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  #121  
Old 07-09-2013, 2:02 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
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Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
So in CA voting for libertarians, who believe in very limited government and taking the candy bowl away, will some how win in a state the Dems have turned to their favor by making it into 1 big huge candy bowl?

Sorry, just don't see it.
They're certainly a better option regarding 2a than voting for dems in CA, and it's not like the republican party in CA is best buddies with us at all times regarding 2a either.
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  #122  
Old 07-09-2013, 2:24 PM
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So OP, what makes you think you are "progressive"? What defines a "progressive" in your mind? A lot of people use terms to describe themselves but actually aren't accurate sometimes.
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  #123  
Old 07-09-2013, 3:09 PM
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Changed my mind...
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Last edited by pastureofmuppets; 07-09-2013 at 3:54 PM..
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  #124  
Old 07-09-2013, 4:06 PM
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Believe me, I've considered it, and I am a member of The Liberal Gun Club. My intent was to enter the enemy's camp, so to speak, and attempt to engage the more conservative members on how better they could engage in dialogue with liberals and to suggest how to convert liberals on the fence. This fallacy that liberals don't own guns is, quite frankly, a figment of the conservative mind that cannot comprehend it. In the real world, we own guns just like you do. perhaps not in the same numbers, but we do exist. And we are just as concerned as you are over the erosion of our liberties when it comes to gun ownership in California. One simpleton suggestion echoed here is to stop voting Democratic. While that may seem the easy answer, in real life it's just not that simple. Would you start voting Democrat just because you believe in a woman's right to choose? I started this thread to attempt to engage conservatives on how best to address issues that effect us both. I won't continue to waste my time if your only response is to fling your feces at me.
You don't need a special progressive sub-forum here. You can engage without one. You're going to need a thick skin and be willing to deal with some people who want nothing more than to fling poo at you. Start a thread on how to engage at least some element of the left on 2A rights. How do I convince a left of center person on the fence about guns to care about 2A rights, especially with the onslaught after Newton and given that the candidates they naturally support are rabidly anti? In other words how do I get that left of center person to send a letter to DiFi or Nancy Skinner that says I love you and support you but you're wrong on guns?

It doesn't matter how much somebody loves guns if they continually nominate, donate, and for vote for candidates who want to ban guns. Do I vote taxes, or guns, or social issues, or the environment? Like many here I'm economically conservative and socially liberal. We don't have a viable option that matches our beliefs so we hold out noses and prioritize our issues on election day. Not that it matters as my representative will be whatever progressive the local machine supports. I voted for Gary Johnson knowing it didn't matter.

I welcome your effort. We'll never win if we stay in an echo chamber. Until we can move the needle on election day we're stuck with fighting in court.
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  #125  
Old 07-09-2013, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post

Nice thread ya got 'ere.

Pity if sumpin' would 'appen to it.

Talkin' 'bout the topic 'stead o the talkers'd be a big help.
Touche
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  #126  
Old 07-09-2013, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
So OP, what makes you think you are "progressive"? What defines a "progressive" in your mind? A lot of people use terms to describe themselves but actually aren't accurate sometimes.
That's a pretty broad question. And labels are just that, labels. I identify as a "progressive" simply because it's the easiest way to discern me from a "conservative". On the hot button issues (with the exception of 2A) I side mostly with the Democratic Plank.
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  #127  
Old 07-09-2013, 5:19 PM
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Touche
That wasn't a rebuttal, it was a threat!

Translation: Minimum of personal attacks or back and forth = thread stays open. If not, thread is doomed!
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  #128  
Old 07-09-2013, 5:29 PM
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Im all that and a box of chocolates. Lets move on
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  #129  
Old 07-09-2013, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready_eSeVe View Post
That wasn't a rebuttal, it was a threat!

Translation: Minimum of personal attacks or back and forth = thread stays open. If not, thread is doomed!
Understood.
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  #130  
Old 07-09-2013, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericb760 View Post
That's a pretty broad question. And labels are just that, labels. I identify as a "progressive" simply because it's the easiest way to discern me from a "conservative". On the hot button issues (with the exception of 2A) I side mostly with the Democratic Plank.
A progressive would be more like an atheist who goes around filing lawsuits against christian symbols of america's heritage because it doesn't fit their view. Or say someone who doesn't believe in free market capitalism and agitates to have policies or law changed to have employees sit on a board of directors and have binding decisions in how the company operates and uses its capital. The main idea of a progressive is there is a need to change (read "progress") society away from its norms and culture to something they see fit. Progressives in the late 1800's, early 1900's were responsible for promoting the science of eugenics, which led to modern day racism. Things like there are superior genetics in certain races and to improve the human lot, laws should be changed to make sure humans progress. So laws against marrying other races, mentally handicapped or mentally ill should not be allowed to procreate, and marrying within your own social class encouraged. Hitler and his superior race all born out of progressivism. You know the end result of that. I bring that up because "progressive" isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree with that and its pretty indefensible. Marxism and socialism are progressive too. Progressive covers a lot of territory, but basically trying to change society. And I agree, labels and pigeon holing are not accurate, humans vary in too many ways to absolutely quantify politically.
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  #131  
Old 07-09-2013, 7:36 PM
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A progressive would be more like an atheist who goes around filing lawsuits against christian symbols of america's heritage because it doesn't fit their view. Or say someone who doesn't believe in free market capitalism and agitates to have policies or law changed to have employees sit on a board of directors and have binding decisions in how the company operates and uses its capital. The main idea of a progressive is there is a need to change (read "progress") society away from its norms and culture to something they see fit. Progressives in the late 1800's, early 1900's were responsible for promoting the science of eugenics, which led to modern day racism. Things like there are superior genetics in certain races and to improve the human lot, laws should be changed to make sure humans progress. So laws against marrying other races, mentally handicapped or mentally ill should not be allowed to procreate, and marrying within your own social class encouraged. Hitler and his superior race all born out of progressivism. You know the end result of that. I bring that up because "progressive" isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree with that and its pretty indefensible. Marxism and socialism are progressive too. Progressive covers a lot of territory, but basically trying to change society. And I agree, labels and pigeon holing are not accurate, humans vary in too many ways to absolutely quantify politically.
I think that we can both agree that the definition of "progressive" in 1900 has little to do with it's meaning today in the world of social media. Much like "Republican" in 1850 has no real correlation with "Republican" today. Look at how the roles for both parties have changed in the South in just the last 50 years. That's why I say that it's just a label. And FYI, I do happen to be an Atheist. Which in no way means that I lack a moral compass. No matter what Fox News tells you, I am not a Godless communist. I am an American.

Last edited by Ericb760; 07-09-2013 at 7:38 PM..
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  #132  
Old 07-09-2013, 8:46 PM
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OP, I'm a liberal gun rights advocate. I'm an old school liberal. Not the controlling Democrats of today. To bad we are all lumped together. I think there are a lot of good republicans here old school too... I am pro gay marriage (Why? Cause if you want to get ****ed in the *** who am I to stop you...) I'm pro separation of church and stated because WTF church is the state suppose to be? Hopefully not islam or southern baptist. Just Sayin' I'm pro-choice because as my mom used to say, Every time I ****ed up, which was often. I brought you into this word I'll take you out... Her choice. Yes, You should be able to spank your kid. We are on here. Just voice your opinion especially on Gun Rights... I have a lot of friends who are Democrats and pro gun rights mostly because of me.

If you really want to freak out the republican's remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. was a republican. lol... Just Sayin' The Party is crumbling.... My mom is a republican because that was the party the help immigrants back in the 70s that believed in what Liberty stood for.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Yes, My mom was an illegal immigrant and is proud to say her 1st vote after getting her citizenship was for Ronald Reagan.

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  #133  
Old 07-09-2013, 9:21 PM
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OP, I'm a liberal gun rights advocate. I'm an old school liberal. Not the controlling Democrats of today. To bad we are all lumped together. I think there are a lot of good republicans here old school too... I am pro gay marriage (Why? Cause if you want to get ****ed in the *** who am I to stop you...) I'm pro separation of church and stated because WTF church is the state suppose to be? Hopefully not islam or southern baptist. Just Sayin' I'm pro-choice because as my mom used to say, Every time I ****ed up, which was often. I brought you into this word I'll take you out... Her choice. Yes, You should be able to spank your kid. We are on here. Just voice your opinion especially on Gun Rights... I have a lot of friends who are Democrats and pro gun rights mostly because of me.

If you really want to freak out the republican's remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. was a republican. lol... Just Sayin' The Party is crumbling.... My mom is a republican because that was the party the help immigrants back in the 70s that believed in what Liberty stood for.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Yes, My mom was an illegal immigrant and is proud to say her 1st vote after getting her citizenship was for Ronald Reagan.
One grandmother was a 1920's legal migrant worker form Juarez, Mexico (when we still had a manageable and sane immigration policy). My other grandmother was an ILLEGAL white immigrant from South Africa by way of an ILLEGAL border crossing from Canada. No one ever questioned her status, but I remember trips to Tijuana where La Imigra hassled my grandmother because the kids in the back seat looked to "white" to be related to her. I remember hanging my head out the window and rattling off in Espanol that I was a "Mestizo Americano", and being waved through.....Ah, those were some good times...

Last edited by Ericb760; 07-09-2013 at 9:26 PM..
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  #134  
Old 07-09-2013, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericb760 View Post
I think that we can both agree that the definition of "progressive" in 1900 has little to do with it's meaning today in the world of social media. Much like "Republican" in 1850 has no real correlation with "Republican" today. Look at how the roles for both parties have changed in the South in just the last 50 years. That's why I say that it's just a label. And FYI, I do happen to be an Atheist. Which in no way means that I lack a moral compass. No matter what Fox News tells you, I am not a Godless communist. I am an American.

Fox News eh? lmao...ok. You won't hear me saying you can't have a moral compass if you are an atheist. Morality can be imparted different ways. How some one is raised, or what peer pressures exerted while growing up in school/college, or innate behavior or the society in general all influence. So an atheist as well as anyone else can have a moral compass.

The meaning of progressive still holds, one who wants to "progress" society to a form other than what it is currently. Just the goals are changed or different today. "Global warming" or "Social Justice" to name a couple. Of course it goes without saying, depending who you are talking to, 1 issue will eclipse another of the many varied issues there are. People will always argue like cats and dogs, not necessarily from human nature but different perspectives, right?
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  #135  
Old 07-09-2013, 9:40 PM
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People will always argue like cats and dogs, not necessarily from human nature but different perspectives, right?
It certainly makes life more entertaining. I don't look for conflict anymore (I'm divorced), but it can be fun arguing on the interwebs, though it's a lot like masturbation, mildly pleasing while you're doing it, but a bit of a let down when you're done.
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  #136  
Old 07-09-2013, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by YZFNYC View Post
If you really want to freak out the republican's remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. was a republican. lol... Just Sayin'


Funny, I use that line to freak out libs.
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  #137  
Old 07-09-2013, 10:09 PM
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It certainly makes life more entertaining. I don't look for conflict anymore (I'm divorced), but it can be fun arguing on the interwebs, though it's a lot like masturbation, mildly pleasing while you're doing it, but a bit of a let down when you're done.
See, common ground. Big tent 2A is, just get your progressive buddies to see the light and get your hand off my money.
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"...which from their verbosity, their endless tautologies, their involutions of case within case, and parenthesis within parenthesis, and their multiplied efforts at certainty by saids and aforesaids, by ors and by ands, to make them more plain, do really render them more perplexed and incomprehensible, not only to common readers, but to lawyers themselves. " - Thomas Jefferson
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  #138  
Old 07-10-2013, 12:32 PM
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This thread is entertaining and sad at the same time. Republican or Democrat if those are the only two choices for people on this site we are royally screwed.

Vote dem and give up the second amendment. Vote republican and you give up on 4 and 6. Either way we are still in a police state.

Sad that this site is so conservative that they don't see how they are also helping to erode our rights.

Freedom means freedom, if I am not hurting you what I do is none of your or the governments business. I am pro-choice, pro-gun, pro-gay, pro-biggulp, pro-drug, pro alcohol and pro any thing else that allows people to live the way they want to live.

If you wish to push your way of life on anyone conservative ideals or progressive you are the problem and are against freedom.

To each their own my friends
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  #139  
Old 07-10-2013, 1:46 PM
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Nope. I'm an athiest who doesn't believe in the feeedom of speech or religion. In fact, I don't believe in the 2nd Amendment either. Guns and loud noises scare me.

I'm only here to mock the right wing tin foil hat wearing anti-government racist baby killing gun owners.

Is that the response you're looking for? I sure hope so. Maybe now you can sleep tonight.

LMAO, thanks for the laugh, I keep making loud noises in hopes I one day get over cringing.




I am a 60 year old woman and a natural born American citizen.

I believe in our forefathers way of doing things. Live and let live and stay the heck out of my business. Separate the Church from the State etc.

If 'I ain't hurtin' nobody don't %$@!(self moderated) with me!'
Otherwise known as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
It seems nowadays politicians are more liars and bigots than ever before.

Take two steps forward and three back!
Don't we live in the 21st Century fer goshsakes!?!?!

(Note: no where did I say what party I belong to)

Last edited by LittleOldLady; 07-10-2013 at 1:52 PM..
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  #140  
Old 07-11-2013, 11:29 AM
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This thread is entertaining and sad at the same time. Republican or Democrat if those are the only two choices for people on this site we are royally screwed.

Vote dem and give up the second amendment. Vote republican and you give up on 4 and 6. Either way we are still in a police state.

Sad that this site is so conservative that they don't see how they are also helping to erode our rights.

Freedom means freedom, if I am not hurting you what I do is none of your or the governments business. I am pro-choice, pro-gun, pro-gay, pro-biggulp, pro-drug, pro alcohol and pro any thing else that allows people to live the way they want to live.

If you wish to push your way of life on anyone conservative ideals or progressive you are the problem and are against freedom.

To each their own my friends
^ This

Respect for the rights of others is what we demand from our government and politicians, and it is what we should practice ourselves.
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  #141  
Old 07-11-2013, 8:29 PM
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Welcome aboard Eric.

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Originally Posted by Brujo View Post
Freedom means freedom, if I am not hurting you what I do is none of your or the governments business. I am pro-choice, pro-gun, pro-gay, pro-biggulp, pro-drug, pro alcohol and pro any thing else that allows people to live the way they want to live.
If you wish to push your way of life on anyone conservative ideals or progressive you are the problem and are against freedom.
Perfect.....
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  #142  
Old 07-11-2013, 8:37 PM
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Not sure how you can possibly accept government intervention in everything else - Just not when it comes to your gun rights.

Good luck with that.

Bottom line - Tyrants are on the left and the right.

When the government boot is on your throat -

Does it really matter if it's the left boot or the right boot.

Progressive - Statist - Liberal - Communist - Socialist - Conservative.

Same crap - Different methods.

What our Country needs is a return to CONSTITUTIONAL leadership.

Not more bullcrap rhetoric sheep regurgitating the meaningless rhetoric spewed from political hacks.

Or maybe I'm just a pissed off a-hole grunt...
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  #143  
Old 07-12-2013, 5:21 AM
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Not sure how you can possibly accept government intervention in everything else - Just not when it comes to your gun rights.

Good luck with that.

Bottom line - Tyrants are on the left and the right.

When the government boot is on your throat -

Does it really matter if it's the left boot or the right boot.

Progressive - Statist - Liberal - Communist - Socialist - Conservative.

Same crap - Different methods.

What our Country needs is a return to CONSTITUTIONAL leadership.

Not more bullcrap rhetoric sheep regurgitating the meaningless rhetoric spewed from political hacks.

Or maybe I'm just a pissed off a-hole grunt...

Pretty much what I said!
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  #144  
Old 07-12-2013, 5:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Brujo View Post
Freedom means freedom, if I am not hurting you what I do is none of your or the governments business. I am pro-choice, pro-gun, pro-gay, pro-biggulp, pro-drug, pro alcohol and pro any thing else that allows people to live the way they want to live.
Yup.
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  #145  
Old 07-12-2013, 8:40 AM
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^^ Can I get an Amen if it doesn't offend anyone?
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  #146  
Old 07-12-2013, 8:41 AM
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^^ Can I get an Amen if it doesn't offend anyone?
Amen! (and I'm an atheist )
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  #147  
Old 07-12-2013, 9:43 AM
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Praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Amen!
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  #148  
Old 07-12-2013, 12:28 PM
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Praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Amen!
I believe that the proper praise is "Ramen"!
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  #149  
Old 07-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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I appreciate all of the information that this site has provided me. However, it is obvious that a good portion of posters here would be considered Conservative in their political beliefs. While I appreciate those views, the fact remains that I am politically a Progressive, a typically Californian Leftist if you will, although I differ with the average Democrat on 2A issues. I am an Air Force Veteran, a believer in the first amendment as it pertains to the separation of church and state, an avid supporter of the 2nd Amendment, a gun owner, a father, and a patriot. It would be nice to communicate with likewise progressives that share my support of the 2nd Amendment. I know from talking to people that there are a lot more of us than the right wing would suggest. So, my suggestion would be for a forum dedicated to us on the Left, so that we can join the discussion on how best to preserve our 2A rights.

Keep on voting for the left wing politicians who are controlling the Democrat Party, or...
...or please pay a visit to your local police station and voluntarily surrender all your guns.
It's the same thing, only a little bit faster.
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Old 07-12-2013, 3:02 PM
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Hmmm....there seems to be a lack of understanding of the difference between a progressive and a libertarian.
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"...which from their verbosity, their endless tautologies, their involutions of case within case, and parenthesis within parenthesis, and their multiplied efforts at certainty by saids and aforesaids, by ors and by ands, to make them more plain, do really render them more perplexed and incomprehensible, not only to common readers, but to lawyers themselves. " - Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by SWalt; 07-12-2013 at 3:07 PM..
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  #151  
Old 07-12-2013, 3:57 PM
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People should vote on what's important to them, and vote for who is willing to stand up for what is important to them. I don't agree with all the ideas of the people I have voted for, but I chose the ones that would represent what are priorities to me and my family. The democrats in California and those that vote for them are responsible for their actions. If th OP chooses to vote for democrats that are antigun ( following the party line) he has no one to blame but himself and those like him. If the 2nd amendment is your priority, you would note vote for those that erode it on a consistent basis. Just realize that it is the 2nd amendment that gives us the ability to protect and defend our other rights from tyranny and those that would try to take those rights from us.
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  #152  
Old 07-12-2013, 7:21 PM
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I'm itching to say something here but I can't find the words - Oh, here it comes. Good luck OP. You'd probably be better off giving yourself an enema and just forgetting about the whole thing.
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  #153  
Old 07-12-2013, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
This nonsense again?

Care to answer POLCIESTATE's question about your actual views on 2a and anti 2a laws?

And the guy resorts to namecalling, specifically referring to others as "childish" because they won't do what he tells them to, go figure

typical lib way, see my viewpoint or your a childish idiot. facts are facts if you vote for anti 2nd people, then the 2nd is not high on your priority list,plain and simple.none of your intellectual grand standing can change this fact.
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  #154  
Old 07-12-2013, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by arsilva32 View Post
typical lib way, see my viewpoint or your a childish idiot. facts are facts if you vote for anti 2nd people, then the 2nd is not high on your priority list,plain and simple.none of your intellectual grand standing can change this fact.
Apparently you missed the post where I said I did not vote for a sitting California politician.
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  #155  
Old 07-13-2013, 6:51 AM
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Apparently you missed the post where I said I did not vote for a sitting California politician.
You also said in post 107 that Republicans were the elected officials in your area and in 112 that you would never vote republican due to the stench on the right. This sounds to me like you have voted for anti 2a elements but they did not get elected. Maybe the Dems you voted for were for 2a rights? I am not really trying to bust your chops, but I keep seeing apparent disconnects in your dialogue and am not sure you have made the connection between your voting habits and the problems (including 2a erosion) in California. It does sound like you (and some of your friends) are getting there, but have not turned the corner yet. How many more rights will you have to lose before you vote differently? The Dems and Reps are not the only choices.

Last edited by toro1; 07-13-2013 at 8:33 AM.. Reason: Clarification
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  #156  
Old 07-13-2013, 8:21 AM
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Define "Conservative"? I am conservative is terms of Economics (example: continued borrowing leads to bankruptcy) but socially Liberal, (example: do what ever you wish as long as you do infringe of my Natural and Civil Rights). Your use of the word "Conservative" is a wide swath and way to convenient to be relevant.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericb760 View Post
That's a pretty broad question. And labels are just that, labels. I identify as a "progressive" simply because it's the easiest way to discern me from a "conservative". On the hot button issues (with the exception of 2A) I side mostly with the Democratic Plank.
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  #157  
Old 07-20-2013, 9:10 AM
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I believe that it is a good thing to have rules when it comes to definitions of terms and labels. A good rule book in this regard is the Dictionary.

When I open my Dictionary to the word Liberal the first entry is as follows:

1) Broad-minded tolerant of different views and standards of behavior in others.

For Conservative:

1) Reluctant to accept change in favor of preserving the status quo and traditional values and customs, and against abrupt change.

For Progressive:

1) Progressing gradually over a period of time. (the root word here is progress)

I would remind those (both right and left) who disagree with the above that the Constitution is not, and never has been, a conservative document. It would follow, therefore, that the right to bear arms is not, automatically, a conservative virtue.

By the same token, the forces that opposed the creation of the Constitution and The Bill of Rights were not Liberal in their mentality.

Before the gnashing of teeth on the right begins - Liberals, for the most part, are just as silly as conservatives when it comes to clarity on this subject.
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  #158  
Old 08-09-2013, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericb760 View Post
I'm sorry, but this is nothing more than a Fox News talking point that has no basis in reality. The vast majority of Americans recieving direct Federal Aid vote Republican, and it's been that way for decades. If you look at a California voting map the entire coast is painted blue with pockets of red further inward. Who can afford to live on the coast? Minorities with their EBT cards? Hardly. Those wealthy enough to live along the coast don't vote Democrat because the government is supporting them.
You have never been to LA, that's th bigest blue dot on the map.
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  #159  
Old 08-09-2013, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
You have never been to LA, that's th bigest blue dot on the map.
"dot" LOL.

why the heck is this thread in the "announcement" forum?
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  #160  
Old 08-09-2013, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
"dot" LOL.

why the heck is this thread in the "announcement" forum?
Huh.....didn't notice. Perhaps CGN is trying to be fair to all political persuasions. If its in OT, then no outsider can see it?
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"...which from their verbosity, their endless tautologies, their involutions of case within case, and parenthesis within parenthesis, and their multiplied efforts at certainty by saids and aforesaids, by ors and by ands, to make them more plain, do really render them more perplexed and incomprehensible, not only to common readers, but to lawyers themselves. " - Thomas Jefferson
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