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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #241  
Old 06-13-2008, 9:13 AM
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Yes, it should be legal to do an AOW on a pistol with a fixed mag. The fixed mag keeps it out of the AW realm in which the VFG would be an evil feature. I think vandal has a good idea in the way he is gonna do the process.

pto, I don't see why you couldn't build it up in Title 1 configuration and file the Form 1 afterwards. Then, after the Form comes back approved, put the VFG on and make it Title 2.

edit: +1 on the pistol definition. AFAIK, CA has no AOW definition. So AOW is not a type of firearm in CA law. However, CA says that if a specific firearm is a federally defined AOW and lawfully possessed federally, then it is exempt from all of the 12020 prohibitions.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 06-13-2008 at 9:17 AM..
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  #242  
Old 06-13-2008, 9:22 AM
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Ah! Got it! Had me goin for a minute.
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  #243  
Old 06-13-2008, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I don't see why you couldn't AOW your fixed-mag Krink pistol. It wouldn't be an AW due to the fixed-mag.

As for the ATF approving it, I could see there being some questions asked to either you or CADOJ. Who knows, it may force CADOJ to go "on the record" regarding fixed-mag setups one way or another.
There was a conversation in a different thread regarding dodging the AW status if a firearm (say AK style) was built with a solid rear block (no stock means, not shoulder fired, means its not a rifle so AW exempt), had a minimum 16" barrel (so its not a pistol) and a 26" OAL.

Just curious, what would stop someone from building an AK style firearm the same way, AOW the firearm for the SBR exemption, and replace the 16" barrel with a krink style barrel? Would this not make it a non assult weapon, detatchable mag short barrel firearm?

Last edited by AYEAREFIFTEEN; 06-13-2008 at 11:37 AM..
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  #244  
Old 06-13-2008, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN View Post
There was a conversation in a different thread regarding dodging the AW status if a firearm (say AK style) was built with a solid rear block (no stock means, not shoulder fired, means its not a rifle so AW exempt), had a minimum 16" barrel (so its not a pistol) and a 26" OAL.
That is thought to be a valid type of build that would not be a rifle or a pistol, so the thought is that, yes, it would be exempt from the AW pistol and rifle rules.

Quote:
Just curious, what would stop someone from building an AK style firearm the same way, AOW the firearm for the SBR exemption, and replace the 16" barrel with a krink style barrel? Would this not make it a non assult weapon, detatchable mag short barrel firearm?
Couple things wrong with that I see. An AOW registration does not give you an SBR exemption. If it has/had a stock, it is an SBR and can't be an AOW. If it never had a stock, then it is an AOW and can't be an SBR, since an SBR requires a shoulder stock to be on the firearm at some point.

If you had it registered as an AOW (and I'm not sure if a 16"/26" PG-only firearm could be) once you put the pistol barrel on, you've created a CA pistol. CA defines pistol as any firearm with a <16" barrel. And if it is a CA pistol, then it must comply with the CA pistol AW rules, and that means no detachable mag for you.
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  #245  
Old 06-13-2008, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
CA defines pistol as any firearm with a <16" barrel. And if it is a CA pistol, then it must comply with the CA pistol AW rules, and that means no detachable mag for you.
I was under the impression that the AOW status means it can not be defined as a pistol or a rifle regardless of the barrel length as long as it doesn't have a stock. Why does this work for a shotgun and not a centerfire?

I think pistol is also defined as "can be concealed.....blah blah." Don't see many people trying to jam a krink down their pants and conceal it.

Edit: I got the "handgun" and "pistol" deffinitions mixed up in my last sentence. You are correct about the 16" length. I'm still curious about the AOW status though not making the firearm a pistol.

Last edited by AYEAREFIFTEEN; 06-13-2008 at 12:14 PM..
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  #246  
Old 06-13-2008, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN View Post
I was under the impression that the AOW status means it can not be defined as a pistol or a rifle regardless of the barrel length as long as it doesn't have a stock. Why does this work for a shotgun and not a centerfire?
I don't think it works for a shotgun. Take for example the Remington 870 #24823, it comes with an 18" barrel and front an rear pistol grips. Is it an AOW? No. But if you cut it down to less than 18", it is an "unconventional pistol" due to being a smooth bore pistol. The front grip has nothing to do wiith the AOW ruling on a shotgon. Maybe if it was a .410 with a rifled bore, then it might need a VFG to be an AOW.

Quote:
I'm still curious about the AOW status though not making the firearm a pistol.
Not sure about the question here.
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  #247  
Old 06-13-2008, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I don't think it works for a shotgun. Take for example the Remington 870 #24823, it comes with an 18" barrel and front an rear pistol grips. Is it an AOW? No. But if you cut it down to less than 18", it is an "unconventional pistol" due to being a smooth bore pistol. The front grip has nothing to do wiith the AOW ruling on a shotgon. Maybe if it was a .410 with a rifled bore, then it might need a VFG to be an AOW.
Alright now I'm more confused than before I read all 25 pages. LOL

I guess what I'm trying to say is if its okay to AOW your cruiser to chop the barrel under 16" and it is not considered a pistol/handgun/concealable firearm, why not an AK?
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  #248  
Old 06-13-2008, 1:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN View Post
Alright now I'm more confused than before I read all 25 pages. LOL

I guess what I'm trying to say is if its okay to AOW your cruiser to chop the barrel under 16" and it is not considered a pistol/handgun/concealable firearm, why not an AK?
Oh, but I personally think it is a pistol/handgun/concealable firearm. If that is the case, then if it was semi-auto, it would need to comply with the pistol AW regs. Make it a originally single shot pistol and you should be exempt from the roster as well.

I may be wrong on this and CA may not consider an AOW to be a pistol, but I am taking the safe approach until proven otherwise.
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  #249  
Old 06-13-2008, 1:24 PM
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Don't you have to file tax returns on a trust, or some other yearly thing?
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  #250  
Old 06-13-2008, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I may be wrong on this and CA may not consider an AOW to be a pistol, but I am taking the safe approach until proven otherwise.
Perhaps this is the best course of action for a while.

In the mean time I've got a Cruiser requiring an AOW status.

If only...

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  #251  
Old 06-13-2008, 1:41 PM
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Don't you have to file tax returns on a trust, or some other yearly thing?
AFAIK, you only have tax issues if the trust makes a profit, and those can be claimed on the grantor's tax returns.
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  #252  
Old 06-13-2008, 3:36 PM
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Smoothbore. That is what makes the "cruiser" shotgun an AOW and not a pistol.

And good luck on the MCS. Even going through my department I cannot even get the fore end or action bars from Remington.

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  #253  
Old 06-13-2008, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Yup, if it was a pistol-gripped shotgun, and has never had a stock attached, you could do a Form 1 for an AOW with a trust with no CLEO signoff and no need for an NFA dealer.

Once you get the Form 1 approved, then go ahead and create your own Super Shorty. Just make sure that you never attach a stock to it or you will have created an illegal SBS.
Ok,
  1. I purchase and DROS a pistol-gripped shotgun, in my name.
  2. I create a trust, LLC, or Corp.
  3. Transfer the pistol-gripped shotgun, to the above entity.
  4. Submit the Form 1 for an AOW.
  5. Get my approval.
  6. Then create my Super Shorty
I get everything except this, how can I legally transfer the pistol-gripped shotgun, from me, to a trust, LLC, or Corp., with out the use of a FFL 01.

I once spoke to CA-DOJ about corporate ownership of firearms and their line was that only "living" entities could own firearms in CA.

Trust I have an idea about, but LLC's and corporations I have no Idea what the procedure for transfer would entail... any thoughts...

If this was covered please point me in the right direction...
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  #254  
Old 06-13-2008, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cali-V View Post
[1] I purchase and DROS a pistol-gripped shotgun, in my name.
How do you prove that your pistol-gripped "shotgun" was never a shoulder-stocked shotgun?
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  #255  
Old 06-13-2008, 4:25 PM
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Quote:
I get everything except this, how can I legally transfer the pistol-gripped shotgun, from me, to a trust, LLC, or Corp., with out the use of a FFL 01.
You notarize the transfer of assets page with the gun going to the trust. you are the Grantor and Trustee, therefore you have "possession" of it, and have authority over it in the name of the trust. There is no fingerprints belonging to the Trust, so how would you imagine doing a firearm transfer via FFL01 to it? That is the beauty of the Trust, just you , paper, and a notary and you are making asset changes as it should be in this god given world.

Too bad most things in life are not this easy....

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  #256  
Old 06-13-2008, 4:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
How do you prove that your pistol-gripped "shotgun" was never a shoulder-stocked shotgun?

Mossberg 500 JIC Thats an example...
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  #257  
Old 06-13-2008, 4:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roccobro View Post
You notarize the transfer of assets page with the gun going to the trust. you are the Grantor and Trustee, therefore you have "possession" of it, and have authority over it in the name of the trust. There is no fingerprints belonging to the Trust, so how would you imagine doing a firearm transfer via FFL01 to it? That is the beauty of the Trust, just you , paper, and a notary and you are making asset changes as it should be in this god given world.

Too bad most things in life are not this easy....

Justin
Justin

I agree the trust is easy... I love the simplicity of using a trust.
But how would a transfer to a LLC or Corp take place here in California...
Of the three, if formed correctly the LLC or Corp structure may have benefits which a trust may not offer...
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  #258  
Old 06-13-2008, 5:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cali-V View Post
Mossberg 500 JIC Thats an example...
Right - the only one that I know of, where the manufacturer sold a unique model that never had a shoulder stock....therefore, sales docs and 4473 would ID that gun as an AOW....
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  #259  
Old 06-13-2008, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
Right - the only one that I know of, where the manufacturer sold a unique model that never had a shoulder stock....therefore, sales docs and 4473 would ID that gun as an AOW....
I thought something was wrong when I first noticed them at the local gun shows...

But, I was informed, that they are pump action, they shoot shotgun shells, the barrel is over 18", and the OAL is over I think 28".... so it's a CA legal shotgun...

I think CZ makes something similar, it has a really scary standoff device...
They both were all day $300.00+ fees...
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  #260  
Old 06-13-2008, 6:01 PM
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What is the definition of "shotgun" that CA uses? If it is this one then you may be onto something:

http://www.emsa.cahwnet.gov/emsdivision/firearm_def.asp

"SHOTGUN
A firearm intended to fire from the shoulder that uses a shotgun shell to propel one or more projectiles through a long barrel with a smooth bore. It may have one or more barrels. "

I don't know if the Saiga-12 uses a standard AK flat, but if so, this might work: buy a demilled Saiga-12 kit, build one up from a flat with 18"+ barrel, AOW it with a 16.1" barrel, dual pistol grips, and have it take a detachable magazine.

Right?

Last edited by vandal; 06-13-2008 at 6:43 PM.. Reason: Corrected per GuyW's suggestion
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  #261  
Old 06-13-2008, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
....Saiga-12 uses a standard AK flat, but if so, this might work: buy a demilled Saiga-12 kit, build one up from a flat as a single-shot "CA AOW" with 18"+ barrel, convert it to semi-auto, AOW it with a 16.1" barrel, dual pistol grips, and have it take a detachable magazine.

Right?
Fixed it... (no smooth barrel pistols allowed...)
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  #262  
Old 06-13-2008, 6:33 PM
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Ah, yes. There is not a CA "AOW" definition so I don't like to use that term lest it be confused with the federal definition, but you're right -- what I was describing was not a pistol (>16"bbl), not a rifle (not a rifled bore), not a shotgun (not designed to be fired from the shoulder). And actually since it is starting with >16" barrel it would not need to be configured as single-shot to begin with (I think.)

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Fixed it... (no smooth barrel pistols allowed...)

Last edited by vandal; 06-13-2008 at 6:42 PM..
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  #263  
Old 06-13-2008, 10:55 PM
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How do you prove that your pistol-gripped "shotgun" was never a shoulder-stocked shotgun?
By buying the specific model that comes with a PG only. Keep a copy of the box label that shows the serial and what model it was. The 07/02s that I have talked to that were willing to do an AOW on a customer supplied PG-shotgun all required either a copy of, or the actual box label so that they could confirm that it left the factory as a PG gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
Right - the only one that I know of, where the manufacturer sold a unique model that never had a shoulder stock....therefore, sales docs and 4473 would ID that gun as an AOW....
Mossberg has a couple models out there. The 500 JICs and Cruisers. And Remington has one 870 model out there with the PG, model #24823.
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  #264  
Old 06-13-2008, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackrazor View Post
OK, here's what I'm thinking.

We all know the detachable magazine semi-auto shotgun (think Saiga-12) is an AW here in CA. But, what if you were to do the following:

Purchase your Saiga with no stock (PG only), and without the gas system installed, so that it's no longer a "semi automatic" shotgun.

Then, you xfer to your trust, fill out the From 1 BS, and create your "sawed off" with front and rear pistol grips. At this point, you no longer possess a "shotgun" but you do possess an "AOW", which means you can modify it to now be semi-auto w/o affecting the AOW status. In the end, you can have a 10" bbl double pistol grip AOW shotgun with a detachable magazine, yes?

BTW, can you CCW an AOW?
Unfortunately, you can't buy a Saiga that was imported with only a PG, or without a stock. You'd have to build your own on a flat. Double pistol grips is not a requirement on a "shotgun based" AOW. It is an AOW per a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell. Aparantly, if it has an 18+" barrel it isn't considered a pistol.

I still think you will run into AW snags. Yes, if built on a flat, it would not be a "shotgun" since it never had a stock, so it would not need to comply with the shotgun AW rules. But, I think it would be considered a pistol in CA as soon as the barrel went under 16", and at that point you have to comply with the pistol AW rules. And that means no detachable mag.
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  #265  
Old 06-14-2008, 9:54 AM
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Originally Posted by blackrazor View Post
I thought that was the whole point of the "AOW", the weapon is not a rifle, a pistol, or shotgun, it's simply "any other weapon".
Remember, AOW is a federal definition, not a state definition. There are not any CA-defined AOWs. However, CA says if you have a Federally approved AOW, then you are exempt from section 12020. There are no other AOW exemptions that I have found for other sections of the code.


Quote:
And yes, I realize that Saiga doesn't normally import shotguns w/o stocks, but I'm sure you could put together a custom order, especially a group buy (calguns group buy, anyone??) and just get them documented as "stockless" builds from the factory.
I don't think that they could import PG'ed builds due to the sporting usage regulations. I dunno if they could even import stripped receivers. I know that an 07/02 went to SHOT this year and talked to every single importer/manufacturer of foreign-made shotguns to see if he could buy stripped receivers or PG-equipped shotguns so that he could make AOWs out of them. He said that he would have bought hundreds if that is what it would have taken, but everybody turned him down.
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  #266  
Old 06-14-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by blackrazor View Post
and hell, according to the 9th circuit court, you can even build it full auto, so long as you're in one of the 9th circuit states that allow full automatic firearms (i.e. NOT CA).
Nope. You're thinking of Stewart, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...art_%282003%29 , but SCOTUS remanded Stewart back to the 9th for review due to the ruling in Raich, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich . The 9th then reconsidered the Stewart ruling and overturned it.
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  #267  
Old 06-15-2008, 8:08 PM
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Hey guys,

Sorry I have read through most of the pages but still am slightly confused. Ok from what I have have read if my friend has a C&R FFL and he buys a C&R M1 carbine, then we do a PPT to myself. OK now that I own it I set up a trust and transfer the rifle to my trust and send the paperwork into ATF for a SBR. When that is approved we take it to a gunsmith and get it shortened and I am good to go? Is that right? Thanks guys.

Trevor
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  #268  
Old 06-15-2008, 8:21 PM
vandal vandal is offline
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IMHO you would have to go fixed-mag on the M1 carbine. Per CA definition, anything with under 16" of barrel is a pistol.

"12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. "

also 12001.(f): Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

So it can be both a SBR/SBS AND a pistol.

If it is a pistol you run afoul of:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:

...

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel. [M1: Yep]
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip. [M1: Yep]

I just don't see any way around it.
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  #269  
Old 06-16-2008, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mhael View Post
Hey guys,

Sorry I have read through most of the pages but still am slightly confused. Ok from what I have have read if my friend has a C&R FFL and he buys a C&R M1 carbine, then we do a PPT to myself. OK now that I own it I set up a trust and transfer the rifle to my trust and send the paperwork into ATF for a SBR. When that is approved we take it to a gunsmith and get it shortened and I am good to go? Is that right? Thanks guys.

Trevor
More importantly, your friend cannot transfer an M1 Carbine to you in this manner. By buying the gun with the intent to transfer it to you, he's acting as a dealer which is a felony. His C&R is for his personal acquisition of firearms, not for acquiring to transfer to friends or for profit.
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  #270  
Old 06-16-2008, 9:54 AM
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OK thanks for the answers. Obviously it is easy enough for me to get my C&R license to purchase it myself. So any better specific examples of C&R rifles that we could SBR in california? I will have to try to read through some more pages to figure out the AOW stuff.

Thanks again I am very interested in this idea.

Trevor
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  #271  
Old 06-16-2008, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhael View Post
OK thanks for the answers. Obviously it is easy enough for me to get my C&R license to purchase it myself.
if you want an M1 carbine, then just order one from the CMP. No need for a C&R license. Yes, a C&R helps fill the marksmanship requirements, but you can fufile that requrement in other ways.

Quote:
So any better specific examples of C&R rifles that we could SBR in california?
Basically non-semi auto stuf, or semi-autos with fixed mags so that they don't run afoul of AW regs.
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  #272  
Old 06-18-2008, 2:44 PM
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Is a Knights masterkey a ca legal AOW?
no grip, no stock

How would it work if you put a knights masterkey on a reg'd AW?





Edit: Just found it, its a short barrel shotgun. Too bad.



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  #273  
Old 06-18-2008, 2:52 PM
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The common thought in the NFA community is that once you hang an AOW masterkey under a rifle, it becomes an SBS due to the rifle stock. I believe that the masterkeys are sold as SBS's for that exact reason.

So, that just means you need to get a C&R 870

Once you have a legal SBS, I don't think there are any legal reasons why you couldn't attach it to a reg'd AW. I'm not even sure if it would be a problem hanging one under an OLL.

But in the end, the common feeling is that the masterkey setup is a waste of time and not worth it for use in a real CQB arena. But, we aren't concerned with that, its all about tacticool, and I think a masterkey definitely qualifies.
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  #274  
Old 06-18-2008, 3:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
The common thought in the NFA community is that
But in the end, the common feeling is that the masterkey setup is a waste of time and not worth it for use in a real CQB arena. But, we aren't concerned with that, its all about tacticool, and I think a masterkey definitely qualifies.

Probably true about a waste of time, but its all (anything you can get in california) a waste of time and not practical anyway.

Its fun though.


So if I find a C&R 870, thats ok, and since the masterkeys are basically 870s anyway, I could probably do something???


**Have you found an NFA dealer in cali willing to do an NFA transfer yet?



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  #275  
Old 06-18-2008, 3:37 PM
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Yup, you should be able to with a C&R 870 SBS. The issue becomes finding a mount for the 870. There are apparently a couple designs out there that go in an out of production.

Just make sure that whatever mount you use does not let the rear of the 870 come in contact with the front of the mag well under recoil. Bad Things can happen if that occurs. Theres also a mount that hangs off the front takedown pin that transfers the SBS recoil into the lower receiver and may cause problems.


As for CA NFA dealers willing to do work with us, haven't found anybody except for M24 up in NorCal. I still need to talk to my local guy but since I'm not ready to spend more money, I've put it off. Don't want to look like one of those looky-loos.

There is one other possibility that I just realized, an FFL doesn't have to be an SOT to transfer an NFA firearm. Any FFL can do the transfer, they just don't get FFL-to-FFL transfers tax free. Now, for an SBS, that adds a second $200 tax that makes it unfeasable, but for an AOW, its just an extra $5 tax stamp. That might be doable and would open up the dealer search to any FFL willing.
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  #276  
Old 06-18-2008, 3:40 PM
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Not to get too far off track... but the above would be a little more functional and slightly more interesting mounted on a pistol based AR AOW...

Not sure if it could be done here in CA... But it would be exceedingly tacticool...
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  #277  
Old 06-18-2008, 3:48 PM
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that exact combo has been mentioned as a way to be able to mount an AOW under an AR. By hanging the AOW under a pistol, there is no shoulder stock to turn the AOW into an SBS.

Now, would the AR need to be an AOW, or would a "regular" AR pistol be enough (fixed mag for CA)? That would take some thought to figure out all the legalities.
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  #278  
Old 06-18-2008, 3:50 PM
Wiggawam Wiggawam is offline
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Still looking for an 870 or M37, I want one of these! Anyone have leads? can't find any on gunbroker.
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  #279  
Old 06-18-2008, 4:18 PM
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Found three M37s on the first page of the search I did.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102656657
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102150774
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102160252

As for 870s, they are harder to locate since there is only 7 years of C&Rs out there. YOu'd need to to look at the pictures/text for serial number or email the seller what serial number it was.



572,000 is the cut-off for 1957 870s.

Ithacas cut off at 704,000 for 1957 M37s.


As a price point, I paid under $200 shipped for my 37, and got a couple 870s for $280 & $320 shipped.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 06-18-2008 at 4:22 PM..
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  #280  
Old 06-19-2008, 11:47 AM
Wiggawam Wiggawam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Found three M37s on the first page of the search I did.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102656657
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102150774
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102160252

As for 870s, they are harder to locate since there is only 7 years of C&Rs out there. YOu'd need to to look at the pictures/text for serial number or email the seller what serial number it was.



572,000 is the cut-off for 1957 870s.

Ithacas cut off at 704,000 for 1957 M37s.


As a price point, I paid under $200 shipped for my 37, and got a couple 870s for $280 & $320 shipped.

Sweet man, my gunbroker-fu is weak. Was searching in the wrong spot. Now I just need to wait for this C&R to slowly get here. Has anyone done a side by side and cleaned up the stock to only a pistol grip? I think that will have to be my next project.
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