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  #601  
Old 06-19-2013, 3:02 AM
Hoagiem Hoagiem is offline
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Wouldn't it be kind of difficult to heat treat the sarco steel frames? I would think that it would warp without it being in a fixture as thin as it is. The steel ones are soft. I have found a place that will do the anodizing on the aluminum castings so I'll go that route on the aluminum. I believe the 17-4 stainless castings have been heat treated, at least they were advertised as being so. Do you have any ideas on the sarco steel castings? Building a fixture to heat treat those things could be a bit cost prohibitive.

Just a thought, but could the rails be carburized with some Kasenit or similar in particular areas? Any opinions on spot treating the slide stop hole?
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  #602  
Old 06-20-2013, 6:06 AM
tr6guns tr6guns is offline
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I just thought i would ask what everyone else doing, but here is what i did.
I wrapped the finished frame in Stainless Steel wrap and then preheated the kiln to 1,000 Degrees F. that i converted into a heat treating oven with a Solid State Relay and a Digital PID controller.
Then let it cool down some, and put the frame in and let sit for a 1/2 hour. Then raised the temp. to 1250 for a half hour and increased the temp to 1545 for another 1/2 hour. After which i quenched the whole package in oil and let cool for a few minutes while the oven cooled down with the lid open. Reset the temp to 600 and put the frame back in for a hour without wrap then shut everything off and let cool for the rest of the day. When tested i came out with between 50 and 55 RC Hardness. No warpage no scale no problem, i then bead blasted the frame and assembled and test fired. I still have to put finish on the whole gun but everything works. Will post pics. as soon as i reduce them in size for uploading...
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  #603  
Old 06-20-2013, 6:26 AM
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Pictures of Heat Treating Sarco Frames...

Last edited by tr6guns; 05-22-2016 at 5:42 AM..
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  #604  
Old 06-20-2013, 4:09 PM
Hoagiem Hoagiem is offline
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That's a nice setup you have. I thought you were talking about the double stack castings. What did that frame test for hardness prior to heat treat? Have you tested the double stack frames or heat treated any?
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  #605  
Old 06-20-2013, 5:11 PM
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What's a setup like that cost? That would be a nice thing to have. I think 50-55 is too hard, I'm thinking 35-40 would be good with out worrying about the frame cracking. Can you check the hardness on your barrel lugs? I'm kinda curious what would wear out first.


-joe
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  #606  
Old 06-20-2013, 5:11 PM
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Btw where did you get your castings from?

-joe
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  #607  
Old 06-21-2013, 3:35 AM
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The Hardness Files that i have only go from 40 RC to 65 RC so all the frames that i have are way below 40 because the files dig in pretty easy.
The used Kiln cost me 300 and the controls and wiring about another 150 and it is actually a double stack kiln, i only used the top half with the Bottom Plate.
If you don't want your frame that hard then Temper at 1,000 for 34 and 900 for 38 RC . I didn't do the Slide it was a commercial one, just the Frame so there would be no problem with the Barrel Lugs.
I purchased 12 of the castings years ago from Sarco.
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  #608  
Old 06-21-2013, 3:53 AM
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As far as what i have always done prior to heat treating is have a finished outside surface, Sand, File, Grind, even drill holes because some of it is dam hard to do after heat treating. On the double stack frames there is no surface preparation done whatsoever so i find it hard to believe that they are heat treated, but i don't have anything to test below 40 RC...
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  #609  
Old 06-21-2013, 8:56 AM
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Here is what mine looks like now, done in HK Semi Gloss Black and bead blasted and nickel plated some of the parts to go along with a pair of grips that i bought a long time ago. I let the coating cure for a day then buffed it down with 0000 steel wool and rags. The other one that is brushed nickel is one that i did about 9 years ago in 460 Roland instead of 45ACP. which steps out about 1450fps verses the 900 for ACP

Last edited by tr6guns; 05-22-2016 at 5:42 AM..
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  #610  
Old 06-21-2013, 2:00 PM
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Nice work!
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  #611  
Old 06-28-2013, 1:41 AM
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Another one sick of waiting on Ares here.

So I just grabbed a couple para P12 and P13 paperweights, and some caspian45 castings.

Really interested in the P12 and P13 now.

These are the alloy version, as sarco is out of steel in everything SA. Is the only additional metal treatment a type 3 ano once the machining is done?

Can you cut down a P12 into a P10?

Are the finger groove hogue grips really the only ones left on the shelf for the P12/13?
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  #612  
Old 06-28-2013, 3:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnm View Post
Another one sick of waiting on Ares here.

So I just grabbed a couple para P12 and P13 paperweights, and some caspian45 castings.

Really interested in the P12 and P13 now. These are the alloy version, as sarco is out of steel in everything SA. Is the only additional metal treatment a type 3 ano once the machining is done?
That's about all there is left to do.

Quote:
Can you cut down a P12 into a P10?
The P10 uses a shortened grip safety, there would be gaps on the sides of the mainspring housing at the top. The hammer strut is shorter also. You would loose the boss for the lower grip screw.

The mainspring housing would have to modified or the mainspring housing slots moved out from the magwell.

It would be a challenge but I think it could be done. There appears to be plenty of material at the mainspring housing area to move it out a little bit. Are you able to find a P10 grip safety?

Quote:
Are the finger groove hogue grips really the only ones left on the shelf for the P12/13?
I believe those are the most readily available options out there, they are nice and they fit well.

Give it a try, we'll help you.
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  #613  
Old 06-28-2013, 3:40 AM
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You might want to check here for the Grips..
http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?...ex&cPath=32_78
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  #614  
Old 07-09-2013, 9:54 AM
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I'm a newb here, and (having tried almost all-) can state that most of the links in this thread are strangely dead; Having looked for parts, the best place I can find for my upcoming P13 build is here. As I said, I'm a newbie here, so please don't beat me up too badly in your posts! Later.
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  #615  
Old 07-11-2013, 3:06 AM
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Also some parts here..
http://paraproshop.com/para-parts/pistol-parts.html
And here..
http://www.brownells.com/manufacture...ANCE/index.htm
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  #616  
Old 07-12-2013, 8:45 AM
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Default The single stack caspian slide

Hey Brian,

What is the cut for your rear sight on the slide you used for your single stack build with the Caspian45 frame?

TJ
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  #617  
Old 07-12-2013, 7:44 PM
brianbonedoc brianbonedoc is offline
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The slide I used I bought from a guy off gun broker. Novak cut.
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  #618  
Old 07-12-2013, 9:46 PM
Hoagiem Hoagiem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old fogey View Post
I'm a newb here, and (having tried almost all-) can state that most of the links in this thread are strangely dead; Having looked for parts, the best place I can find for my upcoming P13 build is here. As I said, I'm a newbie here, so please don't beat me up too badly in your posts! Later.
Take a look at Midway for the standard 1911 stuff, they have some good prices on the Smith and Wesson 1911 parts. I have bought several and they seem to be pretty good quality. You can use a Colt Defender mainspring housing and related parts and a recoil spring assembly, you can get those straight from Colt Parts online. Pick up one of the sear springs from them too, they are one of the better quality springs available.
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  #619  
Old 07-13-2013, 7:20 AM
justdave88 justdave88 is offline
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A few questions.

1. Where does one find the dimensions to complete this frame?
2. What parts are needed to complete the frame that are NOT standard 1911?
3. What was the cost of building the P-13?

Thanks
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  #620  
Old 07-13-2013, 4:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoagiem View Post
Take a look at Midway for the standard 1911 stuff, they have some good prices on the Smith and Wesson 1911 parts. I have bought several and they seem to be pretty good quality. You can use a Colt Defender mainspring housing and related parts and a recoil spring assembly, you can get those straight from Colt Parts online. Pick up one of the sear springs from them too, they are one of the better quality springs available.
Do the Colt Defender sear springs work for Para P12 or P13?
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  #621  
Old 07-13-2013, 5:00 PM
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The P13 uses a standard sear spring. The P12 uses a proprietary Para one. This P12 one can be made from modifying a std sear spring - somewhere in this thread Hoagiem or Mr. described it.
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  #622  
Old 07-13-2013, 6:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianbonedoc View Post
The P13 uses a standard sear spring. The P12 uses a proprietary Para one. This P12 one can be made from modifying a std sear spring - somewhere in this thread Hoagiem or Mr. described it.
Yeah, I'm trying to avoid the modification
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  #623  
Old 07-15-2013, 9:10 PM
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Thanks everyone (especially brianbonedoc for starting this thread). Having just received confirmation from Sarco on my P13 castings coming UPS now (you can find the full range of 1911-style frame castings here,) I might be able to enjoy starting my little projects this week!!
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  #624  
Old 07-17-2013, 2:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick View Post
Do the Colt Defender sear springs work for Para P12 or P13?
Unfortunately, no. There have been a few people try the llama short frame models but I don't recall anyone posting the results. That sear spring is a tough one to find, a few have contacted para direct and found one or two. I believe the warthog sear spring would work.

The modification is not all that difficult, sear springs are cheap so a practice run or two wouldn't hurt that much.
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  #625  
Old 07-20-2013, 2:39 PM
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Well I finally got around to finishing my other P13 frame. This time I used cheaper parts, like a Llama slide w/ the external extractor.
I did use a Clark/Para ramped barrel, and that was really easy to machine the frame for. I cerakoted the frame, grip safety, thumb safety and slide release, all matte black. I did have to drill out the firing pin hole in the slide as was described earlier in the thread. Everything else went fairly smooth. I know it goes click, I don't know if goes bang yet! I am really curious how it cycles w/ the external extractor.

If you are thinking, that looks like a 3D printed, ABS plastic, Rear Sight, you are correct. The Llama comes with a front sight installed and a dovetail for the rear sight thats a little smaller than standard GI cut.
We'll see how long my plastic one holds up!







http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/...ps174a9117.jpg
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  #626  
Old 07-20-2013, 3:59 PM
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Looks really good bro.
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  #627  
Old 07-21-2013, 3:53 AM
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Nice looking gun...
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  #628  
Old 07-21-2013, 6:04 AM
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Looking good Brian
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  #629  
Old 07-21-2013, 7:39 AM
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That's what im talking about.
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  #630  
Old 07-21-2013, 6:54 PM
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I have been looking for some 9mm stuff as I will be starting my frame here soon. I plan on doing more than one but in different calibers.

Right now I have a complete HAWG 9 top end I plan on putting on one of the frames and I am still collecting parts for the others I want to do .45, 38 super, .40s&w. I have a longer magazine in 9mm (P18) and a P10 9mm magazine but I haven't seen a P12 9mm magazine. Was that combo even offered from the factory or they just hard to find? If not I may have to swap the 9mm top end to a P13 frame.
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  #631  
Old 07-21-2013, 8:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safjist_Nipnog View Post
I have been looking for some 9mm stuff as I will be starting my frame here soon. I plan on doing more than one but in different calibers.

Right now I have a complete HAWG 9 top end I plan on putting on one of the frames and I am still collecting parts for the others I want to do .45, 38 super, .40s&w. I have a longer magazine in 9mm (P18) and a P10 9mm magazine but I haven't seen a P12 9mm magazine. Was that combo even offered from the factory or they just hard to find? If not I may have to swap the 9mm top end to a P13 frame.
I could never get the p13 frame only p12's
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  #632  
Old 07-22-2013, 6:29 AM
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Looks like Sarco still has the P13 Double Stack Single Action...
http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/framecasti...ublestack.aspx
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  #633  
Old 07-22-2013, 6:52 AM
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Looks like a P12 to me, I have one of the alloy frames and it's a p12

This looks closer to a p13(da I know)
http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/widebody19...astings-1.aspx
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  #634  
Old 07-22-2013, 8:57 AM
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When I first ordered frames from Sarco the first time I ordered one double wide single action to see what they looked like. Since then I ordered 5 more. I got 3 different types. The first one was metal, one looks stainless, the rest (4) look and feel like aluminum. All of these were ordered when Sarco had just the one listing.

I was thinking they had them separated now since they were showing two separate listings. I may just have to order some more to see. Not like they are going to go bad, lol.
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  #635  
Old 07-23-2013, 4:25 AM
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Call them up and ask for the parts dept. then ask them to measure the grip screw holes. The P12 is 2 7/16" center to center. The P13 is 2 11/16"...
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  #636  
Old 07-23-2013, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tr6guns View Post
Call them up and ask for the parts dept. then ask them to measure the grip screw holes. The P12 is 2 7/16" center to center. The P13 is 2 11/16"...
All they have left is alloy right?

-joe
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  #637  
Old 07-23-2013, 1:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. View Post
All they have left is alloy right?

-joe
Yup. They even cancelled my order for the steel ones, even though it was placed while they still had them (supposedly).
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  #638  
Old 07-23-2013, 2:11 PM
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Have you take it to the range yet? It looks so good man
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  #639  
Old 07-23-2013, 8:52 PM
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No range report yet - gotta get out there soon. Hopefully it cycles right. I hand cycled a few live rounds and it seemed to extract fine. I always switch to a modified/shortened firing pin that is incapable of hitting the round when I do this just because I'm paranoid.
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  #640  
Old 07-24-2013, 4:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianbonedoc View Post
No range report yet - gotta get out there soon. Hopefully it cycles right. I hand cycled a few live rounds and it seemed to extract fine. I always switch to a modified/shortened firing pin that is incapable of hitting the round when I do this just because I'm paranoid.
You should pick up a package or two of the snap caps to use for testing, I have some dummy rounds made up without primers in them. Better safe than sorry. Hand cycling is hard on the snap caps, they are aluminum and will show signs of wear quickly. The reload dummies are easy enough to make and you can use the same bullets that you will be firing to test it.
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