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  #1  
Old 07-13-2013, 10:55 PM
booga booga is offline
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Default Magazine comes loose by wiggling it without pressing the mag button

The PMAG M2 magazine comes out by simply wiggling the magazine.
This is without pressing the button to release the magazine.
I have a 2nd PMAG M3, which does not come out with any amount of wiggling.
I dropped by at local gun shop and tested with a metal mag (unknown brand) and the mag also did not wiggle out.

Lower receiver: 80percentarms.com
The button : Raddlock button set at the CA legal position and not so legal position.
Lower Parts kit: Palmetto State Armory MOE LPK


MAGPUL M3 PMAG 10rd-MAG .223/5.56mm (pictured in front)
Magpul PMAG M2 MOE 10 Round 30 Body Magazine .223/5.56mm (pictured in background)
* Note the fraction of a millimeter "step" above the notch where the mag catch holds the magazine in place.





I understand there are some differences in design between M2 and M3. It is obvious from the above pictures.

The "step" is a fraction of a millimeter. May not be enough to make a difference.

Then I had this bright idea that if I bend the mag catch a little to move the magcatch closer to the magazine by a fraction of a millimeter this problem is solved. Some of you reading this at this point are already saying not to do it. Yes - I did. I found out why not to do it. The metal used is not the "bendy" type.

Mag catch broken piece
The best picture that I can take at night with fluorescent lighting
Please take the time to look at the picture. My observation with my deteriorating eye sight tells me that the left side is lower than the right.
Is this out of spec? What is the spec measurement for the mag catch?


I have not ruled out that the lower receiver itself might be out of spec, but The step and the mag catch difference adds up to close to a millimeter. That's a big difference.

Mag catch broken piece installed
* Note that my OCD is VERY agitated at this time. The stores are ALL closed at the time of composing this post. Between now and at the time the doors open at the local shop, I may even venture out to get some ice cream.

Last edited by booga; 07-14-2013 at 12:30 AM..
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  #2  
Old 07-13-2013, 11:31 PM
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Questions?
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  #3  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SB1964 View Post
Questions?

Haha - Maybe it is late and I should make this post in question form.

1. What is the mag catch specs?

2. Is the addition of the "step" on the PMAG M3 as a result of a similar issue?

3. unknown - I should have more questions. But I can't think of any more at this time.

Thank you.
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  #4  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:52 AM
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Sarcasm, sorry.

Not sure what the specs are on the catch. You'll have to figure out how to remove the existing part, possibly by loosening the allen screw, if it has one. If it doesn't you'll prolly need the bullet button tool. Riflegear has the tool/parts.

The angle of the 2 "steps" may look different, but they should be close to the same height. That's mostly what matters & that they lock/release properly.

You had the "wiggle" issue most likely due to the part being cracked. Adjust the new catch so when you depress the catch (BB) the left side of the catch (what's now missing in your pic) is level with the raised area of the lower. This should be close.
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Last edited by SB1964; 07-14-2013 at 12:56 AM..
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  #5  
Old 07-14-2013, 1:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SB1964 View Post
Sarcasm, sorry.

Not sure what the specs are on the catch. You'll have to figure out how to remove the existing part, possibly by loosening the allen screw, if it has one. If it doesn't you'll prolly need the bullet button tool. Riflegear has the tool/parts.

The angle of the 2 "steps" may look different, but they should be close to the same height. That's mostly what matters & that they lock/release properly.

You had the "wiggle" issue most likely due to the part being cracked. Adjust the new catch so when you depress the catch (BB) the left side of the catch (what's now missing in your pic) is level with the raised area of the lower. This should be close.
Not at all a problem with removing the Raddlock. I cracked it in half trying to "solve" the issue. I pounded on the mag catch while it was not installed on the lower receiver. My problem solving approach did not turn out the way I imagined it. I installed it back on the lower receiver cracked in half just to take pictures.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2013, 11:56 AM
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The billet lower receiver is out of spec in the mag catch area. The catch is not seating deep enough in the receiver.
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2013, 2:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ott1 View Post
The billet lower receiver is out of spec in the mag catch area. The catch is not seating deep enough in the receiver.
How exactly did you come to that conclusion? He said he tried 2 other mags and they worked. That doesn't suggest an out-of-spec receiver to me. It could just be a bad mag.

A few questions:

Is your Gen2 blocked to hold 10 rounds?

Do you have the same problem with the mag empty and fully loaded?

Do you have the same problem when inserting it with the bolt open and closed?
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Old 07-14-2013, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ott1 View Post
The billet lower receiver is out of spec in the mag catch area. The catch is not seating deep enough in the receiver.
I would check this first also. There have been some 80% that were not machined deep enough in the mag catch lever area. If you have another AR start measuring. Also look inside the mag well to see how for the catch is exposed and compare to another AR .
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2013, 4:00 PM
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I have seen lowers from 80% arms that had this problem. The slot may indeed be a hair shallow. An easy fix is to remove the mag catch and file it down just a tad. Works like a charm. Been there, done that.
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2013, 5:33 PM
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make sure you get the bullet button as tight as you can, was out today and had 2 new rifles doing the same thing.
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  #11  
Old 07-14-2013, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason25 View Post
I have seen lowers from 80% arms that had this problem. The slot may indeed be a hair shallow. An easy fix is to remove the mag catch and file it down just a tad. Works like a charm. Been there, done that.
At first I wanted to believe it to be an out of spec Mag catch, partly because it is a cheap & easy fix, and from the picture above you will see that there is a difference in height between the two sides of the mag catch.

My easy fix attempt was to try to bend it. It does not bend - I find this out on the first whack at it. The filing idea sounds good, I will try it. What part of the mag catch did you file down? I'm sure I can take a look at it and find this out for myself. But your answer will give me something to think about until I have the AR with me.

A co-worker purchased a lower at the same time I did from 80% Arms. I will check with him to see if he has the same issue. If so, then this will be brought up with 80% Arms.

I will try your suggestion to file the mag catch down, making the mag catch itself out of spec by a hair. If it works, I am OK with that.

Q&A
Q1 -
Code:
Is your Gen2 blocked to hold 10 rounds?
Yes, my M2 pictured above is blocked to hold 10 rounds.
I also have two 30 rnd rebuild kits which also have the same issue.

Q2 -
Code:
Do you have the same problem with the mag empty and fully loaded?
The issue exists when the mag is loaded and empty. (see Q3 for more)

Q3 -
Code:
Do you have the same problem when inserting it with the bolt open and closed?
With bolt open, the mag does lock in place, but does have the issue with ejecting when wiggled.
With bolt closed, the mag is unable to lock in place at all

Last edited by booga; 07-14-2013 at 6:17 PM..
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2013, 6:56 PM
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Whats Funny(Not Really), is I am having the same Problem, But only Flipped! My Gen2 P-mags slide in, lock, and release with No Problems.
I just Bought (2) New Gen3 P-mags and Neither one with Slide in and Actually lock into place. After Careful side by side comparison I have noticed that the catch is in different locations from G2 & G3 P-Pags. I have NO idea why they did this.... Maybe to fit other Gun Platforms?? All I know is, I have (2) Brand New G3 P-mags that will Probably be for sale SOOOON!
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Last edited by Wicked One; 07-14-2013 at 6:59 PM..
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  #13  
Old 07-14-2013, 11:17 PM
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I went to Riflegear earlier and got a new Magazine catch to replace the broken one.
The mag catch does not protrude into the magwell by much compared to other pictures that I have seen online.

If I could get a mag catch that is 1mm longer it would solve my problem. I guess it is easier to work on the mag catch compared to milling the lower receiver.


Last edited by booga; 07-15-2013 at 2:17 AM.. Reason: * new magazine catch still has the same problem.
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  #14  
Old 07-15-2013, 12:39 AM
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Loaded, blocked pmags won't lock in when the bolt is closed. That's why I asked some of those questions. I thought that might be your problem.

Is that a new mag catch installed in the picture above? If so, you are correct that it doesn't look like it's protruding into the mag well far enough. If it's the old one just put in for the picture, then maybe it's your mag catch that's out-of-spec. You need to measure the depth of the mag catch pocket to make sure.

You could also call up your local gun shop and see if they carry AR10 mag catches. They're curved a little and protrude further into the mag well than the AR15 ones. If they do, take your lower and mags there and ask if they'll let you try one to see if it fixes your problem.
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  #15  
Old 07-15-2013, 2:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwbyo1 View Post
Is that a new mag catch installed in the picture above?

You could also call up your local gun shop and see if they carry AR10 mag catches. They're curved a little and protrude further into the mag well than the AR15 ones. If they do, take your lower and mags there and ask if they'll let you try one to see if it fixes your problem.
That is a NEW mag catch in the above picture showing the mag catch from inside the mag well.

I will try AR10 Magazine catch tomorrow if I get the chance.

Last edited by booga; 07-15-2013 at 12:02 PM..
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  #16  
Old 07-15-2013, 4:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwbyo1 View Post
Loaded, blocked pmags won't lock in when the bolt is closed.
Huh? All of My Magpul 10/30 Blocked G2 P-mags, Fully loaded (10rds) will lock into place in any Bolt configuration. Now the G3's are a different story/Problem with my Platform! I cant get these damn things to Work/Lock into Mag Well PERIOD!
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  #17  
Old 07-15-2013, 4:38 AM
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My GunVault's Magvault has always pressed HARD against the latch and I have been fearful of bending it.
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  #18  
Old 07-15-2013, 6:11 AM
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YMMV since I've got only 100% receivers cut long before the 80% phenomenon took off. The distance that catch intrudes into the magwell is determined by how tight you spin it on with the release (or bullet button) fully depressed, while pushing on the release allows the magazine to slide past it unless you've tightened it too much. The step in the catch bar should fit with some margin for error inside the magazine body cutout, while the rest of the catch bar should be just touching the side of the magazine to take up the slack and prevent rattle. The intruding part of the catch bar is pushed aside by the rounded over feed lips, though the rest can be pushed aside as well so "too tight" is really only when you can't get it to release the magazine.
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  #19  
Old 07-15-2013, 9:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booga View Post
At first I wanted to believe it to be an out of spec Mag catch, partly because it is a cheap & easy fix, and from the picture above you will see that there is a difference in height between the two sides of the mag catch.

My easy fix attempt was to try to bend it. It does not bend - I find this out on the first whack at it. The filing idea sounds good, I will try it. What part of the mag catch did you file down? I'm sure I can take a look at it and find this out for myself. But your answer will give me something to think about until I have the AR with me.

A co-worker purchased a lower at the same time I did from 80% Arms. I will check with him to see if he has the same issue. If so, then this will be brought up with 80% Arms.

I will try your suggestion to file the mag catch down, making the mag catch itself out of spec by a hair. If it works, I am OK with that.

Q&A
Q1 -
Code:
Is your Gen2 blocked to hold 10 rounds?
Yes, my M2 pictured above is blocked to hold 10 rounds.
I also have two 30 rnd rebuild kits which also have the same issue.

Q2 -
Code:
Do you have the same problem with the mag empty and fully loaded?
The issue exists when the mag is loaded and empty. (see Q3 for more)

Q3 -
Code:
Do you have the same problem when inserting it with the bolt open and closed?
With bolt open, the mag does lock in place, but does have the issue with ejecting when wiggled.
With bolt closed, the mag is unable to lock in place at all
File down the portion of the catch that comes into contact with the slot. It is a little time consuming, but with proper care and patience, you can get it to properly hold the mag in place. Or take your lower and have the slot fixed.
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  #20  
Old 07-15-2013, 9:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason25 View Post
File down the portion of the catch that comes into contact with the slot. It is a little time consuming, but with proper care and patience, you can get it to properly hold the mag in place. Or take your lower and have the slot fixed.
Better to get the slot fixed in my book. Addressing the issue at the source is always the best thing to do. Everything else is a band aid waiting to drop off.
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  #21  
Old 07-15-2013, 9:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milw50717 View Post
Better to get the slot fixed in my book. Addressing the issue at the source is always the best thing to do. Everything else is a band aid waiting to drop off.
I agree with getting the slot fixed as superior. However taking a millimeter off of the catch isn't gonna compromise its function. May not be feasible for the OP to take the lower to get fixed. Just an option
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  #22  
Old 07-15-2013, 10:12 AM
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To address some of the things brought up in this thread:

1) Our lowers do not have a problem with magazines dropping free. To date, we've replaced 5 lowers with this issue out of many thousands sold. 1 out of every 1,000 is an extremely low rate of defects. The few that were replaced all came from the same batch about 6 months ago. We have not had a single report of this issue on any lower was manufactured in the past 6 months.

2) This problem could likely be due to the magazine, as it sounds like every other magazine works except one. It could also be due to the mag catch being out of spec.

3) If there is a problem with the lower, we'd be happy to take a look at it if you are able to come by our office. If not, please give us a call and we can trouble shoot it over the phone. If it does look like it's an issue with the lower, we will replace it. All of our lowers are covered by a lifetime warranty.
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  #23  
Old 07-15-2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked One View Post
Huh? All of My Magpul 10/30 Blocked G2 P-mags, Fully loaded (10rds) will lock into place in any Bolt configuration. Now the G3's are a different story/Problem with my Platform! I cant get these damn things to Work/Lock into Mag Well PERIOD!
All the blocked mags I've seen won't seat with the bolt closed. If yours do, that's great. But I'd check them to make sure you can't get an 11th round in there.
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Old 07-15-2013, 2:33 PM
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i measured the slot on my two of lowers. one is another mfg lower and the other a regular stripped lower. one slot measured .1675 and the other .167.
measure yours and you can at least eliminate this if its ok. pics attached.
i also have my mag catch adjusted so that it extends further into the magwell. it may just need to be adjusted.

80% Arms, just trying to help out a fellow calguner. not bashing.
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File Type: jpg IMG_1248.JPG (41.3 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1249.JPG (29.7 KB, 14 views)
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  #25  
Old 07-15-2013, 2:33 PM
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magwell pic
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Old 07-15-2013, 4:09 PM
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80% Arms,

First - Thank you for chiming in on this forum. I know you are trying to help. I responded to the e-mail you sent earlier.
What time is the office open?

As Baih777 indicated - not at all bashing. I have it posted here in gunsmith and how to in the attempt to get some help. In the beginning of the post I was looking at the mag and the mag catch as the possible reason for the issue.

Today I tested the following:
A co-worker with the same 80% Arms lower receiver - NOT experiencing the issue I have described here.
- Test my M2 PMAG with his lower. Mag stays and does not come loose.
- Swap mag catch from his lower to mine. Issue persists, ruling out both the mag and the mag catch.

The pictures below illustrate the difference of almost 1 mm .

My Co-workers AR lower - NO ISSUE


My AR lower with my 2nd Mag Catch - ISSUE


My AR lower with co-workers mag catch installed on my lower - ISSUE


Note that in both pictures of my Magwell the mag catch is almost 1 mm shallow compared to my co-workers AR lower. This explains why the PMAG M3 working on my lower since there is a small "step" at the top of the mag catch notch on the M3.

I have ordered another magazine catch which I will file down suggested by Jason25 earlier in this thread. Although I believe the receiver can be milled where the mag catch is seated to allow for the 1mm reach.

I have a couple of 30 rnd rebuild kits which I will check to see if I observe the same issue lwbyo1 posted about Mags not locking in place if it is a 10 rnd limited mag.

Last edited by booga; 07-15-2013 at 4:33 PM.. Reason: add words
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Old 07-15-2013, 4:24 PM
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If you've ruled out mag catch and mag, then like I've said in post #6, it's the receiver.
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Old 07-15-2013, 6:34 PM
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I'll be interested in the solution as I have completed 2 80% Arms lowers. Using the same LPK, one holds every mag and the other doesn't hold certain GI mags but holds the plastic Thermold and stainless ASC mags just fine.
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Old 07-15-2013, 8:29 PM
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sfhondapilot,

I encourage you to contact 80% arms,if you determine that the issue is with the lower. Of course you will still go through the process of ellimination which you will find that I have gone through here. In my case it has come down to the lower as the issue.

I have gone over my options with Tilden, and I am VERY impressed with the customer service that 80% Arms has extended.

Last edited by booga; 07-16-2013 at 10:22 AM.. Reason: spelling error "e"
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Old 07-15-2013, 8:47 PM
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My AR magwells all look pretty much the same as in post #25, while IMO those in #26 don't have the release spun on tight enough. Look towards the trigger and you'll see lots of gap where the release bar can be pulled in tighter -- you don't necessarily need to make that gap disappear but it's cut out there for a reason.
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Old 07-16-2013, 5:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booga View Post
sfhondapilot,

I encourage you to contact 80% arms,if you determine that the issue is with the lower. Of course you will still go through the process of illimination which you will find that I have gone through here. In my case it has come down to the lower as the issue.

I have gone over my options with Tilden, and I am VERY impressed with the customer service that 80% Arms has extended.
Thanks

Unfortunately, I am in Northern California so I am not sure how much they are going to be able to help me without having the lower in person.

I have a few other that I have not installed the LPK on. I will probably see if the others are problem free.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhondapilot View Post
Thanks

Unfortunately, I am in Northern California so I am not sure how much they are going to be able to help me without having the lower in person.

I have a few other that I have not installed the LPK on. I will probably see if the others are problem free.
If you have gone through troubleshooting and done the process of ellimination by swapping working parts between lowers. I don't think being in North Cali will be much of a problem.

Last edited by booga; 07-17-2013 at 5:11 PM..
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Old 07-19-2013, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sfhondapilot View Post
Thanks

Unfortunately, I am in Northern California so I am not sure how much they are going to be able to help me without having the lower in person.

I have a few other that I have not installed the LPK on. I will probably see if the others are problem free.
If you think your lower is defective, please contact us and we will definitely resolve the issue in a manner that leaves you 110% happy. Our customers are spread out all over the place and you don't have to be local in order for us to help you. Our lifetime warranty applies no matter where you are.

I had the pleasure of meeting Booga in person today and we got this worked out to his satisfaction.
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  #34  
Old 07-19-2013, 7:41 PM
sfhondapilot sfhondapilot is offline
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Originally Posted by 80% Arms View Post


I had the pleasure of meeting Booga in person today and we got this worked out to his satisfaction.
Were you able to modify Booga's finished lower so that the mag catch worked or did you simply replace the lower? I am not adverse to tinkering but didn't want to do it blindly. If you have a few suggestions on what I could attempt, I am more than willing to give it a try.

Thanks
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  #35  
Old 07-22-2013, 2:08 PM
booga booga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhondapilot View Post
Were you able to modify Booga's finished lower so that the mag catch worked or did you simply replace the lower? I am not adverse to tinkering but didn't want to do it blindly. If you have a few suggestions on what I could attempt, I am more than willing to give it a try.

Thanks
sfhondapilot,

When I met with Tilden, I asked him to add to this thread to respond to your post. He may not be subscribed to this post therefore not getting notification of your last post.

Give him a call.

Last edited by booga; 07-22-2013 at 2:28 PM..
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