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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-02-2014, 8:14 AM
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Default The Liberal Gun Club: story on SFGate

Some gun owners with liberal views have a club of their own (they're affiliated with the CMP markmanship program):
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...bs-5107330.php

Their forum is located here:
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com

I'm glad those guys are given this publicity. The public needs to know gun owners come in all types.
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Old 01-02-2014, 8:27 AM
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beat me to it…was just about to post the link too. Pretty interesting. Like anything in life, everybody is not going to agree with everything just because of 1 common thread. So even though they may not agree with the NRA I think its great that there are people who identify with democratic liberals and are most likely politically active, who share the same views on gun ownership and all these b.s. laws that are going through…. it's like an untapped market that they might be able to get in and change people's opinions. one person at a time and soon enough….one can only hope.
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Old 01-02-2014, 8:46 AM
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Living in the Bay Area, it took a while to find them. She and other members acknowledge that left-leaning gun lovers are one group that's still very much "in the closet."

Larry, a retired Episcopal priest who declined to give his last name for publication - he's worried about what friends and co-workers may think - says he found the club "the same way everyone else here did: I Googled 'liberal' and 'guns.' "
Heh.
You can add a fourth character to the cartoon below: a guy with a rifle slung on his shoulder, holding a sign that reads "Gun Owners and Hunters for Democrat Party"

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Old 01-02-2014, 8:57 AM
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A WWII M1 Carbine is considered an assault weapon? If a mag is inserted with more than 10 rounds? But not assault weapon if inserted with 10 rd mag? Who works for the media? GEESH!
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Old 01-02-2014, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by shortround13 View Post
So even though they may not agree with the NRA I think its great that there are people who identify with democratic liberals and are most likely politically active, who share the same views on gun ownership and all these b.s. laws that are going through…. it's like an untapped market that they might be able to get in and change people's opinions. one person at a time and soon enough….one can only hope.
Hopefully the sign of many good things to come, in a united fight across the board for 2A.
Who knows,the LGBT group might end up pushing San Francisco & the Bay Area to a shall issue….
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Old 01-02-2014, 9:13 AM
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Hopefully the sign of many good things to come, in a united fight across the board for 2A.
Who knows,the LGBT group might end up pushing San Francisco & the Bay Area to a shall issue….
There are the Pink Pistols, but I haven't really seen much of them in the press lately.
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Old 01-02-2014, 9:16 AM
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Being one who believes the government should obey the Constitution, I probably wouldn't fit in there either.
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Old 01-02-2014, 9:20 AM
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What a bunch of idiots. I thought Lib's were about peace, love, & rainbows? According to the comments below the article, they want conservatives & NRA members dead. This reinforces my reasoning to steer clear of the Bay Area, Lib's, & anything to do with them. In the big picture, they're still Lib's. They'll continue to vote for the types that are destroying the country. Don't kid yourself into believing otherwise just because they own a gun or two.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:02 AM
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It's unlikely that Norquist, the conservative organizer, would find much to like about the liberal group that boasts more than 1,000 members nationally, including a recently formed Northern California chapter with about a dozen members.
They are neck and neck with Obamacare signups...

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And she insists there are many politically liberal folks in California who are eager to shoot, learn marksmanship, buy and collect guns - or even own guns for self-protection - except "they think gun people are people they want nothing to do with."
Again, it's about cultural intolerance. They don't want to do anything with "those people," yet other people who wouldn't have anything to do with some other "those people" are considered racist, homophobic bigots by the same group that has decided it's acceptable to disparage some "those people" as long as they have different views.

This is a practical definition of hypocrisy.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by tankarian View Post
Heh.
You can add a fourth character to the cartoon below: a guy with a rifle slung on his shoulder, holding a sign that reads "Gun Owners and Hunters for Democrat Party"

Good one.

To the supporters of Democratic Party: either change the National Platform that explicitly calls for AWB and ban on standard capacity magazines, or accept that by supporting Democratic Party you're supporting the AWB and ban on standard capacity magazines.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:11 AM
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I'm glad those guys are given this publicity. The public needs to know gun owners come in all types.
A 1,000 gun owners would be more of an outlier than "all types." There are much better representatives of diversity within the traditional gun rights movement. There must be more than 1,000 of any flavor in the NRA.

The liberal gun club is a place that doesn't tolerate political dissent and that talks about "common sense gun laws" as being those that prevent "those people" from owning guns, while allowing "our kind of people" to be responsible gun owners. It's the typical "cultural intolerance" hangout for the modern far left.

Supporting a bigoted organization just because they are on our side is not a good idea. Pretending that they are *not* bigoted just because they label themselves "liberal" is contrary to reality.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:24 AM
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Most liberal gun owners I've met could care less about the bans since they would never own an "assault weapon" anyway.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:06 AM
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i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:10 AM
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Equally disingenuous of you to assume that none of those folks could possibly be NRA members.

Extremists are extremists no matter which banner they fly.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amendment supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
Liberals have done more to restrict our rights than conservatives. I respect your right to practice your politics freely, but don't expect a warm welcome when you reach out to "hacks" on Calguns. You want to join a club, you have choices.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WOW, the future is doomed with thinkers like this.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.
It's your perception. Those who are used to being in groups where everyone agrees with everyone else think that they are under attack when people disagree.

It happens that people who support gun rights also tend to be conservative, but this is neither a requirement, nor are they trying to push conservativism into the gun rights movement.

Get a social liberal to be a staunch supporter of gun rights and NRA will endorse him/her/it even though many members might be conservative.

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the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
"Old white male" is a slur. Why is it so hard for people on the left to understand that insulting and stereotyping groups of people is bigotry even if you really, really, really hate those groups.

Besides, there are many LGBT, youth, women, racial minorities, the poor and immigrants in the NRA. Only an ignorant person would assume that "good people" don't associate with NRA.

FYI, I'm an immigrant, was an adult when I got to the US, came to attend graduate school, belong to the computer geeks and would be your stereotypical candidate for a lefty. Except I'm a business owner and a fiscal conservative, don't believe in handouts and believe that government should stay out of my bedroom (it's where some guns are).
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
You need to have a thick skin if you're going to post from a liberal viewpoint on Cal Guns.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:59 AM
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From their "About Us" page:

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We are geared towards typical ‘liberals’ who also happen to enjoy owning and using firearms; however, our members come from every political idealogy – Libertarian, Independent, Democrat, Republican, Green, etc. Many ‘liberals’ own guns but do not agree with the ideals of right wing gun organizations. Since many ranges, especially those controlled by local ‘gun clubs’, require membership in right wing gun groups whose views are in opposition to their own, many owners simply never get the chance to operate their weapons, and do not have a reliable source about how to properly handle and care for their firearm. A gun owner who is unfamiliar with his or her weapon is unlikely to use it properly, especially in an emergency situation.

In order to encourage fun and safe shooting among liberal gun owners, we want to provide as much information as possible to make choosing, owning, caring for and using a firearm easier.
It's an avenue for a particular gun owner and as long as they support 2A, I'm content to support them in their cause. I can understand a gay gunowner being hesitant to join and contribute to the NRA, so here is their "PC" alternative. Through this club, hopefully they become aware of the asinine laws and denounce them, possibly even educating their friends and acquaintances, thus bringing common sense and reason back into the discussion. Hearts & minds, hearts & minds.....
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
Welcome to Calguns. I wish you and your group well. There are a fair number of like minded folks here but mostly keep a low profile. When Ramon owned this site there were a lot more Democrats and "liberals" out.

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Old 01-02-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
I hate to tell you this but your "traditionally marginalized groups" used to be gun owners before LBJ started the conversion of the Democratic Party.

Just and Inconvenient Truth.
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Old 01-02-2014, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Some gun owners with liberal views have a club of their own (they're affiliated with the CMP markmanship program):
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...bs-5107330.php

Their forum is located here:
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com

I'm glad those guys are given this publicity. The public needs to know gun owners come in all types.
I've been to their website, bounced e-mails & messages with a few. Most are plain old fashioned gun owners who happen to be "liberal" (whatever the heck that means nowadays) on other subjects. My concern is that many of them are OK with restrictions such as magazine limits and AW prohibitions or limits. To each his own, but I think this presents a PR challenge for gun rights because the media is very happy to showcase "gun owners support mag limits and AW restrictions" knowing it is seen by the public as being more persuasive.

To the extent there is a broad brush of "liberals own guns too" I think it's a great benefit. I'm also hopeful liberal gun owners can somehow persuade their liberal legislators to lay off gun control. That would be a great accomplishment.
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Old 01-02-2014, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
Can someone Translate this for me, i don't speak sheep.
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Old 01-02-2014, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RobGR View Post
From their "About Us" page:



It's an avenue for a particular gun owner and as long as they support 2A, I'm content to support them in their cause. I can understand a gay gunowner being hesitant to join and contribute to the NRA, so here is their "PC" alternative. Through this club, hopefully they become aware of the asinine laws and denounce them, possibly even educating their friends and acquaintances, thus bringing common sense and reason back into the discussion. Hearts & minds, hearts & minds.....
If people were really interested in shooting their guns, they would find a publuc range jearby. A club is a social organization with generally like viewpoints of the members, or a common activity to bring like minded folks together. The fact that most clubs align with the NRA is due more to insurance gosts than any particular political ideology. For example, its not Los Altos conservative white gun owners club, it Los Altos Rod and Gun Club. I use them as an example only. I have no knowledge of their member demographics, or their NRA involvement. I have shot there on weekends during public days, and the people there are a pretty diverse lot on most weekends. I can't imagine that all are hardcore conservatives, and I can see for a fact that at least 50% are not white
. To call a gun club "liberal" politicizes it. At that point, gun ownership is secondary to the clubs purpose.
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Old 01-02-2014, 1:23 PM
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I must be missing something. How is the NRA a right wing group? Yes they attack democrats who work to limit 2a rights, but they also support democrats who support the 2a. They do not get into issues other than the 2a, beyond supporting an originality view of the construction, but again their focus is how that view applies to the 2a.

Or is the problem with the membership, because liberals don't want to associate with other points of view even in support of a common goal?

Or is it that the liberal gun owners do not support the breadth of gun freedom that the NRA advocates, and instead want a more limited right than that expressed in the Constitution?
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Old 01-02-2014, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
Any review of gun ownership and gun right vs gun control pretty well shows conservatives supporting gun ownerhip far more than liberals. Were we discussing abortion the opposite would be true. There are certain broad truisms in politics.

Do you suppose folks should simply agree with you or in the alternative be called "hacks"? You refer to the "old white" demographic - is that your way of building consensus among different groups, by denigrating others? You object when it's done to you, your approach is to do it to others?

I agree with you that the "biggest opportunity" will be from those groups you mentioned, it stands to reason that's because gun ownership and support in those groups is rather low. What I hope for, what as of yet hasn't been demonstrated, is for those folks to make known their position on guns to their legislators. To be blunt, having played around in politics since 1972 and with guns for a bit longer I'm a bit weary of the "we liberals like guns too" mantra. I believe them, truly I do. I'd just like to see them get results at the polls - a little "walk the walk" and less chest thumping or indignation.
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Old 01-02-2014, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by shortround13 View Post
beat me to it…was just about to post the link too. Pretty interesting. Like anything in life, everybody is not going to agree with everything just because of 1 common thread. So even though they may not agree with the NRA I think its great that there are people who identify with democratic liberals and are most likely politically active, who share the same views on gun ownership and all these b.s. laws that are going through…. it's like an untapped market that they might be able to get in and change people's opinions. one person at a time and soon enough….one can only hope.
but it starts getting weird when you ask things like 'why do you not like the NRA?'.

Last edited by sl0re10; 01-02-2014 at 1:46 PM..
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Old 01-02-2014, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tincankilla View Post
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
Whats so bad about the NRA that they can't work with it?

Your just proving the point that your groups won't work with us.

The left is going to attack any group that opposes their goals and gun confiscation is one of their goals. If being attacked by the left is enough to push a group outside the bounds of polite political discourse on your side... then you and the groups you mention will never work together with us... unless they start a free thinking liberal club first I guess...

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Old 01-02-2014, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by not-fishing View Post
I hate to tell you this but your "traditionally marginalized groups" used to be gun owners before LBJ started the conversion of the Democratic Party.

Just and Inconvenient Truth.
Would love a link to educate myself on LBJ and gun control. I'm familiar with the national gun control act and, of course, Reagan's gun control work in CA.
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:06 PM
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Would love a link to educate myself on LBJ and gun control. I'm familiar with the national gun control act and, of course, Reagan's gun control work in CA.
The Johnson Administration pushed the GCA of 1968, I believe that's how LBJ is being referenced. Senator Tom Dodd of CT was an important proponent of the bill, he introduced it in the Senate and fashioned certain aspects of it after German law.

I never voted for Ronald Reagan and quite frankly don't understand why gun owners hold him in high regard on guns. But, any attempt to equate his actions in CA, the signing of a single bill passed by the solidly Democrat CA legislature, with LBJ or gun control efforts by a particular party, seems to me to fall very short.

Last edited by dfletcher; 01-02-2014 at 2:08 PM..
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:14 PM
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Any review of gun ownership and gun right vs gun control pretty well shows conservatives supporting gun ownerhip far more than liberals. Were we discussing abortion the opposite would be true. There are certain broad truisms in politics.

Do you suppose folks should simply agree with you or in the alternative be called "hacks"? You refer to the "old white" demographic - is that your way of building consensus among different groups, by denigrating others? You object when it's done to you, your approach is to do it to others?

I agree with you that the "biggest opportunity" will be from those groups you mentioned, it stands to reason that's because gun ownership and support in those groups is rather low. What I hope for, what as of yet hasn't been demonstrated, is for those folks to make known their position on guns to their legislators. To be blunt, having played around in politics since 1972 and with guns for a bit longer I'm a bit weary of the "we liberals like guns too" mantra. I believe them, truly I do. I'd just like to see them get results at the polls - a little "walk the walk" and less chest thumping or indignation.
a) i don't accept false equivalencies - i was reacting to comments at the top of this thread that were dismissing gun rights supporters due to their political beliefs. to assert that one isn't a real 2nd Amd supporter because you believe in progressive principles is BS. i'm well within reasonable bounds by criticizing the comments at top. in other words, i think i'm still right.

b) You and a few others have played the "old white male is a slur" card. I come from a long line of old white males and hope to be one in the future (knock on wood), so i feel free to criticize them freely, thank you very much.

c) finally, i totally get where you're coming from on the last paragraph, but i'd also point out that politics since 1972 has been all about the boomers. we're now to gen x and gen y politics and politicians, who have very different views of the world and aren't fighting the same culture war constantly. that means there is an opening for advances, not just playing defense.

to recap, my general concern is that gun rights supporters who happen to be conservative will try to use conservative issues as a litmus for supporting the 2A. so my concern, validated above, is that conservatives will try to own 2A issues and will dismiss and hector liberals who own guns and support the 2A. i fear that key liberal constituencies won't be cultivated and demographics will doom the Republic to weak support for 2A issues in 40 years.
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:20 PM
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TCK, have you ever worked for Jerry Brown?

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Old 01-02-2014, 2:28 PM
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Supporting a bigoted organization just because they are on our side is not a good idea. Pretending that they are *not* bigoted just because they label themselves "liberal" is contrary to reality.
And they will easily throw it back in your face - and rightfully so - by telling you the NRA often supports bigoted politicians.

It's time to engage in dialogue instead.
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:31 PM
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I think it's cool that there's a liberal gun club and we should be grateful for their support. That said, liberal gun rights is a fringe intersection of two different groups. Many liberals own guns but few of them advocate for gun rights. Gun rights have to do with autonomy of the individual, and that just isn't consistent with liberal objectives of a system where individuals are dependent on the government for their basic needs.
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:31 PM
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It happens that people who support gun rights also tend to be conservative, but this is neither a requirement, nor are they trying to push conservativism into the gun rights movement.
(it's where some guns are).
That is total bs. But then again I'm an Indi so I can see through the bs and hypocrisy.
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:35 PM
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I must be missing something. How is the NRA a right wing group? Yes they attack democrats who work to limit 2a rights, but they also support democrats who support the 2a. They do not get into issues other than the 2a, beyond supporting an originality view of the construction, but again their focus is how that view applies to the 2a.

Or is the problem with the membership, because liberals don't want to associate with other points of view even in support of a common goal?

Or is it that the liberal gun owners do not support the breadth of gun freedom that the NRA advocates, and instead want a more limited right than that expressed in the Constitution?
Good question. Expect it to be ignored by TCK
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:39 PM
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This is just stupid:
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In order to encourage fun and safe shooting among liberal gun owners, we want to provide as much information as possible to make choosing, owning, caring for and using a firearm easier.
Most (if not all) online gun forums have "technical only" sections so that people don't have to read about the issue-du-jour just to ask a question or talk about firearms. I suspect these people just can't help to wade into the "General Discussion" areas and find that most gun owners don't have the same policy views that they have, and can't even "virtually" associate with other gun owners on those forums that they need to start their own.
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:47 PM
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Whats so bad about the NRA that they can't work with it?

Your just proving the point that your groups won't work with us.

The left is going to attack any group that opposes their goals and gun confiscation is one of their goals. If being attacked by the left is enough to push a group outside the bounds of polite political discourse on your side... then you and the groups you mention will never work together with us... unless they start a free thinking liberal club first I guess...
to be clear, I'm not a member of the LCG, but donate to the NRA and 2AF. my parents are both lifetime members of the NRA. and frankly, i don't get why the LCG doesn't just join as a sub-chapter of the NRA. The NRA is huge and highly effective, so why not join the party? on the flip side, i found 2A rallies this year to verge WAY off 2A issues and into general conservative politics. so maybe the LCG is pushing against the politics of NRA membership, not the NRA itself.

the broad point here is that the comments at the start of this thread validate concerns of the LCG.
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:54 PM
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to be clear, I'm not a member of the LCG, but donate to the NRA and 2AF. my parents are both lifetime members of the NRA. and frankly, i don't get why the LCG doesn't just join as a sub-chapter of the NRA. The NRA is huge and highly effective, so why not join the party? on the flip side, i found 2A rallies this year to verge WAY off 2A issues and into general conservative politics. so maybe the LCG is pushing against the politics of NRA membership, not the NRA itself.

the broad point here is that the comments at the start of this thread validate concerns of the LCG.
You open with

Quote:
i was hoping that i could come to calguns and find some fellow liberals on here discussing this article, not a bunch of hacks trying to align gun ownership with conservativism.

the biggest opportunity for 2nd Amd supporters will not come from the NRA's old white male demographic, but from traditionally marginalized groups: youth, LGBT, women, racial and cultural minorities, labor unions, the poor, immigrants.
...and then you claim the responses "validate concerns of the LCG"

TROLL MUCH
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Old 01-02-2014, 2:57 PM
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"Old white male" is a slur. Why is it so hard for people on the left to understand that insulting and stereotyping groups of people is bigotry even if you really, really, really hate those groups.

Besides, there are many LGBT, youth, women, racial minorities, the poor and immigrants in the NRA. Only an ignorant person would assume that "good people" don't associate with NRA.

FYI, I'm an immigrant, was an adult when I got to the US, came to attend graduate school, belong to the computer geeks and would be your stereotypical candidate for a lefty. Except I'm a business owner and a fiscal conservative, don't believe in handouts and believe that government should stay out of my bedroom (it's where some guns are).
Thank you IVC!

To the best of my knowledge NRA doesn't release demographics of their membership base. In fact, they don't know them all anyway. IIRC they don't ask race, age, sexual preference, etc upon membership. I'm not even sure gender was a option, maybe I just don't remember that one.

So yeah, like IVC, I don't fit into the 'old white guy' stereotype.
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