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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-06-2013, 1:47 PM
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Angry Apex Tactical denied business loan by Chase Bank

For those who aren't familiar with Randy Lee, he is a top-notch gunsmith and owner of Apex Tactical in San Luis Obispo. He just posted on his Facebook page that Chase Bank has denied them a business loan because it might "tarnish" Chase's reputation in the face of the Sandy Hook atrocity.

https://www.facebook.com/randy.lee.58?fref=ts

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I do not usually voice my complaints publicly, however I was just informed that JP Morgan Chase (Chase Bank) will not loan my company money due to the events at Sandy Hook Elementary! The executives at Chase bank have told our local representatives that they fear that if something were to happen similar to Sandy Hook, and that our products were used that it could tarnish THEIR reputation if it got out that we bank with Chase.
This is unfortunate because my company- Apex Tactical Specialties Inc. is one of the fastest growing companies in the county of San Luis Obispo. We support local businesses such as Achievement House, various machine shops and manufacturers. We also support our local law enforcement agencies and individual officers so that they can have confidence in the tools they must use to protect the public- ESPECIALLY if something like the atrocities committed in Sandy Hook were to occur here.
Until today, I have had a long standing relationship with Chase Bank both on a personal and professional level. I will be closing our business account as well as my personal accounts with Chase Bank immediately.
I have run (and will continue to run) my business with honor, integrity and social conscience. I believe that those in our industry as well as our loyal and supportive customers that have met and/or dealt with myself or any of my staff know that is OUR REPUTATION and legacy. We have reports from law enforcement agencies around the country that some of our products have been used to save lives when deadly force was the final option. That a bank with nameless, faceless decision makers would sit in an ivory tower and judge me and my company for the acts of an insane gunman is mind boggling. Chase is also one of several local banks that courted us because of our rapid growth! I am fortunate that there are other banks in our area that are not so narrow minded.

-Randy
Keep this in mind when you consider using Chase for your banking needs. And if you want to inform Chase that you disagree with their decision:

https://www.chase.com/resources/contact-us-email
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Old 09-06-2013, 2:07 PM
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you can appeal a loan decision to higher ups in Chase, it would not be the first time that an employee of a company went "rogue" due to their personal beliefs which dont represent the company. If he appeals the loan decision and gets the same response from further up the chain then it really means something. Personally I would want to appeal the decision specifically to get clarification on exactly what the Chase position is
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Old 09-06-2013, 2:20 PM
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Something similar happened to Black Aces Tactical... with Bank of America, I believe. They were specifically told that the firearms-related nature of their business was the reason for being denied a small business loan. Small local banks and Credit Unions are probably the way to go. The big banks can go DELETED themselves.
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Last edited by ivanimal; 09-09-2013 at 9:47 PM.. Reason: WF
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  #4  
Old 09-06-2013, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Something similar happened to Black Aces Tactical... with Bank of America, I believe. They were specifically told that the firearms-related nature of their business was the reason for being denied a small business loan. Small local banks and Credit Unions are probably the way to go. The big banks can go fthemselves.
yeah, it'd be a shame to tarnish the sterling reputation of BofA...

Last edited by ivanimal; 09-09-2013 at 9:48 PM..
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Old 09-06-2013, 2:52 PM
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This needs to be followed. I know BofA refuses business loans to some specific industries however, in light of Gays and Lesbians suing business that discriminate against them and winning there may now be precedent to go after the banks for discriminating against the gun owners. Any thoughts? Imagine any bank having a civil jury trial. No one likes banks right now.

Btw, Apex taking it the issue to higher ups is the way to go. Everyone has a supervisor and the higher up you go to more likely someone will realize the blowback for denying a loan based on discrimination. Staples learned their lesson real quick. Maybe time for Chase.
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Old 09-06-2013, 2:56 PM
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These type of posts are foggy to me. What we only have is hearsay about someone saying something from someone else about a loan. I am not saying it is not true, but how accurate is it? At what level is it?

...and moreover where does Smith&Wesson, Springfield, Colt, Kimber, Taurus, Remington, Savage, Ruger, HK (US), Sig (US), and etc. bank and hold accounts? I mean those are major business accounts that obviously are housed in big bank/financial corps.
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  #7  
Old 09-06-2013, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by odysseus View Post
These type of posts are foggy to me. What we only have is hearsay about someone saying something from someone else about a loan. I am not saying it is not true, but how accurate is it? At what level is it?
Go ask Randy. If I trust him to work on my guns, I trust his word.
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Old 09-06-2013, 3:05 PM
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Go ask Randy. If I trust him to work on my guns, I trust his word.
You went in a direction I already commented on as to not to do so. I did not say his word was in question, I am indicating about specifics. For example, was this a branch management decision? Or is this Chase HQ corporate directive? Did they send him a denial letter stating this, or is this some loan officer spouting off erroneous crap in talking?
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Last edited by odysseus; 09-06-2013 at 3:07 PM..
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Old 09-06-2013, 3:12 PM
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We all know Chase is not 2A friendly. If you continue to do business there it is your choice.. but there are far better options..
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Old 09-06-2013, 3:13 PM
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Doesn't matter to me who.didi it. Treating Randy like that is the same as treating me like that.

I'd stand with Randy & Scott any day.

.
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Old 09-06-2013, 3:14 PM
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Look up the May 30, 2013 update at 5:32 AM on Black Aces Tactical Facebook page if you don't believe me. I cant figure out a way to copy the link over from my phone.
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Old 09-06-2013, 3:19 PM
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I don't bank with Chase, but I'm thinking my NRA Visa is a Chase card. I need to check that.
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Old 09-06-2013, 3:24 PM
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All credit union all the time for me!
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Old 09-06-2013, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 2nd Mass View Post
This needs to be followed. I know BofA refuses business loans to some specific industries however, in light of Gays and Lesbians suing business that discriminate against them and winning there may now be precedent to go after the banks for discriminating against the gun owners. Any thoughts? Imagine any bank having a civil jury trial. No one likes banks right now.

Btw, Apex taking it the issue to higher ups is the way to go. Everyone has a supervisor and the higher up you go to more likely someone will realize the blowback for denying a loan based on discrimination. Staples learned their lesson real quick. Maybe time for Chase.
Although Gun Owners are protected by the 2nd amendment, we are not a protected class against discrimination, so your lawsuit would be an unlikely win.
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Old 09-06-2013, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 2nd Mass View Post
This needs to be followed. I know BofA refuses business loans to some specific industries however, in light of Gays and Lesbians suing business that discriminate against them and winning there may now be precedent to go after the banks for discriminating against the gun owners. Any thoughts? Imagine any bank having a civil jury trial. No one likes banks right now.

Btw, Apex taking it the issue to higher ups is the way to go. Everyone has a supervisor and the higher up you go to more likely someone will realize the blowback for denying a loan based on discrimination. Staples learned their lesson real quick. Maybe time for Chase.
I hear judges release people from gun cases if they are NRA members. Just saying; they say it is a creed when convenient to them. One that can cloud the impartiality of cases with guns. They'll claim it is not when it comes to asserting your right to equal protection... but its bs... The mainstream civil right community acts like only leftists get protection from mistreatment over their views but creed is mentioned in the civil rights act... it doesn't say for only leftists in the act...

Then there are the gov list of ideologies / groups who have views that need to be kept an eye on.... so is it a worldview / creed or not?

Last edited by sl0re10; 09-06-2013 at 3:54 PM..
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Old 09-06-2013, 4:10 PM
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I don't bank with Chase, but I'm thinking my NRA Visa is a Chase card. I need to check that.
I know some of the NRA Visas are from First Bankcard (a division of First National Bank of Omaha).
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Old 09-06-2013, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sl0re10 View Post
I hear judges release people from gun cases if they are NRA members. Just saying; they say it is a creed when convenient to them.
Judges (and counsel) release people from jury duty for all kinds or reasons, real or imagined. It's not precedent for anything important.

My father never served on a jury in his life for the simple reason that he was a police officer at one point in his career. Defense counsel politely dismissed him, every single time. Police officers are not a protected class.

I once watched a judge dismiss a man in a sexual harassment case because the fellow insisted he did not believe there was such a thing as sexual harassment. Closed-minded misogynists are not a protected class either.
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Old 09-06-2013, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by prometa View Post
Although Gun Owners are protected by the 2nd amendment, we are not a protected class against discrimination, so your lawsuit would be an unlikely win.
The idea is to get this protected status in the future if at all possible.

After all, there is a clear pattern of intimidation and attacks on people based on their ownership of firearms. For example, there are even background research companies for employment that will specifically search for any firearm related information in social media and use it as a very serious derogatory remark on their report. In other words, be connected to firearms, don't get a job.

The good part is that such a status could be granted outside of CA, much like CA is pushing for "gender identity" to become a protected category (don't confuse this with transgender individuals who are already protected).
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Old 09-06-2013, 4:53 PM
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if this is true, time to go occupy chase locations...
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Old 09-06-2013, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagearms View Post
I know some of the NRA Visas are from First Bankcard (a division of First National Bank of Omaha).
Yup it's a First National Bank of Omaha. No Chase anywhere and keeping it that way.
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Old 09-06-2013, 5:16 PM
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Used the link to let them know that I would not do business with them because of their firearms policy - in hour got message that they would look into it.

Maybe they should receive some additional input

Be sure to mentioned the company as I was so angry that I forgot.
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Old 09-06-2013, 5:29 PM
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Randy is a great guy. Another business I have to boycott. Wonder if USAA makes business loans?
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Old 09-06-2013, 6:03 PM
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Judges (and counsel) release people from jury duty for all kinds or reasons, real or imagined. It's not precedent for anything important.
Its real or its a prejudice... but really probably both. The same judges never seem to throw anti gun group members out (any moveon members? thanks; you can go).
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Old 09-06-2013, 7:30 PM
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.......these attacks on 2A & anything gun related is getting bigger & bigger every day, what is next to come???... Deny Mortgage loan,Car loan, Student loan , college admission etc ...... Just because you have a Gun....
this ain't nothing but a close to slavery time human right violation .....

What ever happens to that free country call USA. ????
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Old 09-06-2013, 9:54 PM
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I wonder how many pistols, rifles, lowers, etc. have been purchased on Chase credit cards since Newtown? I should be on a dozen or more by year end on my Chase card.
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:52 PM
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Randy is a great guy. Another business I have to boycott. Wonder if USAA makes business loans?
I believe they do.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by prometa View Post
Although Gun Owners are protected by the 2nd amendment, we are not a protected class against discrimination, so your lawsuit would be an unlikely win.
Aren't gun owners the minority in CA? Imagine what would happen if just ONE case was won regarding discriminating against us minority gun owners. Can of worms...No, a can of WHOOP *****!
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:47 PM
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Aren't gun owners the minority in CA? Imagine what would happen if just ONE case was won regarding discriminating against us minority gun owners. Can of worms...No, a can of WHOOP *****!
Almost 8 million gun owners in Cali not a clear minority. However, a suit based on denial of services from Chase do to the belief in the second amendment might work. A belief may be a stronger case. Aren't religious and other beliefs protected? Ideas?
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Old 09-08-2013, 5:33 AM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
Doesn't matter to me who.didi it. Treating Randy like that is the same as treating me like that.

I'd stand with Randy & Scott any day.

.

Exactly! They are stellar individuals with an excellent reputation.
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Old 09-08-2013, 7:20 AM
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Originally Posted by sl0re10 View Post
Its real or its a prejudice... but really probably both. The same judges never seem to throw anti gun group members out (any moveon members? thanks; you can go).
I was excused from a capital case because of my stated opposition to the death penalty.

Again, jurors are dismissed for all kinds of reasons.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:06 PM
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I was excused from a capital case because of my stated opposition to the death penalty.
Significantly different. Your opposition is to the law itself that you would be asked to apply to the case which would make you an anti-law (for the lack of better phrase). Being an NRA member doesn't make one an anti-law person.
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Old 09-08-2013, 2:46 PM
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Banking with Chase is like getting your news from CNN...no self-respecting 2A supporter should be doing either...
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Old 09-08-2013, 4:39 PM
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I just sent a scathing email to them. Tomorrow morning I will be in closing my account.
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Old 09-09-2013, 6:46 AM
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Significantly different. Your opposition is to the law itself that you would be asked to apply to the case which would make you an anti-law (for the lack of better phrase). Being an NRA member doesn't make one an anti-law person.
Generally, NRA membership is shorthand for "conservative," and defense counsel, depending on the charges (or the complexion of the defendant), might not want an law-and-order types on the jury. On the other hand, NRA membership would certainly make one disinclined to bring in a guilty verdict in particular firearms-related cases, so the prosecution wouldn't want you on the jury in those cases.

Both sides are looking for anything that might prejudice a juror. Again, it's nothing precedent-setting.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:28 AM
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Chase's image is already tarnished by some of their business & trading practices.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:40 AM
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The quote in the OP reads too much like an advertisement for the guy's business to be believed at face value alone. I'm interested in hearing if there is more to this.
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Old 09-09-2013, 1:22 PM
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I would think that a bank would state it's decision to decline a loan based on business considerations and not on political considerations, even if the latter is their real reason.
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Old 09-09-2013, 4:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd Mass View Post
This needs to be followed. I know BofA refuses business loans to some specific industries however, in light of Gays and Lesbians suing business that discriminate against them and winning there may now be precedent to go after the banks for discriminating against the gun owners. Any thoughts? Imagine any bank having a civil jury trial. No one likes banks right now.

Btw, Apex taking it the issue to higher ups is the way to go. Everyone has a supervisor and the higher up you go to more likely someone will realize the blowback for denying a loan based on discrimination. Staples learned their lesson real quick. Maybe time for Chase.
Courts have ruled gays and lesbians are a protected class. Not so for firearms owners or firearms related businesses. SO Apex tactical can appeal or go to another lending institution. I know it puts a crimp in their style right now...but the gang at Apex Tactical is sharp...they are good entrepreneurs and they'll find a loan with a reasonable rate.
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Old 09-09-2013, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
I once watched a judge dismiss a man in a sexual harassment case because the fellow insisted he did not believe there was such a thing as sexual harassment. Closed-minded misogynists are not a protected class either.
By any chance, was that man's name, "Bill Clinton"?
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Old 09-09-2013, 5:35 PM
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BlooDSMeaR BlooDSMeaR is offline
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