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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 05-30-2008, 2:25 PM
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I also think that the single shot exemption is a smart way to go. If we do find local class 3 guys that are willing to transfer stuff like Super Shorties to us on Form 4s, it might be worth it to have Serbu sell some "CA Special" Shorties with blocked mag tubes, or even solid mag tubes that could be traded in later for a regular mag tube.
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  #202  
Old 05-30-2008, 2:38 PM
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Yes I want one.
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  #203  
Old 05-30-2008, 7:58 PM
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After figuring the costs to "make" a Serbu replica out of a C&R, it comes to a bit over a hundred than just buying one. I'd buy a SSS if they worked the CA magic wand on one for me.

Too many irons in the fire or I'd call them. Their site seems to me they are a kind of company to cater to it's few clients.

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  #204  
Old 05-30-2008, 8:16 PM
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If I had the available funds to get a Super SHorty right now, I'd further pursue it with Mark. But right now, I'm working in other directions.

I could definitely see Mark working to make a CA model SSS if there was a market for them, and dealers willing to transfer them. He worked with us getting us BFG receivers before the ban. And then offering it in the DTC with an extra special serial number series, FC-####, For California

Either a single-shot version, or even getting it rostered. That would be comedy if it made it on the roster. Unfortunately, I'd guess the answer would be either be "No" or "Two Weeks"
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  #205  
Old 05-30-2008, 11:02 PM
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Just found this other short option. Seems people like a few features on it better than the Serbu, and it costs $100 less too.

http://www.safetyharborfirearms.com/KEG_12/keg_12.html

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  #206  
Old 05-30-2008, 11:21 PM
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You may want to give SHF a call and see what they would charge to mod an already-Form1'ed 870, if they are willing to do it. A year ago, Serbu said they would do it for $365.

Or maybe Walter would be willing to make a california special.

Just to let you know, the reason they look so similar is that the owner of SHF was a former employee of Serbu.
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  #207  
Old 05-30-2008, 11:25 PM
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I have shortened a few shotgun barrels.
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  #208  
Old 05-30-2008, 11:27 PM
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I have shortened a few shotgun barrels.
Have you shortened them along with the mag tube, and made a new foregrip?
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  #209  
Old 05-30-2008, 11:29 PM
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Have you shortened them down to 6-10", along with the mag tube, and made a new foregrip?
There's a first time for everything...


Give me a call tomorrow evening about that 870.
I lost your PM.
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  #210  
Old 06-09-2008, 9:54 PM
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Sorry to bring this thread back to life.....

My google-fu is weak tonight, can anyone tell me if there are any possible downsides to forming a trust or LLC to do this?

Say tax issues, being able to be sued easier, anything like that?

I would really like both a shorty 10/22 and mossberg 500.
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  #211  
Old 06-09-2008, 10:42 PM
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Sorry to bring this thread back to life.....

My google-fu is weak tonight, can anyone tell me if there are any possible downsides to forming a trust or LLC to do this?

Say tax issues, being able to be sued easier, anything like that?
No harm in bumping this back to life.

AFAIK, no major trust downsides besides having to be sure to keep up with changing trust laws to make sure you keep your trust valid. Tax issues should pass through to the grantor/trustee if you made a profit, but ask your lawyer/accountant for clarification on that.

LLC/Corps adds more paperwork and yearly fees. IIRC, when I looked into it, they something like $750+ a year.

Quote:
I would really like both a shorty 10/22 and mossberg 500.
AFAIK, the only shorty 10/22 option would be to SBR the C&R Ruger 10/22 Canadian Edition (successfully accomplished to meet MI C&R SBR law), no other 10/22s are C&R. As for the Mossberg 500, you could do a AOW build on a PG'ed 500 that came that way from the factory that has NEVER had a shoulder stock installed.
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  #212  
Old 06-09-2008, 10:44 PM
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After the issue of being basically acceptable to ATF, the most serious issue you need to deal with on a firearms trust is appropriate probate handling (aka, what if your heir is prohibited from owning arms, etc.)

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  #213  
Old 06-09-2008, 10:57 PM
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Yup, keeping track of the firearms ownership capabilities of you successor trustess and beneficiaries is a must. I plan on amending my trust as needed to replace any prohibited people.

An alternative would be to include trust language that automatically exclude successor trustees and beneficaries and designate alternates if they become firearms-prohibited.
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  #214  
Old 06-10-2008, 1:40 PM
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Not sure if ATF would approve the form due to the feds not being up on the bullet-button thing, but should I not be able to get an AOW stamp for the fixed-mag Krink pistol I made, and then put a VFG on it?
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  #215  
Old 06-10-2008, 2:07 PM
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I don't see why you couldn't AOW your fixed-mag Krink pistol. It wouldn't be an AW due to the fixed-mag.

As for the ATF approving it, I could see there being some questions asked to either you or CADOJ. Who knows, it may force CADOJ to go "on the record" regarding fixed-mag setups one way or another.
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  #216  
Old 06-10-2008, 2:09 PM
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I guess it will only cost me $200 to find out!

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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I don't see why you couldn't AOW your fixed-mag Krink pistol. It wouldn't be an AW due to the fixed-mag.

As for the ATF approving it, I could see there being some questions asked to either you or CADOJ. Who knows, it may force CADOJ to go "on the record" regarding fixed-mag setups one way or another.

Last edited by vandal; 06-10-2008 at 2:21 PM.. Reason: Corrected $5 transfer tax to $200 making tax
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  #217  
Old 06-10-2008, 2:16 PM
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I guess it will only cost me $5 to find out!
NOPE, $200 to find out. All form 1 apps are $200, even for AOW. Its only for a Form 4 transfer that the tax is $5.

Thats why I haven't really planned on doing one myself.

Now, if you maybe talked nice to M24, you could talk him into accepting your Krink as a repair, Form 2ing into an AOW (no tax due, his yearly $$$ SOT covers it) and then Form 4ing it back to you for $5 + his fees.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 06-10-2008 at 2:21 PM..
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  #218  
Old 06-10-2008, 2:26 PM
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I think it would cost me at least $200 in gas just getting there and back.

My engraver would probably soil his pants engraving this gun... so I am hoping the Dremel Engraving Tool I used to mark my SN etc is cutting .003 deep! How can I measure engraving depth to that precision?
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  #219  
Old 06-10-2008, 2:31 PM
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You could ship it to him and have it shipped back. But I dunno how he'd feel working on a homemade firearm.

As for engraving, .003" is about the thinkness of a human hair or maybe a sheet of paper. Basically, if its deep enough to feel or catch a nail, you're probably ok.
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  #220  
Old 06-10-2008, 9:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
No harm in bumping this back to life.

AFAIK, no major trust downsides besides having to be sure to keep up with changing trust laws to make sure you keep your trust valid. Tax issues should pass through to the grantor/trustee if you made a profit, but ask your lawyer/accountant for clarification on that.

LLC/Corps adds more paperwork and yearly fees. IIRC, when I looked into it, they something like $750+ a year.


AFAIK, the only shorty 10/22 option would be to SBR the C&R Ruger 10/22 Canadian Edition (successfully accomplished to meet MI C&R SBR law), no other 10/22s are C&R. As for the Mossberg 500, you could do a AOW build on a PG'ed 500 that came that way from the factory that has NEVER had a shoulder stock installed.
Thanks for your input. I'm not sure how the trust things works. I fill out some forms and send them to whom? How much in assets must I put in the trust? I guess I'm not sure where to start on this.
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  #221  
Old 06-10-2008, 11:43 PM
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Thanks for your input. I'm not sure how the trust things works. I fill out some forms and send them to whom? How much in assets must I put in the trust? I guess I'm not sure where to start on this.

I'd take the time and fully read this thread, http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=199942 . Yes, there is some mis-information in there, but for the most part is very informative.

But basically, you creat the trust using an attorney or a program like Quicken Willmaker. Once created, you sign it and have the sig notarized. Thats it, no state registration of the trust needed.

As for assets, my trust was started with a single $1 bill.
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  #222  
Old 06-11-2008, 6:13 AM
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OK, that sounds good. So when you do that, that it? I just keep the paper work and send it to the ATF with the proper forms? Seems to easy to be true....
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  #223  
Old 06-11-2008, 3:23 PM
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OK, that sounds good. So when you do that, that it? I just keep the paper work and send it to the ATF with the proper forms? Seems to easy to be true....
Yup, just keep your trust paperwork in a secure location and make copies to send to ATF with your forms.

"Seems to easy to be true.... " Thats what everyone thought 2 years ago when the trust angle opened up. It had only been on the books for 70+ years and overlooked by most people. It got brought to the forefront just recently, and has exploded in popularity. Tons of people who wanted NFA stuff, but couldn't get a sign-off, and didn't want the paperwork hassles and costs of a LLC/Corp jumped on it.
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  #224  
Old 06-11-2008, 4:51 PM
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This is not a CA approved Form 1!!!!.
Just a picture of an Form 1 approved in another state.
Pic was posted due to the reason stated.



How this for a reason?

HA HA. And it was approved.


not mine.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 06-12-2008 at 9:23 PM.. Reason: edited to clarify not a CA Form 1.
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  #225  
Old 06-11-2008, 5:13 PM
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How this for a reason?

HA HA. And it was approved.


not mine.
LOL. I love the reason for section i.

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  #226  
Old 06-11-2008, 5:36 PM
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That is friggin' hilarious!
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Old 06-11-2008, 6:28 PM
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What does ATF know?? "Hmm, yep... zombies. Approved!"
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  #228  
Old 06-12-2008, 12:24 AM
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CA charges $800/yr for an LLC or Corp. Trust is going to be much cheaper

Re: Zombies. Awesome. Some of the best of calguns.
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  #229  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:15 AM
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Just to clarify. That pic of the Zombie Form 1 is not for CA. non-C&R SBRs are not legal in CA without the CADOJ permit.

I posted it because I thought the reason was funny, not to show a CA-approved Form 1. My apologies for not making that clear.
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  #230  
Old 06-12-2008, 2:38 PM
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So I think I need a new birthday present for myself, anyone have a line on a C&R 870 or M37?
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  #231  
Old 06-12-2008, 3:11 PM
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You got your C&R FFL? If so, jump over to gunbroker.com and search the auctions, or post a wanted in the forums there.
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  #232  
Old 06-12-2008, 3:48 PM
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You got your C&R FFL? If so, jump over to gunbroker.com and search the auctions, or post a wanted in the forums there.
Just mailed off the paperwork so the wait is on...
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  #233  
Old 06-12-2008, 4:43 PM
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I'm sure I've read the answer to this question many times before, but I think I forgot the answer. I know CA law exempts C&R AOW's, but wouldn't doing a Form 1 on a C&R remove it from C&R status?
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  #234  
Old 06-12-2008, 5:52 PM
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OK I have to admit I havent read this whole thread but maybe we could get a 5 min. brief on this...I see a approved Form 1 (which I have in NV for a SBR) but Im wondering how the LEO sign off was done and a M15 doesn't sound like C&R to me so how is it done?

Can you take a GSG-5 22lr MP% clone and get the barrel cut? I know in this state the total cost was around $240...2 for the stamp, the receiver has to be ingraved and the fingerprints cost a few bucks...plus the cost of cutting a barrel.

Not haten' I just want to know if the whole "zombie" thing is a photoshop or not...BTW the stamps I have all look the same and have the serial number on them.
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  #235  
Old 06-12-2008, 6:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Just to clarify. That pic of the Zombie Form 1 is not for CA. non-C&R SBRs are not legal in CA without the CADOJ permit.

I posted it because I thought the reason was funny, not to show a CA-approved Form 1. My apologies for not making that clear.
So, I'm assuming someone at ATF&E knows something about an upcoming Zombie invasion.
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Old 06-12-2008, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilit View Post
I'm sure I've read the answer to this question many times before, but I think I forgot the answer. I know CA law exempts C&R AOW's, but wouldn't doing a Form 1 on a C&R remove it from C&R status?
Actually CA law exempts ALL AOWs from 12020 prohibitions, except for pen guns. No need to be C&R. An AOW is not exempt from the AW rules, so you have to be aware of that.

C&R is only required for SBS/SBR and ATF has approved multiple Form 1 apps for SBS/SBR made on C&R firearms for both CA and MI residents.





Quote:
Originally Posted by 6172crew View Post
OK I have to admit I havent read this whole thread but maybe we could get a 5 min. brief on this...I see a approved Form 1 (which I have in NV for a SBR) but Im wondering how the LEO sign off was done and a M15 doesn't sound like C&R to me so how is it done?
This was not done in CA. That was my mistake in posting a pic of a cool Form 1 without explicitly stating that it was not a CA Form 1. There was no LEO sign off needed since it was done on a trust.

Quote:
Can you take a GSG-5 22lr MP% clone and get the barrel cut? I know in this state the total cost was around $240...2 for the stamp, the receiver has to be ingraved and the fingerprints cost a few bucks...plus the cost of cutting a barrel.
Nope, not in CA since it isn't C&R.

Quote:
Not haten' I just want to know if the whole "zombie" thing is a photoshop or not...BTW the stamps I have all look the same and have the serial number on them.
AFAIK, that is a real approved Form 1 with the zombie info. The only editing done was to remove the personal info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=694399
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  #237  
Old 06-13-2008, 5:12 AM
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Ok, let me run this by you:

An HK51K AOW ok to do?

One of the ORF G3 flats homebuilt into a pistol, initially single shot, fired/demo'd single shot, then made semi auto with fixed 10 rnd mag.
When the form 1 comes back, put on the MP5K fore grip.
OR
Do I need to wait for the form 1 before building it at all, and build it from the ground up as an AOW?

Is that all kosher?
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Last edited by ptoguy2002; 06-13-2008 at 5:14 AM..
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  #238  
Old 06-13-2008, 7:33 AM
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Last night I finished my paperwork to AOW my home-built Krink pistol. Planning to send it off today. The ATF paperwork says they won't approve anything that would violate local or state laws, so I am including a letter with an explanation and a picture of the magazine catch shroud. I think that needs to be called out, because without that an AOW configuration (VFG) would run afoul of state law.
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Old 06-13-2008, 8:10 AM
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I don't understand how a centerfire gun built from the ground up as an AOW would fall under the AW ban?
The features section refers to any "rifle" and any "pistol." If its an AOW, its neither a rifle nor a pistol.
Or am I missing something.

BTW, an HK51K AOW with the .22 conversion kit would be really cool too.
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Old 06-13-2008, 8:22 AM
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By my reading, anything with <16" of barrel length is defined as pistol for CA law purposes.

12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
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