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  #1  
Old 08-14-2013, 9:53 AM
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Question Confused by 44 rem mag / 200 gr recipes - cast vs JHP

I know this is a HUGE generalization, but something doesn't make sense wrt lead vs. JHP for 44 Rem Mag/200 gr bullets across the board.

Most recipes for lead are in the 10-12k CUP/PSI range, and velocities in the 1000-1200 fps.

In the same category, the JHP (which I assume is a softer bullet and jacketed) are 25k-35k PSI and can be above 1500 fps.


In other words - why is lead at about 10k pressures vs 20-35k for the same weight bullet? 240 gr - pressures are about the same... most above 30k.

I only noticed this with 200 gr and this calibre and looked at several sources (IMR website, Lee 2nd Edition)
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Old 08-14-2013, 12:01 PM
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Lead is softer that copper jackets and travels down the barrel easier. Since there is less resistance, less pressure is generated/needed to get it moving.

Barrel leading causes is a whole other topic.
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Old 08-14-2013, 8:31 PM
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I hear you guys, but the pressures are nearly 1/3 of the plated/jacketed bullets wrt 44 RemMag/200gr boolits. And nowhere near the maximum.

Yet when you get to like 44/240 gr - they are all nearly 30k pressures across the board (PSI/CUP). Velocities are comparable.

Lee's 2nd edition talks about flame front burning the lead off but he was making rounds that were WAY over the 'hot' loads for a 30-06 rifle round. The point of the article was to stress that hotter is not better.

I dunno.

.
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Old 08-14-2013, 9:36 PM
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In my experience, hotter is often not better. It tends to be less accurate, more unpleasant to shoot. That's not an absolute but a mid range load is often the best choice.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:18 AM
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I'm not looking at data, but often manuals depict target loads. In 38 special they will often use faster powder. Pressure won't be far different, but velocity will. I'm just guessing, but these could be designed as target loads mimicking 44 special (the predominate reason one would shoot 200gr lead in a 44 mag). As a general rule, lead shouldn't be pushed beyond 1200 fps in pistol cartridges.
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Old 08-15-2013, 7:43 AM
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I think a closer data review will show some fast powders closer to 20K, but in holding velocities to sub 1200 fps, you're just not gonna see the pressure you do in jacketed at 1500+ fps. It's a big case and even with relatively fast powders, you'll exceed typical lead velocity threshold before you approach magnum pressures.
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Old 08-15-2013, 1:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
I think a closer data review will show some fast powders closer to 20K, but in holding velocities to sub 1200 fps, you're just not gonna see the pressure you do in jacketed at 1500+ fps. It's a big case and even with relatively fast powders, you'll exceed typical lead velocity threshold before you approach magnum pressures.
Still got me scratching my head. I JUST think I have this figured out, and what the heck - there is an exception. And this is just PISTOL loads.. I do understand your point.

I did notice (on 45C) that there was diminishing returns with Trail Boss. Might be the same deal here.

I hear you Stilly - art vs. science, but I'm a science guy... So I ended up buying 240 gr bullets until I understand the 200gr dilemma..

.
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Old 08-15-2013, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drdarrin@sbcglobal.net View Post
Lead is softer that copper jackets and travels down the barrel easier. Since there is less resistance, less pressure is generated/needed to get it moving. .
Actually, plain based lead bullets have more drag than jacketed.
This is because the lead bullets are slightly oversized / larger than jacketed causing more friction as it goes down the barrel.
Lead bullets also swell up when fired to better grip the rifling, which is why they are favored for bulls eye shooting and similar paper target applications.
This oversize feature can lead to higher pressures in addition to a leading problem if the bullet is pushed down the barrel too fast.

Plated bullets are just lead with plating, the plating reduces leading in the barrel, but otherwise they are the same as plain lead bullets and should be loaded as such.

For max velocity loads always use a jacketed bullet.
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Old 08-15-2013, 1:36 PM
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Actually, plain based lead bullets have more drag than jacketed.
This is because the lead bullets are slightly oversized / larger than jacketed causing more friction as it goes down the barrel.
Lead bullets also swell up when fired to better grip the rifling, which is why they are favored for bulls eye shooting and similar paper target applications.
This oversize feature can lead to higher pressures in addition to a leading problem if the bullet is pushed down the barrel too fast.

Plated bullets are just lead with plating, the plating reduces leading in the barrel, but otherwise they are the same as plain lead bullets and should be loaded as such.

For max velocity loads always use a jacketed bullet.
Ahh, stiction. (Static friction) - so basically, the pressures in the 'recipes' are not the maximum during the ignition phase... ( am I getting your point ? ). Didn't know that lead bullets deform more than plated. But we are talking high potential pressures here.

Is this why the rifle guys don't use lead/unplated bullets ?

We might be getting somewhere here.. Thanks to all for your input.

BTW - happy Birthday! lolz.
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Old 08-15-2013, 3:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
Actually, plain based lead bullets have more drag than jacketed.
This is because the lead bullets are slightly oversized / larger than jacketed causing more friction as it goes down the barrel.
Lead bullets also swell up when fired to better grip the rifling, which is why they are favored for bulls eye shooting and similar paper target applications.
This oversize feature can lead to higher pressures in addition to a leading problem if the bullet is pushed down the barrel too fast.

Plated bullets are just lead with plating, the plating reduces leading in the barrel, but otherwise they are the same as plain lead bullets and should be loaded as such.

For max velocity loads always use a jacketed bullet.
Grain for grain and charge for charge, lead is faster. It takes more energy to rifling engrave a jacketed bullet than even on oversize (0.001") lead bullet. pretty easy to see on calibers where lead threshold velocity (say 1200 fps) doesn't come into play.

The "phenomenon" the OP mentions is due to the fact that lead "shouldn't" be driven at .44 mag velocities. So the manuals call out various downloaded recipes for use with .44 mag lead rounds. It's just a matter of physics (internal ballistics) that the pressures will be greatly reduced as well. This holds true with 240gr lead as well, just to a lesser degree.

I agree that magnum velocities should stick to jacketed bullets. I disagree that lead squeezing through the rifling will result in high pressures. There's no "critical speed" where pressures rise. The highest pressure is achieved very early in the bullet's travel.
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Old 08-15-2013, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
The "phenomenon" the OP mentions is due to the fact that lead "shouldn't" be driven at .44 mag velocities. So the manuals call out various downloaded recipes for use with .44 mag lead rounds. It's just a matter of physics (internal ballistics) that the pressures will be greatly reduced as well. This holds true with 240gr lead as well, just to a lesser degree.

I agree that magnum velocities should stick to jacketed bullets. I disagree that lead squeezing through the rifling will result in high pressures. There's no "critical speed" where pressures rise. The highest pressure is achieved very early in the bullet's travel.
I hate to break it to ya.........but, a plain base 44mag boolit can be driven just as fast a jacketed bullet with out leading, if you know what your doing!

Take care
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Old 08-15-2013, 5:02 PM
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I hate to break it to ya.........but, a plain base 44mag boolit can be driven just as fast a jacketed bullet with out leading, if you know what your doing!

Take care
Abenaki
Not sure I believe in magic. ( a line we use at work a lot ).

So how do you explain the difference in 200gr vs 240gr ? Cast/Lead vs. JHP ?

Pressures are about 2.5 times lower in recipes for 200gr Cast/Lead vs 200gr JHP

I don't see that anywhere else in pistol loads. ( Remember - I'm not a rifle guy, so may be missing something huge here ).

.
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Old 08-15-2013, 5:41 PM
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I am not talking about 200gr vs 240gr bullets.

I am not talking about pressures.

May be I didn't explain myself very well.

What I am talking about is the fact that if you know what your are doing, you can send a plain base lead boolit the same velocity that you can a jacketed bullet out of a 44 mag. handgun with out leading!

Folks do it all of the time!

Take care
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Old 08-15-2013, 5:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeusa View Post
Ahh, stiction. (Static friction) - so basically, the pressures in the 'recipes' are not the maximum during the ignition phase... ( am I getting your point ? ). Didn't know that lead bullets deform more than plated. But we are talking high potential pressures here.

No...plated bullets are just lead ones with a soft coating on them that reduces leading and provides some lubrication.
Jacketed bullets, in a simple explanation, are a hard metal cup (jacket) that the lead core is put into.

Is this why the rifle guys don't use lead/unplated bullets ?
Yes. Lead bullets are used only at much lower velocities.

BTW - happy Birthday! lolz.
.
Thanx for the Happy B day! : ))

Now here's the deal in the real world:
Most lead bullets generally sold are very soft and are best used at lower velocities.
There are "hard-cast" lead bullets that can be driven to much higher velocities, but these generally do cost more.
There is a whole website devoted to this topic, called castboolits.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

These hard casts are what Abenaki is referring to.
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Old 08-15-2013, 7:46 PM
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the laoding manuals I think all default to soft factory swaged boolits and since most use them for target they only list target loads.

I cast and my 44 250 gr swc laod to same as jacketed and with LESS friction than jacketed they go a little faster.
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Old 08-15-2013, 9:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abenaki View Post
I hate to break it to ya.........but, a plain base 44mag boolit can be driven just as fast a jacketed bullet with out leading, if you know what your doing!

Take care
Abenaki
Well..you're not breaking anything to me. Jacketed bullets are relatively new compared to 44 and 357 development. Magnum velocties were achieved prior to the mass availabilty of economic jacketed bullets. Most of today's commercially available lead bullets which represent a savings from jacketed aren't candidates for 1500+ fps though.
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Old 08-16-2013, 2:54 PM
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JagerDog

You are 100% correct!

Take care
Abenaki
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