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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post

Do you have any basis for claiming that, for example, if a DA put on proof of a defendants age at the time of the ban, say, 10, and the fact that that mags in question all had bodies date marked after the ban, that, magically, the DA could not obtain a conviction?

You think a jury would not want a reasonable explanation?

Your turn.
The explaination for the date on the body of the mag would be that the body was bought as a replacement part. Just the body was bought, not the mag.

Not to mention that one GIGANTIC loophole would be that assembly of high cap mags is not illegal, manufacturing is. This of course is a whole different can of worms that we probably shouldn't open, but what the hell. So if importing/selling/buying parts for a mag is not illegal and you didn't manufacture the parts for the mag, what did you do illegal?
  #42  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopi View Post
Congrats on the award. I guess.

Reasonable doubt.

-Defendant was 10 when his Father purchased high-caps legally for his son. They both shot the Father's AR and wore out some magazines (3 of which happened to be owned by the defendant), and a few of these needed to have dented bodies replaced. Fast forward to 2008 and defendant has since replaced some mag bodies with functional replacements...the high caps are still legal, the high caps are legally possessed, and the high caps have not been involved in any prohibited activity.

Reasonable doubt.
Nice dig, you started by slinging simplistic "fail" claims, as if I need a civics lesson.

AND, TO THE POINT, HOW DOES THE JURY KNOW ABOUT YOUR "REASONABLE DOUBT" ABOVE UNLESS THE CITIZEN DEIGNS TO PUT FORTH SUCH EVIDENCE?

So, in other words, we agree that, despite the need for the DA to prove its case, there may be a need for a defendant to put on evidence.

So, I guess the "Fail" was not accurate, was it?
  #43  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:25 PM
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What type of law do you practice?
General business litigation right now, but I have done broad based insurance defense, medical malpractice defense, premises liability, pharmacy liability, employment, etc.

Never criminal law, though.
  #44  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Nice dig, you started by slinging simplistic "fail" claims, as if I need a civics lesson.

AND, TO THE POINT, HOW DOES THE JURY KNOW ABOUT YOUR "REASONABLE DOUBT" ABOVE UNLESS THE CITIZEN DEIGNS TO PUT FORTH SUCH EVIDENCE?

So, in other words, we agree that, despite the need for the DA to prove its case, there may be a need for a defendant to put on evidence.

So, I guess the "Fail" was not accurate, was it?
No need to get snippy, especially since he didn't say the defendant would need to advance that evidence, just that that particular hypothetical, among many others, is a reasonable explanation for why the dates are after 2000. The defendant would not need to put up proof of replacing the bodies, just offer up the fact that doing so is legal. That can be done in opening or closing statements, or via an expert OR, the best, way, with a jury instruction informing the jurors that there are a number of legal, highly plausible ways the mag bodies could be changed. It would not be a good idea for an attorney to allow the client to testify, even if the client had legally changed the magazine bodies.

So, NO, the defendant doesn't necessarily have to advance evidence that he replaced the mag bodies.

P.S. I do criminal law.
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Last edited by ohsmily; 05-20-2008 at 3:29 PM..
  #45  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Nice dig, you started by slinging simplistic "fail" claims, as if I need a civics lesson.
This thread implies your need for a civics lesson, not my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
AND, TO THE POINT, HOW DOES THE JURY KNOW ABOUT YOUR "REASONABLE DOUBT" ABOVE UNLESS THE CITIZEN DEIGNS TO PUT FORTH SUCH EVIDENCE?
If a DA decides to prosecute in the absence of evidence of criminal behavior, well, the jury would certainly be educated on this by any half-wit attorney. Reasonable doubt still exists absent any evidence to the contrary.
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
So, in other words, we agree that, despite the need for the DA to prove its case, there may be a need for a defendant to put on evidence.
No. No we don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
So, I guess the "Fail" was not accurate, was it?
Nope. Stickin' with it.
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Soon it will be clearly immoral to routinely violate the bill of rights like the California courts so enjoy today.

-Gene
  #46  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN View Post
The explaination for the date on the body of the mag would be that the body was bought as a replacement part. Just the body was bought, not the mag.

Not to mention that one GIGANTIC loophole would be that assembly of high cap mags is not illegal, manufacturing is. This of course is a whole different can of worms that we probably shouldn't open, but what the hell. So if importing/selling/buying parts for a mag is not illegal and you didn't manufacture the parts for the mag, what did you do illegal?
You guys are misunderstanding my point. I KNOW there are reasonble explanations, my point is that you'd better be ready to show these circumstances, not simply fold your arms and claim that the DA hasn't proved its case.

Your circumstances would constitute enough evidence to avoid conviction, if believed, my point is YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET THAT INFO TO A JURY, don't expect the DA to put on evidence supporting your case.
  #47  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:30 PM
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No need to get snippy
ohsmily, is that you?
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Soon it will be clearly immoral to routinely violate the bill of rights like the California courts so enjoy today.

-Gene
  #48  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
You guys are misunderstanding my point. I KNOW there are reasonble explanations, my point is that you'd better be ready to show these circumstances, not simply fold your arms and claim that the DA hasn't proved its case.

Your circumstances would constitute enough evidence to avoid conviction, if believed, my point is YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET THAT INFO TO A JURY, don't expect the DA to put on evidence supporting your case.
SEE POST #44 - the defendant would NOT have to advance evidence that he replaced the mag bodies, just that doing so is a perfectly plausible and legal way to have post dated magazines. You could have a firearms expert testify how easy it is to change the mag body and how readily available they are, and/or just get a jury instruction that indicates they have to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant illegally imported or manufactured the magazine after 12-31-1999....a pretty tall order.
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  #49  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:33 PM
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ohsmily, is that you?
PISS OFF!
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  #50  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ohsmily View Post
PISS OFF!
Ha, I thought you were slippin'......well played!
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Soon it will be clearly immoral to routinely violate the bill of rights like the California courts so enjoy today.

-Gene
  #51  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:39 PM
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This thread implies your need for a civics lesson, not my post.

If a DA decides to prosecute in the absence of evidence of criminal behavior, well, the jury would certainly be educated on this by any half-wit attorney. Reasonable doubt still exists absent any evidence to the contrary.

No. No we don't.



Nope. Stickin' with it.

Touche. But not really. Where have I demonstrated a lack of grasp of civics?

I don't even understand your position.

First you fire off that harbinger of internet genius, the "fail" bomb. This apparently premised on the statement that immediately follows, specifically, a superficial statement of who bears the burden of proof at a criminal trial, and the claim that a citizen charged with a crime need not prove anything, directly implying that I do not understand the criminal justice system in place.

Now, in the quoted post, while doggedly denying that you are wrong, you post that a “half wit” lawyer at a trial would “certainly” inform the jury of circumstances indicating the presence of reasonable doubt. Which is and always has been my point.

So which is it?

Last edited by Citadelgrad87; 05-20-2008 at 3:49 PM..
  #52  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ohsmily View Post
No need to get snippy, especially since he didn't say the defendant would need to advance that evidence, just that that particular hypothetical, among many others, is a reasonable explanation for why the dates are after 2000. The defendant would not need to put up proof of replacing the bodies, just offer up the fact that doing so is legal. That can be done in opening or closing statements, or via an expert OR, the best, way, with a jury instruction informing the jurors that there are a number of legal, highly plausible ways the mag bodies could be changed. It would not be a good idea for an attorney to allow the client to testify, even if the client had legally changed the magazine bodies.

So, NO, the defendant doesn't necessarily have to advance evidence that he replaced the mag bodies.

P.S. I do criminal law.
Sorry, I'm generally snippy by nature. Ask the frog, well, he drowned. (it's complicated)

Where do you practice? I'm in OC.

Agreed, no criminal defendant client should testify, but that rich uncle, the one who gave him the mags, if he existed, you'd use him, right? Or the buddy who was with him when he found the mags? Or the dated photos of the client shooting the weapon taking the pags in question before the ban? Stuff like that is golder, I would guess.

And you wouldn't hide your position in pretrial negotiations with the DA, right?

That's all I'm saying, not that you need to put on direct evidence establising reasonable doubt, not that I don't get the BOP, but that ANY evidence of reasonable doubt is going to come from the table closest to the jury. It's not simply a matter of shrugging and saying "He didn't prove anything".
  #53  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Sorry, I'm generally snippy by nature. Ask the frog, well, he drowned. (it's complicated)
me too; some might say I am notorious for it

Where do you practice? I'm in OC.

Agreed, no criminal defendant client should testify, but that rich uncle, the one who gave him the mags, if he existed, you'd use him, right? Or the buddy who was with him when he found the mags? Or the dated photos of the client shooting the weapon taking the pags in question before the ban? Stuff like that is golder, I would guess.

And you wouldn't hide your position in pretrial negotiations with the DA, right?

That's all I'm saying, not that you need to put on direct evidence establising reasonable doubt, not that I don't get the BOP, but that ANY evidence of reasonable doubt is going to come from the table closest to the jury. It's not simply a matter of shrugging and saying "He didn't prove anything".
Well, actually, at the conclusion of the prosecution's case, the defense will often make a motion for a finding as a matter of law that the defendant is not guilty. Sort of a like a demurrer and motion for summary judgment all rolled into one. It is not often successful; however, in the hypotheticals we have been discussing, it would not only be worthwhile to do, it would have a high chance of success before a reasonable judge who has been paying attention.

I practice in Sacramento and the surrounding counties.
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  #54  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:54 PM
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And if the motion fails, would you use the dated photos of the kid shooting the AR before the ban? The rich uncle who gave him the box of mags as a present?

You'd put on that evidence if you had it, wouldn't you?
  #55  
Old 05-20-2008, 3:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Touche. But not really. Where have I demonstrated a lack of grasp of civics?

I don't even understand your position.

First you fire off that harbinger of internet genius, the "fail" bomb. This apparently premised on the statement that immediately follows, specifically, a superficial statement of who bears the burden of proof at a criminal trial, and the claim that a citizen charged with a crime need not prove anything, directly implying that I do not understand the criminal justice system in place.

Now, in the quoted post, while doggedly denying that you are wrong, you post that a “half wit” lawyer at a trial would “certainly” inform the jury of circumstances indicating the presence of reasonable doubt. Which is and always has been my point.

So which is it?
You earned the 'fail' when you posted the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87
If one is charged with violating the ban, and one plans on simply folding one's arms and stating that there is no burden on a defendant, expect to do some time. If you have proof that exonerates you, why wouldn't you reveal it?
1. Despite multiple posts to the contrary, you still posted that excerpt which is clearly misinformed.
2. You are warning folks that they will 'do some time' because they have engaged in legal activity. FUD
3. You refuse to acknowledge that 99.99% of DAs recognize the need for criminal activity or evidence thereof in order to prosecute a case.

I have a serious allergic reaction to FUD.....sorry.
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Soon it will be clearly immoral to routinely violate the bill of rights like the California courts so enjoy today.

-Gene
  #56  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
And if the motion fails, would you use the dated photos of the kid shooting the AR before the ban? The rich uncle who gave him the box of mags as a present?

You'd put on that evidence if you had it, wouldn't you?
Perhaps. But the absence of it doesn't imply guilt. If a DA presented the case you are hypothetically painting, a jury instruction would probably be all that is required to be found not guilty or have the jury hung. Of course, an attorney would do everything they could to demonstrate innocence, but it should not be required in the hypothetical case you are painting. In fact, it probably wouldn't be filed in most cases.

Fact: I have a case where my client did something involving shooting a handgun in the city (no, not at anyone). Fact, he bought this gun out of state somewhat recently and didn't go through an FFL. Fact, he also had high caps with it. Fact, he admitted all of this. Fact, the DA didn't even file on the several charges of illegally importing the firearm and high cap magazines. The cops wrote it up, but the DA didn't file even though it is a slam dunk. While my case is but one anecdote, it seems that not much attention is paid to the high cap magazine laws except by DOJ BOF.
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  #57  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:10 PM
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How would anyone know (pre 2000) to keep the receipts for something totally benign and legal, like magazines?
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  #58  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:16 PM
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I Noticed some are dated in 94 but have law/military only on them
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  #59  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:18 PM
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Default Hi Cap Mags.

From 1994 to 2004, there were no new hi caps magazines being sold anywhere in the US legally.

I would imagine that the DA's. would probably give those magazines a free pass depending on the plantiff.

Now if the DA could show that you couldn't have possessed those magazines in Cal prior to Dec 31, 1999, that may be a different story.

Let's say for instance you were a minor or that you moved into the state since, you may have problems.

Having Hi Cap mags for guns you didn't own may present some issues also.

Where I see the efforts at prosecution will be people who come into the state and innocently register semi auto pistols that they purchased out of state.

I could see the DOJ receive a registration, then contact the local sheriff about someone who just registered a out of state handgun.

All it would take is a call from the sheriff requesting the person come down for a "weapons inspection", person comes down voluntarily with pistol and standard capacity mags and bingo, felony possession of hi cap magazine.

Most people wouldn't think to leave the magazines at home, they would probably think that transporting unloaded in a locked container would be fine.

Nicki
  #60  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 1lostinspace View Post
I Noticed some are dated in 94 but have law/military only on them
From 1994 to 2004, there was a federal ban on the manufacture and importation of high capacity magazines for civilian sales. So, you have a magazine body that was made in 1994 for law enforcement, after the ban went into effect. The federal AW ban 'sunsetted" in 2004; it is perfectly fine to have magazines that have bodies or other parts marked "Law Enforcement Only."
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  #61  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopi View Post
You earned the 'fail' when you posted the following:



1. Despite multiple posts to the contrary, you still posted that excerpt which is clearly misinformed.
2. You are warning folks that they will 'do some time' because they have engaged in legal activity. FUD
3. You refuse to acknowledge that 99.99% of DAs recognize the need for criminal activity or evidence thereof in order to prosecute a case.

I have a serious allergic reaction to FUD.....sorry.
You're slinging it now.

I said "IF YOU ARE CHARGED, and do nothing when you have exonerating evidence"

No where have I predicted that anyone will be arrested or carged with a violation, all of my posts have dealt with the hypo that the person IS CHARGED.

If you are charged, the DA thinks they have a case. They are concerned with efficiently doing their jobs, and they track conviction statitistics.

"IF YOU ARE CHARGED," they think they can get a conviction. You better take that seriously.

I NEVER said that anyone will "do time if engaged in legal activity", that's your take/misinterpretation of the part you quoted. In my hypo, you are already charged. They don't do that on a whim. They think they have enough for a conviction. My point is to take it seriously.

Sell FUD elsewhere, if you are charged with a violation of the statute, the guy who gets paid to win such cases has done the math and thinks he can win. That may have nothing to do with whether you broke the law.

I am not misinformed.
  #62  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nicki View Post
From 1994 to 2004, there were no new hi caps magazines being sold anywhere in the US legally.

I would imagine that the DA's. would probably give those magazines a free pass depending on the plantiff.

Now if the DA could show that you couldn't have possessed those magazines in Cal prior to Dec 31, 1999, that may be a different story.

Let's say for instance you were a minor or that you moved into the state since, you may have problems.

Having Hi Cap mags for guns you didn't own may present some issues also.


You have the same mental block that others seem to have. Many people bought magazines to guns they didn't own before the ban. It is not probative one way or another.


Where I see the efforts at prosecution will be people who come into the state and innocently register semi auto pistols that they purchased out of state.

I could see the DOJ receive a registration, then contact the local sheriff about someone who just registered a out of state handgun.

All it would take is a call from the sheriff requesting the person come down for a "weapons inspection", person comes down voluntarily with pistol and standard capacity mags and bingo, felony possession of hi cap magazine.
This is not an assured conviction either. If the person had bought the magazines in CA prior to 2000, say at a gun show or while they were visiting CA before 1/1/2000, then the magazines would be completely legal. You and others don't get that prosecution is highly unlikely unless you ADMIT that you illegally imported them or are caught red-handed buying them out of state and they follow you across the CA border and then bust you (It has happened before)

Most people wouldn't think to leave the magazines at home, they would probably think that transporting unloaded in a locked container would be fine.
Huh?
Nicki

Also, it isn't necessarily a felony. It can be a felony or misdemeanor; it is discretionary. If someone doesn't have a prior record and that is the only offense they are being charged with, not only would the DA probably make it a misdemeanor right off the bat, they would probably resolve the case with some sort of diversion.
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  #63  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:26 PM
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I guess the lesson to be learned here is that it you have these hi cap mags, keep a low profile with them, don't brag about having them and by all means don't flash them at the local gun range. The local PD or DOJ is not going to come to your house if they don't know about them. Common sense is the word of the day.
  #64  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BroncoBob View Post
I guess the lesson to be learned here is that it you have these hi cap mags, keep a low profile with them, don't brag about having them and by all means don't flash them at the local gun range. The local PD or DOJ is not going to come to your house if they don't know about them. Common sense is the word of the day.
I have boxfuls of hicaps I bought in 98/99. I bought hicap mags for guns I didn't (or still don't) even own.

I have no problems taking them to the range and/or legally transporting them with any of my firearms, including my registered assault weapons.

You don't have to hide.
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  #65  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:42 PM
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I have boxfuls of hicaps I bought in 98/99. I bought hicap mags for guns I didn't (or still don't) even own.

I have no problems taking them to the range and/or legally transporting them with any of my firearms, including my registered assault weapons.

You don't have to hide.
Agreed. When I started shooting, there was no ban anywhere on the horizon. I have dozens + which I started buying in the 1980s.

I'm not telling people to hide their posessions.

My point was confined to the hypothetical of someone who is already charged with a violation.
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Old 05-20-2008, 4:56 PM
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Bill: I stand corrected. Just trying to lay down some common sense, and cool down the debate. But you are much more informed and educated on this subject then me.
  #67  
Old 05-20-2008, 5:03 PM
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This thread's already 7 pages long?! WTF??
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  #68  
Old 05-20-2008, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LAK Supply View Post
This thread's already 7 pages long?! WTF??
No kidding, and how many of these threads are started every month?
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  #69  
Old 05-20-2008, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nicki View Post
Having Hi Cap mags for guns you didn't own may present some issues also.
Nicki
What issues is that? Were you around when the ban went down? Hoards of people went out and bought up "hi cap" magazines for weapons they didn't have yet. There are many on this forum including myself who were a part of that back then.

Again posession is not illegal. This has been well covered here redundantly for years now.
  #70  
Old 05-20-2008, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by odysseus View Post
...Hoards of people went out and bought up "hi cap" magazines for weapons they didn't have yet. ....
To emphasis this point even more. In 1993 and pre Sept 1994 I also bought tons of different mags for guns I didn't have but one never knew what the future would bring. I even bought a dozen PPSH41 drums, not because I ever thought of having a PPSH41 (kits didn't even exist then). No, I bought them since CS Metal Werks was converting them into 71rnd drums for the MP5/HK94/SP89 guns. After '94 they were selling for $450-$500 each all because there didn't exist a Beta C-Mag at that time (pre 94) for the MP5. So now fast forward to 2008 and what do we have available to us? We have PPSH41s available to us in CA, and because of what happened 14 yrs ago, I now have legal drums in CA for the "new" semi-auto PPSH41 rifles being built.

So yes, having hi-cap mags for guns one didn't own or even thought of owning is more that possible. Anyone remember the Grendel P-30? I have mags for it but never bought it nor will.
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Last edited by Hunter; 05-20-2008 at 5:24 PM..
  #71  
Old 05-20-2008, 5:37 PM
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You guys are misunderstanding my point. I KNOW there are reasonble explanations, my point is that you'd better be ready to show these circumstances, not simply fold your arms and claim that the DA hasn't proved its case.

Your circumstances would constitute enough evidence to avoid conviction, if believed, my point is YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET THAT INFO TO A JURY, don't expect the DA to put on evidence supporting your case.
I really shouldn't jump in here, but Citadel, I think I see where the miscommunication is coming from. The pronoun "you".

The defendant doesn't need to state anything, but his attorney had better do a lot more than fold his arms (i.e. create some reasonable doubt).
  #72  
Old 05-20-2008, 5:52 PM
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The defendant doesn't need to state anything,

Blackbox PARTIALLY is correct.... YOU DON'T NEED TO PROVE ANYTHING. IT'S UP TO THE DA TO PROVE THAT YOU DID SOMETHING ILLEGAL. POSSESSION IS NOT ILLEGAL, SO THEY NEED TO PROVE THAT YOU OBTAINED THEM ILLEGALLY. IT'S AN UNENFORCEABLE LAW.


Can we close this thread now?
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http://laksupply.com/magazines-mag-kits

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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=99311

Last edited by LAK Supply; 05-20-2008 at 6:15 PM.. Reason: Citadel had a point
  #73  
Old 05-20-2008, 5:54 PM
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Uh, read it again, that's not what he said.
  #74  
Old 05-20-2008, 6:00 PM
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i still buy mags now for firearms i dont have
im not doing anything illegal... but, i still fear legal fees
  #75  
Old 05-20-2008, 6:21 PM
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"We have nothing to fear, but legal fees . . . "
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  #76  
Old 05-20-2008, 6:56 PM
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There is no such thing as a high cap mag in my eyes. Only normal mags and CA neutered!!!!
  #77  
Old 05-20-2008, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by thedrickel View Post
"We have nothing to fear, but legal fees . . . "
im going to quote that in my sig drick
  #78  
Old 05-20-2008, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicki View Post
From 1994 to 2004, there were no new hi caps magazines being sold anywhere in the US legally.

Nicki
Not true, the ban was on manufacturing and importation of high capacity magazines- not sales; you could buy them in California up till 12/31/99 and you could buy them if you lived in a free states during the entire term of the Federal AW ban.
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