DOJ, in which case(if they find it illegal), you could plea for immunity because, at the time, it was not illegal.

#notalawyer
You will not be allowed to call that witness and ask that question because the charge is not whether it is a machine gun. He could be asked if it increased the rate of fire. So far the best argument IMO is that Cali law only prohibits attachments to the weapon that increase the rate of fire, but this is a trigger and a trigger is not an attachment. The actual mechanics of this still elude me but I am thinking like many it is legal, but given the Cali limit on mag capacity it is of little value, and if needed the legislature will soon amend the statute to take care of any vagueness or other "loophole".
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  #190  
Old 01-22-2014, 2:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
It is a mechanical analog of a belt loop used for bump fire.

But don't tell the DOJ and our legislature that. They won't agree.
Belt loops are illegal in Kalifornia if carrying a semi auto shooty thingy. Suspenders can be worn and MUST be a color coordinated accessory to ones outfit while in possession of a semi auto shooty thingy, but must not be modified in a way that allows one to bump fire and spray bullets. Just remember that if it sounds fast and looks evil, you are so wrong.

I recommend people found in violation of this should also lose their state citizenship and deported to Arizona or other state that allows all sorts of evil shooty thingys.
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  #191  
Old 01-23-2014, 2:43 PM
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I read a real online review of this thing-

turns out I was wrng, there's no bolt carrier assist function.

All the 3rd position does is allow a harder reset (and maybe a lighter pull? I forget). The review seems to suggest it kind of sucks.
People test firing it at SHOT also had problems getting it to run fast like the video guys.

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  #192  
Old 01-23-2014, 8:11 PM
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Shot show video. Ya, not spending $500 on this!





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92dlnqCAO-A
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Old 01-23-2014, 8:21 PM
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Old 01-23-2014, 8:58 PM
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How about I just buy a Ghost Gun instead? Didn't you hear- it can shoot a .30 caliber clip with 30 bullets in half a second...
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Old 01-25-2014, 9:29 AM
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What if someone puts a tac con trigger in a ghost gun that is 26.25" long with a sg15 brace and a forward grip. DeStalin's head is exploding at the mere thought of that.
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  #196  
Old 01-25-2014, 8:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riddler408 View Post
Shot show video. Ya, not spending $500 on this!
Yeah, no shizz. wth? It doesn't look any different than a regular semi-auto trigger. I'll stick with my SSA.
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Old 01-25-2014, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6114DAVE View Post
With a mil-spec trigger ? Maybe you can shoot as fast...but will you hit anything?
And for how long could he keep up the rate of fire?
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Old 02-08-2014, 2:40 PM
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according to the makers, the third position has a sear that releases the disconnect from the trigger sooner, so time between actual trigger reset and following shots are shortened.

based on that, In no way does the third position "activate" the trigger for a "multiburst" operation. If anything, the third position "activates" (if you can even define it as that) the disconnect.

the trigger is still manipulated by solely by the individual.
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:15 AM
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As short of a reset as you want (as possible), and as short a takeup as you want (within a safety margin), and LEGAL.

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...prod42038.aspx

All for sub $200. Some pooh-pooh adjustable triggers as unreliable, but it has way less parts than the 3MR.

-Dave
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Just seems like a super light trigger with a super short reset. I think it's still semi auto
That's it, a super short reset. Finger still has to manipulate the trigger for every shot.

I'm been planning on getting one since the first time I heard about it and saw the video.
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