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  #1  
Old 07-11-2013, 8:48 PM
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Default Help with banned saiga rebuild "Bolt Guide Rivet"

I'm trying to help a member rebuild a demilled banned saiga and the bump rivet or bolt guide rivet was demilled. I know he needs a bullet guide but does anyone have a tip on how to replicate the bump rivet?

Last edited by Jayruta; 07-12-2013 at 7:12 AM..
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Old 07-11-2013, 9:47 PM
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I dont know where you can get the bump rivet but this forum discusses the necessity of the bump rivet.: http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57492 it seems it's meant for preventing trigger slap, but youre gonna replace the trigger set with 922r compliant parts right?
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Old 07-11-2013, 9:48 PM
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Oooh... you mean that other rivet on the trunnion?
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:11 PM
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yup I guess its not a "Bump Rivet" its the "Extra Bolt Guide Rivet"... anyone know a work around or how to repleicate a demilled one to solve this issue? I was thinking of bypassing it completly and fitting a standard ak47 bullet guide.

Last edited by Jayruta; 07-11-2013 at 11:14 PM..
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Old 07-12-2013, 4:15 PM
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Anyone? I'm getting feedback from a lgs saying that the nub / extra rivet does nothing. We are rebuilding the saiga on a flat.
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Old 07-12-2013, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayruta View Post
I was thinking of bypassing it completly and fitting a standard ak47 bullet guide.
This is what I would look into. Might take some fine tuning. CNC Warroir has em and I've had to fit the "ramp" on all of em.
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Old 07-12-2013, 7:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayruta View Post
Anyone? I'm getting feedback from a lgs saying that the nub / extra rivet does nothing. We are rebuilding the saiga on a flat.
They are wrong. You need to use a military type bullet/bolt guide to get that gun to run correctly. That rivet is what get's the bolt to kick over into battery. If the rivet isn't there, then the guide needs to be.
Make sure to get the guide that matches your kit. They're caliber specific and are not interchangable.
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Old 07-12-2013, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by fredieusa View Post
You may be just able to install a guide.. Guides themselves can be made from various common objects like a cut pipe and such, just in case you are not able to get one at all.
A guide made from pipe will only work if the bump rivet is there. It is not, he needs the military style guide to kick the bolt into battery.

The area just past the forward most arrow is what the bump rivet replaces. The bump on the feed ramp needs to be there or the bolt will just slam into the chamber face and won't rotate into battery. Even if you made a ramp from pipe.

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Old 07-12-2013, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
A guide made from pipe will only work if the bump rivet is there. It is not, he needs the military style guide to kick the bolt into battery.

The area just past the forward most arrow is what the bump rivet replaces. The bump on the feed ramp needs to be there or the bolt will just slam into the chamber face and won't rotate into battery. Even if you made a ramp from pipe.
Using a rivet to start camming the bolt closed is ghetto.
How come the carrier won't cam the bolt closed?
Does the carrier just do the locking after the rivet cams the bolt into place?

On an AR, the bolt stops against the cartridge case head and the carrier continues, doing ALL the camming.
Is the AK not similar, or are you only talking about times where there is no cartridge being chambered that the bolt will not cam closed?

Seems like a proper machined feedramp is a WAY better option than using a ghetto rivet head...
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:56 PM
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Thanks SJ I knew my instincts were correct. However the builder is adamant that it will work without it.. Even after explaining its easier to install the bullet guide before it is riveted into the receiver.

Last edited by Jayruta; 07-13-2013 at 12:44 AM..
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  #11  
Old 07-12-2013, 11:02 PM
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Lgs has offered to install bullet guide if it dosen't work after the rebuild. I will help him rebuild the saiga and let the lgs tune it. Also what is with kalishnakov usa using a ghetto puddle weld as a bullet guide to accept regular ak mags.There was a nasty puddle weld on the bullet guide mounting surface. Seems like the ruskies got lazy.

Last edited by Jayruta; 07-13-2013 at 12:44 AM..
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  #12  
Old 07-12-2013, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Using a rivet to start camming the bolt closed is ghetto.
How come the carrier won't cam the bolt closed?
Does the carrier just do the locking after the rivet cams the bolt into place?

On an AR, the bolt stops against the cartridge case head and the carrier continues, doing ALL the camming.
Is the AK not similar, or are you only talking about times where there is no cartridge being chambered that the bolt will not cam closed?

Seems like a proper machined feedramp is a WAY better option than using a ghetto rivet head...
True, but the bump rivet is only used on the commercial guns. The Saigas are all modular, the same trunnion is used in 556, 762, and 545 guns, the difference is the rivet. Also if they use a standard feed ramp, they can't import those do to the military mag capability. If you look at the carrier there is a small flat in the camming groove. The bolt will hit that and not rotate, the rivet or that part of the feed ramp is what starts the rotation, the camming groove takes over from there into battery.

If he can get it to work I'll be very suprised. The full military rebuild I did on a Saiga needed the bullet guide to work. I removed the bump rivet and welded that hole up and installed a bullet guide while the trunnion was out.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Using a rivet to start camming the bolt closed is ghetto.
How come the carrier won't cam the bolt closed?
Does the carrier just do the locking after the rivet cams the bolt into place?

On an AR, the bolt stops against the cartridge case head and the carrier continues, doing ALL the camming.
Is the AK not similar, or are you only talking about times where there is no cartridge being chambered that the bolt will not cam closed?

Seems like a proper machined feedramp is a WAY better option than using a ghetto rivet head...

they figured hemm.... all the rivets we used on the stamped version ak,(aka ghetto ver. AK) whats one more ghetto rivet going to hurt

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
they can't import those do to the military mag capability.
SJ whats the military mag capability? i always thought a mag was a mag.or am i not understanding what your talking about
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Last edited by arsilva32; 07-13-2013 at 12:44 AM..
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  #14  
Old 07-13-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by arsilva32 View Post
they figured hemm.... all the rivets we used on the stamped version ak,(aka ghetto ver. AK) whats one more ghetto rivet going to hurt



SJ whats the military mag capability? i always thought a mag was a mag.or am i not understanding what your talking about
You cannot import a rifle that can feed from military magazines. That's why you need to install a bullet guide to get a Saiga to work with military mags. Think WASR's and the PAP rifles that are single stack as imported.
So the Russians delete the military feed ramps and ad the bump rivet to start the bolts rotation. Since the original question was will it work with out that rivet, the answer is no. It needs the bump rivet or a military feed ramp to start the rotation of the bolt.
If they just used a military style feed ramp they would be illegal to import.
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Last edited by SJgunguy24; 07-13-2013 at 11:55 AM..
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Old 07-14-2013, 9:26 PM
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Actually all the Russian "100 series" AK rifles all have the "bump" rivet instead of the traditional angled bolt camming surface attached to the bullet guide.....This included both the military production as well as the Saiga rifles...

In addition ALL the 5.45 Saiga rifles accept standard capacity magazines without modification......They do lack the bullet guide, however they still function pretty well without it.
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Old 07-16-2013, 8:38 PM
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Actually all the Russian "100 series" AK rifles all have the "bump" rivet instead of the traditional angled bolt camming surface attached to the bullet guide.....This included both the military production as well as the Saiga rifles...

You sure about that? All the reaserch i've done indicates that military guns get military feed ramps and all lack the bump rivet.

In addition ALL the 5.45 Saiga rifles accept standard capacity magazines without modification......They do lack the bullet guide, however they still function pretty well without it.
They will not feed a full 30 round mag without the guide. The last 3-4 rounds won't shoot up high enough to feed. While worlds better then the 762 mag fit up, if they fed every round reliably the ATF would shut them down.
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Old 07-17-2013, 4:56 PM
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Well I base my opinion as to the "bump rivet" being a "military" feature on the information in the book "The Grim Reaper".....

The information regarding the function of the 5.45 Saiga without a bullet guide is based on my own experience... I had no failures to feed or extract while using standard AK-74 mags.... I did though install the bullet guides as I'm a believer in making the rifles as close to factory stock as possible....

It lists the bump rivet as being incorporated into the AK-74m in 1991, and has been a standard feature up to today including the AK-108....

A few scans from that book...





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Old 08-04-2014, 7:35 AM
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ok, so I'm using a SAIGA 762 front trunnion since it has a bump rivet...why can't I just use a AK74 front trunnion and a 762x39 Russian bullet guide
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Old 08-04-2014, 8:47 AM
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ok, so I'm using a SAIGA 762 front trunnion since it has a bump rivet...why can't I just use a AK74 front trunnion and a 762x39 Russian bullet guide
22mm bore vs 23mm bore?
Short lugs vs long lugs?

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77988
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Old 08-04-2014, 8:55 AM
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22mm trunnion

long stem bolt from kvar like the SAIGAS
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Old 08-04-2014, 9:06 AM
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Originally Posted by hellayella View Post
22mm trunnion

long stem bolt from kvar like the SAIGAS
There are long and short LUGS and there are small and large STEMS.
If you had all saiga type parts, they work together, but a 74 trunion will not be cut to fit 7.62 mags.

Round or flat bottom bullet guide cut?
I have cut round bottom trunions to take a flat bottom bullet guide.
The underside of a 74 trunion can be milled out for 7.62 magazine clearance.
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Old 08-04-2014, 9:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
There are long and short LUGS and there are small and large STEMS.
If you had all saiga type parts, they work together, but a 74 trunion will not be cut to fit 7.62 mags.

Round or flat bottom bullet guide cut?
I have cut round bottom trunions to take a flat bottom bullet guide.
The underside of a 74 trunion can be milled out for 7.62 magazine clearance.
I have SAIGA style bolt, carrier etc

I actually bought a SAIGA trunnion with bump rivet set aside with a flat bottom bullet guide just in case the Bulgarian AK74 trunnion idea doesn't work
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Old 08-04-2014, 9:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellayella View Post
I have SAIGA style bolt, carrier etc

I actually bought a SAIGA trunnion with bump rivet set aside with a flat bottom bullet guide just in case the Bulgarian AK74 trunnion idea doesn't work
If your barrel, bolt, magazines and bullet guide all fit into the trunion, you should be fine.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 08-04-2014 at 9:24 AM..
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