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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-06-2013, 10:11 PM
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Default Unions Run California? If That is True, Then Gun Owners Could Own Politicians.

Everyone loves to point out the fact of how the unions run California. There are only 2,489,000 union members in this state of 38,041,430. There are 7,988,700 gun owners in this state. All of you gun owners who won't join a gun rights organization need to think critically about those numbers.

http://www.bls.gov/ro9/unionca.htm
http://usliberals.about.com/od/Elect...Population.htm
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000lk.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?

Last edited by anthonyca; 09-07-2013 at 8:00 AM..
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2013, 10:23 PM
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I wouldn't say they run it, but they certainly have a big influence on a variety of issues; and remember a lot of government employees are members of unions.

Gun owners on the other hand are a big social pariah. School teachers, firefighters, police, hospital workers, construction workers, etc are not.
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:29 PM
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1. Many gun owners in this state don't care.
2. Many gun owners in this state aren't motivated enough to do something about something.
3. Many gun owners in this state agree with the draconian laws.
4. Many gun owners in this state would rather go crazy into debt buying what they want so they can either sell at a premium later, or ***** about how organizations they don't donate to are failing them.
5. Many gun owners are lazy.

Rinse. Repeat.
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by POLICESTATE View Post
I wouldn't say they run it, but they certainly have a big influence on a variety of issues; and remember a lot of government employees are members of unions.

Gun owners on the other hand are a big social pariah. School teachers, firefighters, police, hospital workers, construction workers, etc are not.
That is the fault of most gun owners who roll over and take it.

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Originally Posted by monk View Post
1. Many gun owners in this state don't care.
2. Many gun owners in this state aren't motivated enough to do something about something.
3. Many gun owners in this state agree with the draconian laws.
4. Many gun owners in this state would rather go crazy into debt buying what they want so they can either sell at a premium later, or ***** about how organizations they don't donate to are failing them.
5. Many gun owners are lazy.

Rinse. Repeat.
Exactly. Those people are our own worst enemy.
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2013, 11:00 PM
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cooperations run this country.
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2013, 11:02 PM
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You're failing to see that unions are practically an arm of the Democrat party. Totally different dynamic. That might not be a good analogy.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:09 PM
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Great- another anti union thread to pump up the band wagon and spread more misinformation.

Lets get it all out now- the pension sky is failing, unfunded liabilities (operate just like your home mortgage) and the taxpayers will be forced to save the state some day. Its never happened in the history of the state but by damn, some bitter folks here are demanding it.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:20 PM
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My point is that we out number every group that people here love ***** and moan about. If people spent a quarter of the energy they spend on "poor me" and "(insert group here) runs this country" on actually doing something, we would have no problems.
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:23 PM
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How about that SEUI union and their communist connections? Yeah there we go:



Yeah! Workers of the world unite!

I know not all unions have Marxist associations, but that SEUI is certainly a union a free country could do without.
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2013, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by POLICESTATE View Post
How about that SEUI union and their communist connections? Yeah there we go:



Yeah! Workers of the world unite!

I know not all unions have Marxist associations, but that SEUI is certainly a union a free country could do without.
You are falling into the trap of the antis and people who with who you don't agree. The antis are truly smarter than the average gun owner who is more concerned with being "right" than winning.

I simply pointed out how the groups who almost every gun owner says loves to run things do it and people spend all their energy attacking the message of their enemy instead of examining how they are handing their head to them. Just because you study and know your enemy does not mean you agree with their message. In fact, that is a requirement to beating them.

We need to be better organized, that is the bottom line. Any gun owner who does not pull in this fight is against us and we need to let them know that.

What does every group who people say run things have in common? They are organized. They kill dissension from with in. They force people in their groups to work with them. They are not "individuals". When I was in the Army I had a problem with the group think and rules because at heart I am an individual but I understand how humans work. We need to organize or band together or we loose to those who do.

So gun owners who don't pull your weight, you are either with us or against us. Your either a fighter or a freeloader who rolls over and takes it.

I always ask the gun owners who complain the most the same question. What do you do about it? They almost always say nothing. Those groups who most people here hate don't take that answer from their peers. It's not just unions. I used them as one example because I knew people here would fall right into my trap.
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?

Last edited by anthonyca; 09-06-2013 at 11:49 PM..
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Old 09-07-2013, 5:35 AM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
Everyone loves to point out the fact of how the unions run California. There are only 2,489,000 union members in this state of 38,041,430. There are 7,988,700 gun owners in this state. All of you gun owners who won't join a gun rights organization need to think critically about those numbers.

http://www.bls.gov/ro9/unionca.htm
http://usliberals.about.com/od/Elect...Population.htm
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000lk.html
its been said before that if we put a fraction of what we spend during all the panic buying... on politics... we wouldn't be be having political panics / loosing...
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Old 09-07-2013, 5:46 AM
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its been said before that if we put a fraction of what we spend during all the panic buying... on politics... we wouldn't be be having political panics / loosing...
Exactly. Union power is derived from money. It's already been shown that the NRA isn't even in the top 10 for political spending at the national level. They don't have the luxury of a % of pay coming in every week to spend.

If all of CA's gun owners contributed $500/year (and the funds were well managed) the legislators might take a different view.
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Old 09-07-2013, 6:43 AM
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Labor unions support whoever furthers there agenda to protect and enhance the pay etc of their members. Problem is the pro 2A politicians tend to be anti union and are constantly attacking their interests. If you could find pro 2A politician who supported the unions efforts to their members they would get union support.
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Old 09-07-2013, 7:18 AM
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Labor unions support whoever furthers there agenda to protect and enhance the pay etc of their members. Problem is the pro 2A politicians tend to be anti union and are constantly attacking their interests. If you could find pro 2A politician who supported the unions efforts to their members they would get union support.
That is true but I didn't start this to be union anti union thread. I started it to show that a tiny portion of the population wields a lot of power by sticking together and to the plan.

Its not just unions. Gays, BAR associations, Realtor associations, women's groups, bankers, contractor's associations, accounting groups, defense contractors, elder groups and on and on. None of those groups have even a couple million members but they do a much better job of sticking together and staying on target. We have over 90 million gun owners. And only 6 million are members of the largest group that the politicians listen to. There is NO excuse for that state.

Now for the people who cry that there are not enough gun owners in California to make a difference, see post #1.
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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Old 09-07-2013, 7:26 AM
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Of those 2,489,000 union members, only about 3% actually go to meetings, call politicians, etc. Actually, most of the members would not even join if they could make the same money and their employer had an open shop.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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Old 09-07-2013, 7:31 AM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
That is true but I didn't start this to be union anti union thread. I started it to show that a tiny portion of the population wields a lot of power by sticking together and to the plan.
Unions do not necessarily represent the views of many of their members. I know mine doesn't. I use my union's "voting guide" as an indication of how NOT to vote.
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Old 09-07-2013, 7:49 AM
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Let's start a new group and a new PAC (Political Action Committee) Call it one of these:

California Association of Firearms Owners- PAC
Association of California Firearms Owners – PAC
Firearms Owners of California United -PAC.

Must build a war chest to be effective. $200-$300 per year.

Must have competent leadership.

I'm an ex-Californian and I'll donate.
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Old 09-07-2013, 7:50 AM
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Unions do not necessarily represent the views of many of their members. I know mine doesn't. I use my union's "voting guide" as an indication of how NOT to vote.
You are making my point. This is not about unions or any one group, it's about tactics and examining how people win politically. I just used unions because most calguns members despise them. The point is that gun owners out number any special interest group yet we get stomped by our enemies.

Look at the tactics, not the group. Who here trains in martial arts or likes sports? A looser will loose a match or game and sit in his room, feel sorry for himself and be mad at the winner. A winner with lose a match, then examine why he lost while being mad at himself, and then come back with a new tactic and go at it again.

We sit here and talk about the Brady bunch and a couple lawyers ( LCAV or who ever they are this week) beating our *** when they don't even have any grassroots at all. That is looser thinking and I am not a looser.

We need all gun manufacturers to have a rebate program. Either you show your membership to a pro gun group of their choice, or they tack on an extra $10 to your purchase to be used in the fight.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?

Last edited by anthonyca; 09-07-2013 at 7:54 AM..
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Old 09-07-2013, 8:41 AM
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I'd be willing to bet that most trade union members ( Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, Ironworker etc. ) are more likely to be pro gun than not. I think putting them all in the liberal/communist basket is a big mistake. The union may encourage them to vote for a pro-union Democrat but I'm sure that many of the members vote the way they want.
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Old 09-07-2013, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
Everyone loves to point out the fact of how the unions run California. There are only 2,489,000 union members in this state of 38,041,430. There are 7,988,700 gun owners in this state. All of you gun owners who won't join a gun rights organization need to think critically about those numbers.

http://www.bls.gov/ro9/unionca.htm
http://usliberals.about.com/od/Elect...Population.htm
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000lk.html
You`re wrong about your assumptions on numbers....imagine those 2,489,000 workers paying constant high union dues and the democrats taking it to fund their political agendas...that`s a lot of money....that`s the main source of funding for the democrat machine in California. Why do you think the democrats were so up in arms in regards to Prop. 32 which would make it illegal to use union money for political agendas. Don`t let the small numbers fool you. Prop. 32 failed to pass by the way. If this ballot ever comes back up to vote...you better make sure to vote yes on it.

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Old 09-07-2013, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
Everyone loves to point out the fact of how the unions run California. There are only 2,489,000 union members in this state of 38,041,430. There are 7,988,700 gun owners in this state. All of you gun owners who won't join a gun rights organization need to think critically about those numbers.

http://www.bls.gov/ro9/unionca.htm
http://usliberals.about.com/od/Elect...Population.htm
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000lk.html
you forgot to count the millions who are beneficiaries of unions, and will vote the same way to protect their own interests...
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Old 09-07-2013, 9:30 AM
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the unions are now the largest doaners to politicians. more than corporations. and it is a one way street for the happy DEMS. if you belong to a union you are part of the problem weather you mean to or not.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:18 AM
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the unions are now the largest doaners to politicians. more than corporations. and it is a one way street for the happy DEMS. if you belong to a union you are part of the problem weather you mean to or not.
I agree. I am a union member (CSEA) and it disgusts me to see where my dues are going. Hundreds of thousands of dollars contributed by CSEA to only Democratic candidates in the past 4 election cycles. Candidates like Yee, DeLeon, Steinberg, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't have many choices.

I can continue being a dues-paying member.

I can opt-out of union membership, but due to CSEA's contract with my employer, an amount equivalent to my dues will be deducted from my pay and be forwarded to a charitable organization to be determined by CSEA. Not much difference there.

Or I could walk away from my job. I have seriously considered that option because I lose sleep over this on a regular basis. But it really isn't an option until my home is paid off. A few more years.

Even more concerning is the number of union employees where I work who are gun owners and don't know or don't care where their contributions are going. Some of them have even been named among the CSEA "Classified Employee of the Year" over the past 4 or 5 years. Oh, the irony.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:39 AM
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It's not about the numbers, it's about the money. Each union member is paying $1,000 and year or more to the union. The unions are organized and use that money to buy politicians. If each gun owner in the state gave $1,000 a year to an efficient organization that used the money to buy politicians we wouldn't be seeing our rights trashed.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:52 AM
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What most unions and their leadership fail to realize that once the 2A has been efficiently assaulted and gutted, the Politico's won't need union muscle anymore. And they will come for you and strip away your power because in the end only they can wield power. Unions were proxies for organized crime, and then graduated to pawns for the real criminals, the Democratic party.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:29 PM
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I agree. I am a union member (CSEA) and it disgusts me to see where my dues are going. Hundreds of thousands of dollars contributed by CSEA to only Democratic candidates in the past 4 election cycles. Candidates like Yee, DeLeon, Steinberg, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't have many choices.

I can continue being a dues-paying member.

I can opt-out of union membership, but due to CSEA's contract with my employer, an amount equivalent to my dues will be deducted from my pay and be forwarded to a charitable organization to be determined by CSEA. Not much difference there.

Or I could walk away from my job. I have seriously considered that option because I lose sleep over this on a regular basis. But it really isn't an option until my home is paid off. A few more years.

Even more concerning is the number of union employees where I work who are gun owners and don't know or don't care where their contributions are going. Some of them have even been named among the CSEA "Classified Employee of the Year" over the past 4 or 5 years. Oh, the irony.
The only money CSEA uses for political purposes is the money voluntarily donated to the "victory fund". If you do not donate as I do not, your dues are used only to fund the union itself. That is in the bylaws of CSEA. As far as how they think I should vote I tell them to F*** themselves.
People say I am a single issue voter and they are correct. If you do not support the 2A you don't support civil rights at all.
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Old 09-07-2013, 1:06 PM
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Originally Posted by desertexplore View Post
Great- another anti union thread to pump up the band wagon and spread more misinformation.

Lets get it all out now- the pension sky is failing, unfunded liabilities (operate just like your home mortgage) and the taxpayers will be forced to save the state some day. Its never happened in the history of the state but by damn, some bitter folks here are demanding it.
Ditto.
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Old 09-07-2013, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
Everyone loves to point out the fact of how the unions run California. There are only 2,489,000 union members in this state of 38,041,430. There are 7,988,700 gun owners in this state. All of you gun owners who won't join a gun rights organization need to think critically about those numbers.
It's easier for union members to quantify the benefit they receive and it's substantial so a much larger share are each willing to part with more money. In practical terms they also often don't have a choice about joining.

To use the California Correctional Peace Officers Association and NRA as examples:

CCPOA members receive an average of $13,000 a year in inflation adjusted money than they did before their union's ascendance to power in exchange for $80 a month which is $960 a year.

We'd probably be worse off without the NRA-ILA and NRA-PVF which leverage the NRA's advertising campaign but I can't say how much worse because I've yet to see something positive come out of their actions in a relevant jurisdiction, just slower "progress" from the other side. NRA dues are just $35 annually and $1000 for life and perhaps $300 with discounts.

Mandatory membership might help us and may not be too hard to achieve. Most skydivers belong to the United States Parachute Association because most dropzones require membership. Most dropzones require membership in part because membership comes with a $50,000 liability policy that pays up when skydivers land on some one's expensive airplane or crops. Something similar might work for shooting ranges.

This ignores the side issue of historically less popular guns being the ones most threatened and the potentially mistaken belief that their owners can be thrown under the bus to protect duck hunters.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 09-07-2013 at 2:45 PM..
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Old 09-07-2013, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by monk View Post
1. Many gun owners in this state don't care.
2. Many gun owners in this state aren't motivated enough to do something about something.
3. Many gun owners in this state agree with the draconian laws.
4. Many gun owners in this state would rather go crazy into debt buying what they want so they can either sell at a premium later, or ***** about how organizations they don't donate to are failing them.
5. Many gun owners are lazy.

Rinse. Repeat.
Many gun owners in this state disagree with the draconian gun laws, but REALLY like what their politician feels about gay marriage/abortion rights, so they continue to vote them into office anyway.

If you do this and you use the other issues as an excuse for why you are stabbing the rest of us in the back, rest assured that once your gun rights are dealt with, your friendly politician will be around shortly to dispense with the remainder of your rights.

ALL of your rights are protected by the 2A. If you vote against the 2A, you are at the whim of your politician.
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Old 09-07-2013, 2:56 PM
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Unions are legally able to siphon off money from ALL union workers, which they use for political purposes. Gun rights organizations must rely on peoples' willingness to contribute. And there is a HUGE contingent unwilling to contribute
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Old 09-07-2013, 2:59 PM
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The only money CSEA uses for political purposes is the money voluntarily donated to the "victory fund". If you do not donate as I do not, your dues are used only to fund the union itself. That is in the bylaws of CSEA. As far as how they think I should vote I tell them to F*** themselves.
People say I am a single issue voter and they are correct. If you do not support the 2A you don't support civil rights at all.
As I understand it, all dues are subject to being used as political contributions. This was the basis for Prop 32, in an attempt to put an end to the practice.
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Old 09-07-2013, 3:02 PM
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As I understand it, all dues are subject to being used as political contributions. This was the basis for Prop 32, in an attempt to put an end to the practice.
No prop 32 was an attempt by the evil corporate bad meanies to prevent the little guy from having a voice in government. I saw it on TV so it must be true.
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Old 09-07-2013, 3:03 PM
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Unions are legally able to siphon off money from ALL union workers, which they use for political purposes. Gun rights organizations must rely on peoples' willingness to contribute. And there is a HUGE contingent unwilling to contribute
Money isn't the only thing dude; there has to be activism and we just don't have it. Sending emails via FPC is great but what good does it do if politicians just ignore them?
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Old 09-07-2013, 3:09 PM
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No prop 32 was an attempt by the evil corporate bad meanies to prevent the little guy from having a voice in government. I saw it on TV so it must be true.
Well, this little guy doesn't want to have any voice in "their government".

I don't want to fund it, either.
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Old 09-07-2013, 3:12 PM
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Money isn't the only thing dude; there has to be activism and we just don't have it.
We have active voices, but we also have people who vote against our own aims. And money is important. Money buys air time. Money buys newspaper ads. Money buys access. Another aspect is this: Unions can collude with politicians in ways that make the politician rich. We have no such ability. There is no bridge or high speed rail kickback from not signing a gun restriction. There are no nepotistic long term jobs associated with not signing gun laws into place. There ARE jobs to be created by gun laws. Union corrections jobs. Union bureaucrat jobs. Union support jobs. Politicians have every incentive to listen to them and not to use because gun owners still vote for them. The vote is the one weapon we have and its the one several refuse to use.
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Old 09-07-2013, 3:12 PM
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Well, this little guy doesn't want to have any voice in "their government".

I don't want to fund it, either.
Preach on brother.
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Old 09-07-2013, 3:48 PM
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cooperations run this country.
If cooperation actually ran this country, it'd be a paradise and there would be much less poverty, perhaps none. I think you meant that corporations run this country, though, and unfortunately you're kind of right.
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Old 09-07-2013, 6:03 PM
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As I understand it, all dues are subject to being used as political contributions. This was the basis for Prop 32, in an attempt to put an end to the practice.
Not all unions are the same. CSEA cannot under the bylaws that the members set use dues for political purposes. Other unions like the much more powerful teachers union do not have this bylaw and their dues can and will be used.
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Old 09-07-2013, 6:11 PM
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Well yes gun owners could but the vast majority don't give money to any pro second amendment organizations. Yet they buy a gun a month.
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Old 09-07-2013, 6:23 PM
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And we won't get any law enforcement union support as long as they are always exempted from the restrictions..
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