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  #1  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:02 PM
JP1805 JP1805 is offline
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Default Defensive Tactics Styles

I am curious as to what the rest of you use for defensive tactics/arrest and control techniques.

I currently use and teach the Koga techniques for ACT and straight baton. I have used Koga successfully in the field but I want to add more "tools" to my tool box.

What do you guys who are currently working the field think about Koga? Are there any other ACT styles that you think work better?
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Old 08-26-2013, 8:33 PM
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I stay trained in Aikido and Judo.
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Old 08-26-2013, 9:17 PM
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I like koga. It feels very natural to me and its not all fancied up to the point where I don't remember it. It's become instinctive to me. On a side note, the koga sd1 stick is cool, but I've never used on outside of training. Straight stick all the way. 29" dymondwood.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:41 PM
CBR_rider CBR_rider is offline
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Aikido has some very nice components for LE work...

Though I myself am a 3rd Degree Black Belt in this style:


Last edited by CBR_rider; 08-26-2013 at 10:46 PM..
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:28 PM
Samuelx Samuelx is offline
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I am curious as to what the rest of you use for defensive tactics/arrest and control techniques.

For me personally, I have my own blend of styles/techniques pulled from a bunch of different MA’s – different tools for different ranges of combat and circumstances/situations. I would say my “home system” is JKD/FMA. For instructing most of our inservice classes though, especially training recruits, our curriculum and training methodologies are largely (but not all) Krav based. For the times when we have a lot of material to cover, a relatively short time to cover it in, and a wide range and large number of students, Krav works pretty well.

I currently use and teach the Koga techniques for ACT and straight baton. I have used Koga successfully in the field but I want to add more "tools" to my tool box.

In what combat range(s) or under what kinds of circumstances do you think it would be nicer for you to have more tools?

What do you guys who are currently working the field think about Koga? Are there any other ACT styles that you think work better?

I’ve only had a brief introduction to Koga. The little that I saw didn’t really appeal to me personally because I already had my preferences for accomplishing certain goals or responding to certain types of situations/threats/attacks/etc.

I’m very comfortable with the things I train in now but I’m always looking for whatever else is available out there and/or trying to make what I’ve got work even better. As an instructor, I also have to be able to present a variety of options/tools/techniques (even the ones I don’t favor) because not everyone can do what I do or would prefer to do what I do (and vice versa). Quite often, I'm taking little bits from here and there and adding that to my library or repertoire - I've never taken an entire style/system en masse and adopted it entirely or used it exclusively.

Last edited by Samuelx; 08-26-2013 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP1805 View Post
I am curious as to what the rest of you use for defensive tactics/arrest and control techniques.
Oh no, that's far too militarized, so I stick strictly with smiles and puppies.

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Old 08-27-2013, 12:53 PM
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I like Koga. Its simple and works.
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Old 08-27-2013, 4:47 PM
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Oh no, that's far too militarized, so I stick strictly with smiles and puppies.
If I was a handler, I'd be smiling every time I saw my puppy do this:



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Old 08-27-2013, 4:53 PM
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Thanks for all the feedback.

I have heard some good things about Krav, but I have also heard that Krav is aggressive and good for defense, but not so good for control.
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Old 08-27-2013, 4:58 PM
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[QUOTE=Samuelx;12166901]In what combat range(s) or under what kinds of circumstances do you think it would be nicer for you to have more tools?

I chose my words poorly. I did not mean actual physical tools, I meant knowing different techniques to use in case the first (or multiple) technique I tried failed.

For example, I once had a suspect I was searching try to pull away from me. Since I already had him in a twist lock I attempted an arm bar takedown but the suspect would not go down that way. I transitioned to a hair pull take down and that worked quite nicely.
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Old 08-27-2013, 6:44 PM
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Wrestling, All fights go to the ground.
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Old 08-27-2013, 9:17 PM
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Russian Combat Sambo , Some VERY basic Karate and staying in shape.
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  #13  
Old 08-27-2013, 9:39 PM
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[QUOTE=JP1805;12171906]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuelx View Post
In what combat range(s) or under what kinds of circumstances do you think it would be nicer for you to have more tools?

I chose my words poorly. I did not mean actual physical tools, I meant knowing different techniques to use in case the first (or multiple) technique I tried failed.

For example, I once had a suspect I was searching try to pull away from me. Since I already had him in a twist lock I attempted an arm bar takedown but the suspect would not go down that way. I transitioned to a hair pull take down and that worked quite nicely.
I didn't think you chose your words poorly - I took it to mean techniques and not equipment. And I think your approach is good - having options, being able to transition, being ready to respond to likely subject reactions or possible counters, etc. If you're looking at close range grabbing, joint manipulations, control, takedowns, etc, maybe take a look at blending things from arts like judo, traditional jiu-jitsu, aikido, wrestling, etc. Quite a few arts have lock flows that help transition between techniques while responding to subject reactions.
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Old 08-27-2013, 9:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP1805 View Post
Thanks for all the feedback.

I have heard some good things about Krav, but I have also heard that Krav is aggressive and good for defense, but not so good for control.
Depending on KM organization and school, you may not see much controlling techniques in a civilian KM class or curriculum. I think you might find more in an LE course. Even then, I personally have not seen all that much in my KM training. I recommend blending that KM with whatever you already have in your tool box and I would still look to other arts and styles for more tools.

Btw, as far as controlling a subject is concerned - the two times it's easiest to handcuff someone: 1. when they're cooperative or 2. when they're unconscious...

Last edited by Samuelx; 08-27-2013 at 9:59 PM..
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Old 08-27-2013, 9:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socaliente View Post
Wrestling, All fights go to the ground.
IMO, wrestling is a very good Building Block but can be a liability by itself in a real fight or for LE work. Not ALL fights go to the ground BUT they can easily end up there and we should definitely be ready for that eventuality. For LE purposes, we usually try to avoid going to the ground Except for when it's advantageous or less disadvantageous for us to do so. Fwiw, I did a couple of years of wrestling as a kid - the first almost martial art I trained in. As an instructor, it's fun having wrestlers in class because they typically bring a lot of positive attributes to the table...
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Old 08-27-2013, 9:57 PM
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As a convict once told me....... "Yard style."
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  #17  
Old 08-28-2013, 5:36 AM
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@JP1805,

I've been a Koga instructor for ACT and impact weapons since 2004. It works for most of what we do. I teach that Koga is just a basic understanding of body mechanics and ACT fundamentals. Some adapting may be required for different situations.

Additionally, I have over 20 years of Judo/Jiu-jitsu. Having trained in both Japan and Brazil (in my younger competative years). As well as being a Judo coach for a local college. Having experience in ANY grapple-oriented MA, be it jiu-jitsu based or other, will GREATLY enhance your ability in the field and as an instructor. Besides the Japanese based MA's, I have had the opportunity to train with guys from Sambo and Krav Maga schools. I was impressed with their technique, but I never actually "trained" in either of those MAs. I will say, that when asked in court about my supplemental skills, I won't have to explain why I train in a Russian/Isreali military MA designed for killing enemy combatants. Judo/jiu-jitsu are a submission and subdue type of MA. Very little of their technique can be considered "offensive" in nature... It's the GENTAL WAY.

Having a brief history with boxing and kickboxing, I can say that after 10 years of LE, I have never needed either technique. I learned the basics on how not to break my hand in a punch, and how to stay away from the other guys punches till I can get inside his guard. Boxing/kick-boxing were a great workout, but really don't add much to LE use. If you go around utilizing those kinds of skills often, you wouldn't be long for this career.
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Old 08-28-2013, 6:28 AM
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Quote:
Wrestling, All fights go to the ground.
This. Then, quickness is safety. Overwhelm with sudden violence and it can be over very quickly.
Four years, six months and two weeks of overcrowded jail duty, in the early '80's, teaches that lesson. It always frustrates me to see (on Cops) guys struggling to force someones arm around. Pronate / supinate (whichever one is right) and take the strength out of the equation then bring it around.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robocop1051 View Post
I will say, that when asked in court about my supplemental skills, I won't have to explain why I train in a Russian/Isreali military MA designed for killing enemy combatants.

Robo brings up an interesting hypothetical. Are you (you as an individual LEO, in general) ready to answer that question? I don’t know the history of Sambo but as far as KM goes, my understanding is that the reason for the development of KM and for training in KM is “so that one may walk in peace” (Imi Lichtenfeld). KM was originally taught to military/LE but has a civilian side too – i.e. it’s not just about “killing enemy combatants”.

No PD or CDA has ever attempted to go that route with me but they wouldn’t have gotten very far if they had. I would have absolutely no problem explaining why I train in a variety of arts/styles – even the ones that certain people might think are “too aggressive” or “too lethal” – and I wouldn’t have much difficulty getting regular folks to agree with me either. IMO, every one of us should be enough of an “expert” to explain our uses of force and to justify what we train and how we train. Both “softer” and “harder” techniques/styles have their times/places.


Having a brief history with boxing and kickboxing, I can say that after 10 years of LE, I have never needed either technique.

Which I would guess is probably more of a testament to your tac comm skills, ability to control range, expertise with other techniques, etc.

I learned the basics on how not to break my hand in a punch,

Definitely important

and how to stay away from the other guys punches till I can get inside his guard.

Controlling range is ideal

Boxing/kick-boxing were a great workout, but really don't add much to LE use.

Respectfully DISagree!

If you go around utilizing those kinds of skills often, you wouldn't be long for this career.

IMO, yes and no. I personally would modify that to ‘if you go around needlessly getting into fights…’
IMO, having tools, techniques, abilities, experience, etc in Every range of combat is Crucial. All else being equal, the longer you can maintain that range where you have an advantage over your opponent, the better the chance you will win. You never want to be a fish out of water in any one (or more) range(s). We prefer to but we don’t always get to pick the range. Sometimes we’re just trying to get into that range where we’re at the least disadvantage. The more ranges that you excel in, the better.

Do some multiple opponent drills and you’ll quickly see when/why it might be better to stay up and mobile, utilizing striking techniques and takedown defense, rather than committing to engaging with one and/or being entangled on the ground.

(fwiw, I respect and agree with all the other things you posted - I've got a Tiny bit of Judo experience, some traditional JJ, and a decent amount of BJJ/grappling - love all of it)

Last edited by Samuelx; 08-28-2013 at 12:49 PM..
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Old 08-28-2013, 2:54 PM
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Thanks again for all the reply's guys! You all have helped me very much. I will look into taking a Krav Maga class.

@Robocop1051,

We have probably met each other at a Koga class once or twice. I am a fairly recent "convert" to Koga and have only been using that style for a little over one year now.

@SamuelX,

The advise you have given me is greatly appreciated. I have never had to justify a particular UOF style and/or technique in court but recently I had some young students, recently discharged from the military, question why the ACT/UOF techniques I taught were different from the techniques they learned in the military. I explained that the goal of the military was to destroy the enemy. The goal of law enforcement was to take control of a suspect and take him or her into custody. The techniques were different because the ultimate goal was different.
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Old 08-28-2013, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robocop1051 View Post
Having a brief history with boxing and kickboxing, I can say that after 10 years of LE, I have never needed either technique. I learned the basics on how not to break my hand in a punch, and how to stay away from the other guys punches till I can get inside his guard. Boxing/kick-boxing were a great workout, but really don't add much to LE use. If you go around utilizing those kinds of skills often, you wouldn't be long for this career.
You never used a "kick" on the street? Having "kicks" in your "toolbox" is just another tool. Different tools for different tasks, i.e. I had a suspect that had 24 inch arms and he wants to go mano o mano with cops. Dropped him with one kick. (a 70 yard FG type kick BTW).

So next time in the same area a 6-4 300# suspect knew to stay close enough so he would not "get the kick" so he got a "head butt" instead and was easily handcuffed.

Remember no second place will do in a street fight. I lean towards krav maga but have a working knowledge in almost everything on the street. Stay safe my friends
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Old 08-28-2013, 6:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Che762x39 View Post
Dropped him with one kick.

Niiiice!

he got a "head butt" instead

Double Niiiice!
Hope you kicked POS #1 in the ding-ding and killed two birds with one stone (him being a threat and him being able to procreate) - or would that be two stones with one bird?


JP, PMed you...
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Old 08-28-2013, 7:25 PM
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PM replied.
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  #24  
Old 08-28-2013, 9:33 PM
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Whatever style, it must be hard, fast, and decisive. If you *****foot around, you are giving them more time to hurt you. What looks worse on video? One hard and decisive blow, or a bunch of ineffective strikes? Ask the fellas in the Rodney King video. While it looked bad, those baton strikes sucked.

When it is time to get down and dirty, Git'r dun.
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Old 08-29-2013, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Whatever style, it must be hard, fast, and decisive. If you *****foot around, you are giving them more time to hurt you. What looks worse on video? One hard and decisive blow, or a bunch of ineffective strikes? Ask the fellas in the Rodney King video. While it looked bad, those baton strikes sucked.

When it is time to get down and dirty, Git'r dun.
It's a shame you retired, Sir!
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Whatever style, it must be hard, fast, and decisive. If you *****foot around, you are giving them more time to hurt you. What looks worse on video? One hard and decisive blow, or a bunch of ineffective strikes? Ask the fellas in the Rodney King video. While it looked bad, those baton strikes sucked.

When it is time to get down and dirty, Git'r dun.
+1

Those baton strikes were lame. Every pay day put a drop of oil on the slide rails and practice for 15 minutes with the PR-24 (my preferred impact weapon).

and Git'r dun
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Old 08-29-2013, 1:19 PM
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My pet peeves during use of force situations: When I say "I got this" or "I have his arm pinned, just cuff him" please either a) cuff the suspect or b) find something else to do. Last month I had a guy's arm solidly pinned and while my partner was cuffing him some meat head from another unit kept trying to yank the suspect's arm and move it around/out of my hold. What's that old saying, "too many chef's in the kitchen..."
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Old 08-29-2013, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR_rider View Post
My pet peeves during use of force situations: When I say "I got this" or "I have his arm pinned, just cuff him" please either a) cuff the suspect or b) find something else to do. Last month I had a guy's arm solidly pinned and while my partner was cuffing him some meat head from another unit kept trying to yank the suspect's arm and move it around/out of my hold. What's that old saying, "too many chef's in the kitchen..."
That, and the mystery arm that reaches thru the crowd and smacks the guy on the melon and then dissappears into the mist. Own up to your handiwork or GTFO.
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Old 08-29-2013, 3:59 PM
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Could be worse, could be friendly fire that doesn't get owned up to...
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Old 08-29-2013, 4:00 PM
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SamX brings up good points. I respect and understand his views. I truly appreciate a partner who is willing to be a constructive part of a fight rather than a hinderence or liability. SamX represented himself as a guy who understands there's boundries to our job, but there's also an expectation to get the job done.

I spent a good portion of my first few years sitting in an admin office and learning the intricacies of internal affairs tactics. A shy bit too heavy handed in my youth, earned me some time off and desk duty for a spell. What I took from all that, was a vicious ability to justify my actions in a fight. As well as an uncanny ability to make attorneys sound foolish. Trial by fire I guess. Learn how, or turn in your badge.

I guess what I failed to say was, ANY fighting style (in addition to our training) is better than sitting on your duff working on your Call of Duty KDR. The best one is the one that works best for you. I realize it sounds cliché, but it's pretty spot on.

Watch UFC Champion, Ronda Rousey, in her fights. Personality and character aside, she's one hellofa fighter. A perfect example of, master what you're good at and be proficient in everything else... So that you can get back to what you're good at. Everyone she fights knows she is a master at armbar submission. They all say they're going to stand there and knock her out. Somehow she fights through all of their defense with her little bit of striking experience, and has won every single professional MMA match with an armbar submission. The theory is sound and proven.

I still thuroughly enjoy the little tussles I find myself in. I don't seek them out, but Im not afraid to welcome them when they show up. My Judo/JJ/BJJ has been a significant asset in my career. Having been a motor for 6 of my 10 years, any other fighting style is kinda hampered by my gear. Being an impa t weapon instructor has helped loads too. I'll be the first one to say that carrying an SL-20 has ended more would-be fights than my stupid ASP... Not shy about introducing a turd to the blunt end of my stainless P220 in a quick flash, just to gain a desired level of attention.

We all do our jobs. Many of us do it well. Those that have been here long enough recognize there are a million ways to get desired results. Learning from the mistakes of others is a safe approach, but doesn't necessarily build life experience. Sometimes you have to earn your lumps and scars yourself.
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:13 PM
Jack's Smirking Revenge Jack's Smirking Revenge is offline
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Koga is great if the suspect is compliant.
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