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  #1  
Old 06-29-2008, 8:25 AM
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Default NRA Coalition's California Plan

The incorporation lawsuits are not the extent of the NRA's plan nationally, nor is the SF suit all that is planned in California. We have a full "dream sheet" of litigation we want to bring, using both the Heller ruling and the Fiscal preemption ruling (Prop H).

NRA is leading and working with like minded civil rights groups including CRPA, CCRKBA, SAF (represented by Alan Gura), GOC, PP and reps from calguns. Hopefully we can hold all the groups together for the long haul. Factionalism is counterproductive. At this stage everyone seems to recognize that overreaching too soon could result in bad precendent not just for California, but nationally.

Some examples of what is coming down the road:

Oakland has already been served with a pre-litigation demand to repeal its "ultra compact handgun" ban. SF's UCH and .50 caliber handgun bans are also in our sights.

A renewed challenge to all or part of the semi-auto ban is also in the works. CRPA has already has significant funding set aside for this effort. TMLLP is coordinating with Calguns on a semi-auto licensing suit, which may include other elements. We can work together on this effort, but we need to time it carefully. This case is probably not the forum to litigate the incorporation issue. Consider how clean the SF ban on guns in publlic housing challenge is -- the SF gun ban is broader than the ban that SCOTUS struck down in Heller. That allows the lawyers on our side to focus the court on the threshold incorporation issue. Until we get that issue resolved, state and local governments are not restricted by the Heller ruling.

I am also in contact with some of the lawyers and groups advancing CCW litigation. This is also a licensing issue, not as clean as challenging a flat out ban.

There are a lot more possibilities. Lawyers are still studying the Heller decision and considering its implications. Ultimately though, any case chalenging a state of local law in California will have to get a hearing before the Ninth Circuit, or perhaps SCOTUS, on the incorporation issue. Hopefully, everyone in the self-defense civil rights community can appreciate the need to get incorporation resolved as quickly and simply as possible before moving to phase two.

I support the fledgling calguns foundation, and encourage you to support it too. You should also know, however, that because of the depth of the legal challenges pending, any California donor making a donation to NRA-ILA, the NRA Civil Rghts Defense Fund (501(c)(3)), CRPA, or CRPA Foundation (501(c)(3)) can count on that money (and then some) being spent in California. Checks made out to those entities can be sent c/o TMLLP for processing to ensure this if you desire. (And yes - you get a free magnet. Come to think of it, I will restock my "Don't Get Screwed by California Gun Laws" screwdriver giveaway and throw one of those in too.)

Although Heller does not go as far as I would have liked, and we were one vote away from re-education camps, we are now looking forward to better days my friends.
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Last edited by CDMichel; 06-29-2008 at 8:45 AM.. Reason: typo
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  #2  
Old 06-29-2008, 8:37 AM
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Chuck, I want to personally thank you for the much needed, and important work you, and others are doing with regards to extremely poor gun laws here in CA.
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  #3  
Old 06-29-2008, 1:44 PM
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Everyone should know that as Chuck alludes to, there is a lot of co-ordination to make sure we've got the right folks on the right issues.

Also, donations to The Calguns Foundation will go to supporting suits to advance gun rights in CA and/or defending innocent gun owners who are wrongly charged.

There is a whole lot of pre-litigation work over the next couple of weeks as CGF and everyone else would love to not have to sue to get a lot of the things that we all want.

The first major volleys in this battle that are publicly trackable are Chuck's case and Don Kilmer's Nordyke appeal. Keep your eye on both of those and SAF/Gura in Chicago as well.

It is so much fun to be on the offensive!

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Old 06-29-2008, 6:30 PM
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I am glad to read about all the coordinated behind-the-scenes work that the various pro-2nd A RKBA groups are doing to help the PRK rejoin Free America ("Wolverines!").
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDMichel View Post
Some examples of what is coming down the road:

Oakland has already been served with a pre-litigation demand to repeal its "ultra compact handgun" ban. SF's UCH and .50 caliber handgun bans are also in our sights.
If you're looking for other targets, . . .

Berkeley Bans the Sale or Possession of Semi-auto Rifles
Go to: http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Content...y.aspx?id=7134
and check out BMC 13.74 in the "Titles 1 through 22" .pdf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDMichel View Post
Although Heller does not go as far as I would have liked, and we were one vote away from re-education camps
All too true. I just hope Heller is not strangled in the cradle by a bunch of Obama appointed SC justices. While the legal fight Chuck lays out sounds great, if we lose on the national political scene, it could be a short fight. Watch the first 5 min of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLsDnuxn4S4

Last edited by Paladin; 06-29-2008 at 11:40 PM.. Reason: fixed link
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Old 06-29-2008, 10:17 PM
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Awesome work!

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Old 06-29-2008, 10:17 PM
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Woo-hoo! Thanks for the information, this is an exciting time.

Paladin: that's a bad link, but IIRC the Berkeley ban only applies to long guns; there is an explicit barrel length mentioned. It's definitely an action item and hopefully can be removed without an actual court challenge.

hoffmang pointed out elsewhere that the AWB, normal-capacity magazine ban, and approved handgun list may be open to immediate equal-protection challenges under the 14th amendment -- without incorporation -- since these bans have exceptions LEO in their non-professional capacity. Is this viable or under consideration?

I'm not a California resident yet, but I'll definitely chip in for this good cause!
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Old 06-29-2008, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody_special View Post
Paladin: that's a bad link, but IIRC the Berkeley ban only applies to long guns; there is an explicit barrel length mentioned. It's definitely an action item and hopefully can be removed without an actual court challenge.
Thanks for the corrections. They have been implemented.

Hopefully, it will just cost the amount of certified postage, an envelope, 1 sheet of paper, and 15 minutes of typing for Chuck et al to make Bezerkeley see the error of its ways.

Last edited by Paladin; 06-29-2008 at 11:18 PM..
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  #8  
Old 06-29-2008, 11:21 PM
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The news keep getting better.
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  #9  
Old 06-29-2008, 11:48 PM
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We are stronger when we stand together. Thanks Chuck and the NRA.
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Old 06-30-2008, 12:54 AM
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Thank you, and give 'em hell!
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Old 06-30-2008, 1:38 PM
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This is a good time to be a gun owner in California.... Very exciting times to come
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Old 06-30-2008, 1:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDMichel View Post
I am also in contact with some of the lawyers and groups advancing CCW litigation. This is also a licensing issue, not as clean as challenging a flat out ban.
While it's not as clear as a ban, in effect many CA counties have a de facto ban. How can we possess handguns for self protection, as SCOTUS says is our right, if we have to leave them at home?

At the very least, we need to lose 12031 as to cars.
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Old 06-30-2008, 1:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthonysmanifesto View Post
Chuck-

keeping the community abreast to the extent you can - like in this posting- is huge for us.

we want to know what we can know and how we can help- and I sincerely thank you for taking the time to come on here and give us a heads up.

these are very exciting times.
yes please keep us informed like your post. it helps reduce guessing that a lot here are doing. i'm looking forward to seeing laws in this state meet the shredder and go where they belong.

i do like that all or part of the AWB may get slammed.

keep us up to date as you can.
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  #14  
Old 06-30-2008, 3:58 PM
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Thank you for the update. Check inbound.
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  #15  
Old 06-30-2008, 4:35 PM
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Two thumbs up for all your hard work, and thanks for the update. Lets hope the Heller decision is a first in a long line of court decisions to go our way. God knows we've had the legislature working against us for a long time.
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Old 06-30-2008, 4:39 PM
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Thanks, Chuck. (Hi to Jason!)

Forward!
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Old 06-30-2008, 8:56 PM
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First off, great news, and thanks for all that has been and will be done. But with all due respect, why doesnít the NRA advertise to the masses to gain more members? How about some bill boards, commercials, etc. Hell, at least hit the conservative talks shows with commercial spots.

Most people donít even realize that the NRA does anything other than fight in court. How about advertising some shooting matches and beginner safety training? The later would help to strengthen the name of the NRA. (personally I wish more gun owners would take a beginners safety class)

Is there a reason we donít see the NRA advertising?
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Old 06-30-2008, 9:15 PM
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Thanks, Chuck for all the hard work and for taking the time to inform us of the upcoming challenges.

I will be adding another payment for my NRA lifetime membership very soon.

All I can say - its GREAT to be part of this group! I haven't been around for a while but I try to keep up when I can.
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Old 06-30-2008, 9:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
First off, great news, and thanks for all that has been and will be done. But with all due respect, why doesnít the NRA advertise to the masses to gain more members? How about some bill boards, commercials, etc. Hell, at least hit the conservative talks shows with commercial spots.
Cost vs benefit.
You might recall NRA advertised on CNN back in the later 80s. It doesn't now.

NRA does advertise where it gets bang for the buck.

NRA running full-page ads in SF Comicle or NY Times will just be peein' in the wind.
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:01 AM
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Thank you very much for the update and contributions are on the way as we speak.

I had the honor of meeting Wayne LaPierre back in 2003. I asked him "Why does the NRA not put more of an effort for us in California" He said "We have huge plans for California" well I havent seen much but I still donate to the NRA in hopes that ONE DAY they will. Now with Heller as a major tool in their arsenal, I hope they will clean up alot of the unconstitutional mess that was pushed upon us.

I wish us all luck.
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Old 07-01-2008, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Cost vs benefit.
You might recall NRA advertised on CNN back in the later 80s. It doesn't now.

NRA does advertise where it gets bang for the buck.

NRA running full-page ads in SF Comicle or NY Times will just be peein' in the wind.
I see what your saying, but I would think that conservative talk shows would provide some bang for the buck. Of course Iím no marketing expert.

Iíve noticed that some ranges have started to advertise on the radio. The message they send is very positive, advertising safety lessons, noting it as a family sport, etc. That puts a smile on my face and I believe it does a lot of good in changing the way some folks think about firearms. Advertise shooting as a sport, and you no longer pee in the wind when talking to the PETA or the ďjust call 911Ē types. Letís face it, some people will never agree with hunting, or self defense, but I think everyone enjoys a good time.

Anyway, enough rambling. I think you get what I'm sayin.
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Old 07-01-2008, 2:04 PM
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It seems to me that the outright ban on AWs should be a slam dunk.
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Old 07-01-2008, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
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It seems to me that the outright ban on AWs should be a slam dunk.
I've been worrying that OLLs have complicated our fight...
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Old 07-01-2008, 2:55 PM
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Quote:
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I've been worrying that OLLs have complicated our fight...
How so? If anything, I would think that a rational perspective of OLL vs. AW, grounded by the Heller ruling, would actually help....no?
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Old 07-01-2008, 3:07 PM
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Hot diggety, excellent news. I just sent in my NRA renewel last week too.

CRPA is back in with the good fight? I missed so much being away a bit.

Been hoping for a long time to get on the offensive and attack, attack and attack some more.

Vick
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Old 07-01-2008, 3:35 PM
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Good work.. As soon as I get a job, $20 a month will be inbound..
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Old 07-01-2008, 3:50 PM
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Quote:
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How so? If anything, I would think that a rational perspective of OLL vs. AW, grounded by the Heller ruling, would actually help....no?
The state hasn't outlawed a complete class of guns - citizens can own neutered OLL semiauto rifles...
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Old 07-01-2008, 5:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
NRA does advertise where it gets bang for the buck.
Can you tell me where the NRA currently advertises in California? I have yet to see a single NRA sponsored infomercial on commonsense approaches to crime prevention.

The NRA has spent more this year on Pierre's' salary then it has in the past several years fighting legislation in the State of California. Look it up, it's a matter of public record.

If you want your $ to fight California gun legislation, donate it to California based organizations. Just my two cents.

I consider the $ I give to the NRA for my membership to be money spent toward the next Presidential campaign.

Last edited by tacticalgrunt; 07-01-2008 at 5:13 PM..
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Old 07-01-2008, 6:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticalgrunt View Post
Can you tell me where the NRA currently advertises in California? I have yet to see a single NRA sponsored infomercial on commonsense approaches to crime prevention.
Advertising guns as politics in California in 2008 is like advertising afro-sheen to the white residents of Birmingham Alabama in 1958.

You can try to claim all sorts of nasty things about NRA but I'm here to tell you that they are a key to keeping bad things from happening and rolling back bad things in this state.

Ask yourself this. Would you prefer the NRA have an Executive Director who didn't deserve a large salary?

-Gene
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Old 07-01-2008, 6:49 PM
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"Advertising guns as politics in California in 2008 is like advertising afro-sheen to the white residents of Birmingham Alabama in 1958. How about advertising commonsense resolutions to crime prevention instead of taking away law abiding citizens rights, or is this State a lost cause?

You can try to claim all sorts of nasty things about NRA but I'm here to tell you that they are a key to keeping bad things from happening and rolling back bad things in this state. Yes they do some great things nationally, but this State is neglected and is treated as a lost cause. Check the figures.

Ask yourself this. Would you prefer the NRA have an Executive Director who didn't deserve a large salary? "What specifically has LaPierre done to make 4x what his predecessor made?

I am not advocating the downfall of the NRA, but the Organization seems to be strong on new fundraising tactics(wine club), and short on results. I'll pay my dues for the national front, but all other donations go toward organizations that have not written off California just yet.
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Old 07-01-2008, 7:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticalgrunt View Post
"Advertising guns as politics in California in 2008 is like advertising afro-sheen to the white residents of Birmingham Alabama in 1958. How about advertising commonsense resolutions to crime prevention instead of taking away law abiding citizens rights, or is this State a lost cause?

You can try to claim all sorts of nasty things about NRA but I'm here to tell you that they are a key to keeping bad things from happening and rolling back bad things in this state. Yes they do some great things nationally, but this State is neglected and is treated as a lost cause. Check the figures.

Ask yourself this. Would you prefer the NRA have an Executive Director who didn't deserve a large salary? "What specifically has LaPierre done to make 4x what his predecessor made?

I am not advocating the downfall of the NRA, but the Organization seems to be strong on new fundraising tactics(wine club), and short on results. I'll pay my dues for the national front, but all other donations go toward organizations that have not written off California just yet.
2nd post and both are anti NRA. Curious.

NRA has been instrumental in California on all things OLL, overturning Prop H, and helping pass AB-2728. If that's your definition of neglect then I guess you want them to come pick you up and drive you to work.

I find it amusing that you ask what LaPierre has done to deserve more pay and then immediately jump to the fact that he's increased NRA's revenues...

Now, again. Why do you want to piss away money advertising something to an unreceptive audience exactly?

-Gene
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:42 PM
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Tacticalgrunt, keep your anti-NRA vendetta over on your own forum, coming here to pick a fight is not exactly tactful nor welcome.

Yes, I know about CA Pred Club and such, we don't need cross forum postings.
You have your own soap box, use it.

ETA: In accordance with my comments in this post I have registered on the CPC forum in order to keep an eye on some of our more vociferous members. I don't like cross forum issues here and discourage them elsewhere by our members.
All that does is make us even more fragmented when we need to be united.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Tacticalgrunt, keep your anti-NRA vendetta over on your own forum, coming here to pick a fight is not exactly tactful nor welcome.

Yes, I know about CA Pred Club and such, we don't need cross forum postings.
You have your own soap box, use it.
Who is this guy on CPC? I couldn't find someone named "tacticalgrunt"
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:52 PM
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Some people aren't tactical all the time.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:52 PM
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TactcialGrunt, are you Robert Ricker? or Feldman?

Seems the yahoos come out when NRA has earned favorable news.

BTW, what has Wayne LaPierre & NRA done?
- drove passage Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act;
- drove killing of Fed AW ban;
- provided legal/political backfill & funding ato ensure Heller was a sure thing;
(getting tons of DAs and "sense of the legislature" statements was
a real coup, something beyond the resources of the orig small legal team).
- actually has intelligent liason staff in CA.

NRA is on enemy territory in CA and we've held off some bad stuff and exploited legal openings (OLLs, single-action & single-shot exemptions, etc.)

AB2728 stopped the further listing of AWs and offered prospective reduction to a nuisance penalty.

Many of the issues in CA are actually due to *other* gun orgs being stupid.
- SB15 'safe handgun law' was driven by CRPA, with help of SASS 'leadership';
- AB1471 microstamping & AB821 lead ammo restrictions were driven by political naivete
of GOC's Sam Paredes doing the wrong thing at the absolute wrong time;
- CRPA lobbyist/leadership (Kathy Lynch & boyfriend Gerry Upholt) supported various mailorder ammo bans
(Torrico AB2731).

NRA's CA leadership and its CA lawyers (sometimes in conjunction with national staff) will be eviscerating a host of CA gun laws in the next 2-3 years.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Some people aren't tactical all the time.
Gotcha!
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  #37  
Old 07-01-2008, 11:05 PM
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For the record, as far as the forum is concerned we'll work with anyone who is willing to work with us and can show that they are right there with us when it gets ugly.

So far, out of all the major and minor groups the ONLY one to be there in the meetings and hearings, to talk to us directly and let us know what's going on and to have on site, in person meetings with our members to see what we want and ask what OUR concerns are has been the NRA.

No other group, let me repeat that, NO OTHER GROUP, has contacted the members here and ever asked 'What is important to you?'. Oddly enough they instead have sent out form emails asking for funds and no one seems to take them to task for it... That sounds like either ignorance or willful blindness.

I have stated before and I will do so now, if the any of the pro gun groups want to actually work with the members here to affect change and are willing to show by their actions they are welcome here. We're not about any one group, we're about making things change for the better and that means working together instead of trying to see who can usurp who and who feels important.
It is better to speak firmly in unison then to shout in a of cacophony 'full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.'
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  #38  
Old 07-01-2008, 11:17 PM
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Wow...all this UNITY stuff is making me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Next stop - drumming circles, man hugs and kumbaya.

In all seriousness, thank you, Mr. Michel, Mr. Davis, Mr. Wiese, Mr. Cannon, Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Kilmer, Mr. Kestryll, Mr. Thomason....and all the rest of you folks that get up every morning and think of ways to take the fight to the other guys for a change.

In the past 5 years, I've seen some truly amazing things in California. I have even greater hope for the future.

Extra-special thanks to Mr. Gura and Mr. Levy for having the stones...
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Old 07-02-2008, 5:11 PM
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I was under the impression that this forum thread was meant for meaningful discussion on our second amendment rights. I was wrong. Apparently if one speaks a different opinion from the masses he is attacked and called a traitor. I see you colors.

I have and always will support the NRA. But have a different opionion on how things are being dealt with in California specificly, so I must be an anti....right? I will not continue to waste my time here. Thanks for the reception.....brother.

p.s. I own many weapons and some are shown on CPC. Believe it or not we are on the same team.
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Old 07-02-2008, 5:51 PM
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Grunt,

We can't have meaningful discussion when you yourself throw random nonfacts out or idiocies like "advertising about crime prevention".

Do you even know what a media campaign costs? And what the cost/benefit ratio is? I thought not. NRA does not have a product (widgets, cars, clothes, bottled water to sell) to fund consumer-level advertising.

Wayne makes what he makes because he's led things in the right direction and to get another person of equal skill & background & polish and ability to deal with politicians would cost about the same. People with skill sets like that have a lotta varied opportunities. Joe Blow, no matter how pro-gun he is, ain't gonna be able to cut it at that level.

Your opinions on what goes on in CA aren't too relevant. Anyone can kibitz.

California has a unique political environment and sometimes battles are best fought in courts and without a lotta advertising, and working behind the scenes. Tell me how your wonderful ad campaign is gonna play in population centers like SF and LA.

BTW much of California's recent gun issues are due to lack of a functional Republican party, which allows the Democrats to move even further left.

I do believe your rampant posts here and on other forums all of a sudden after recent favorable news about NRA indeed form what is known as "trolling".
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Last edited by bwiese; 07-02-2008 at 5:55 PM..
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