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  #81  
Old 07-08-2013, 10:21 AM
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I noticed while watching 24, the tv series with Kiefer Sutherland and he uses the 'cup and saucer' grip in the first couple shows of the first season at least
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  #82  
Old 07-08-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Clee View Post
Frank Proctor and Superset vids always good.
Absolutely. They released another trailer a few days ago with the full DVD release scheduled for August 2013.

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  #83  
Old 07-08-2013, 10:56 AM
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Went and took the kids to go see World War Z. And was shocked that one of the main lines was Pitt's character telling the virologist "to keep his finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot". Well the character of course didn't and tripped/ popping himself in the head. BTW it's an ok movie. Good for Netflix or video.
Just maybe some folks Hollywood are taking some safety responsibility after all

Last edited by DSMeyer; 07-08-2013 at 11:01 AM..
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  #84  
Old 07-08-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by DSMeyer View Post
Just maybe some folks Hollywood are taking some safety responsibility after all
I don't believe that for one second.
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  #85  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
Isosceles is considered superior by many (which is one of the reasons why is used by nearly all competitive shooters), but it really does come down to whichever one allows you to perform at your highest level.

Unfortunately, there are training schools that use production-line training techniques and still try to force their students into using only the Weaver stance.
The more I study and train, the less convinced I am that there is any "one true and holy" technique.

There are things that work well, things that work a little better in some cases, and stuff which is total crap.

IMHO, the complete defensive skill set consists of developing good default behaviors, which cover most of the bases, and then (if time/money/inclination allow) filling those in with other skills for specific circumstances.

Iso is probably the best overall default technique. IMHO that's where 80% of your training time belongs. Weaver and even CAR certainly "work", and have their places ... just not as general/default techniques.
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  #86  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
The more I study and train, the less convinced I am that there is any "one true and holy" technique.

There are things that work well, things that work a little better in some cases, and stuff which is total crap.

IMHO, the complete defensive skill set consists of developing good default behaviors, which cover most of the bases, and then (if time/money/inclination allow) filling those in with other skills for specific circumstances.

Iso is probably the best overall default technique. IMHO that's where 80% of your training time belongs. Weaver and even CAR certainly "work", and have their places ... just not as general/default techniques.
It's all so subjective. Find out what works best for you personally by giving various techniques a good try.

Personally, CAR may have its uses but to teach it as a default method is resorting to a marketing gimmick.

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Old 07-08-2013, 1:07 PM
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I heard the phrase "Center Axis Relock" before, but never seen anyone actually uses it.
Can someone explains it for me? Is this some kind weaver based stance?
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  #88  
Old 07-08-2013, 1:12 PM
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So unimpressed with CAR. I'll admit I've only made a glancing research on the technique but it seems so lame. First, anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, it was invented by a British cop. Cops in the UK for the most part are unarmed. Even if he was an armed cop how much action did he see to test this technique? Secondly and more practically using CAR blinds your peripheral vision. That's genius, in a shoot out considering you're going to get tunnel vision and now you've just exacerbated it more by narrowing your field of view. Has anyone noticed that this technique is not taught or adopted by anyone else besides Castle's students. That's pretty telling.

I won a free training class form Civilian Arms Training when I attended the Dave Grossman seminar. I looked through their brochure and spoke with the black BDU cladded salesmen at the booth and instantly knew that was not for me. I donated that voucher to the Calguns booth and told them to auction it or something. I wanted no part.
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  #89  
Old 07-08-2013, 1:19 PM
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I thought from the title that this thread would be about Hollywood films and TV shows!

Like Tubbs laying down covering fire and shooting 11 shots from his J frame while Crockett shoots his Bren 10 with thumbs crossed behind the slide and both right and left hand index fingers pulling the trigger.

CAR - how to explain it- picture sitting in your car, while keeping your shoulders against the seat, engage a threat to your left out of the drivers window.

You basically are holding the pistol with the gun across your chest using the eye that is on the same side as the gun

So you would have the gun in your right hand with your left being the support hand. You would use your left eye on the sights while engaging the threat.

At the range, picture with your left shoulder being towards the target.
It might be called the evolution of the weaver platform.

So back to the thread title- where are the Hollywood pistol techniques?
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Old 07-08-2013, 1:45 PM
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Ha, then I actually used CAR stance before without knowing it.
I guess it is useful when shooting left side (as right handed) without, or unable to turn the body.
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  #91  
Old 07-08-2013, 2:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
I thought from the title that this thread would be about Hollywood films and TV shows!

So back to the thread title- where are the Hollywood pistol techniques?
As the OP, I'm good with this thread drifting into & showing any bad techniques, good techniques, outfits to be avoided, marginal techniques & outfits, safety issues and of course good techniques.
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  #92  
Old 07-08-2013, 2:23 PM
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  #93  
Old 07-08-2013, 2:30 PM
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It's perhaps best to have C.A.R. explained by Paul Castle himself:



I agree with ramzar -- it's definitely not the best default technique, but has clear advantages in some cases.
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  #94  
Old 07-08-2013, 2:30 PM
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I think the last technique was used by Aaron Hernandez.
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  #95  
Old 07-08-2013, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
It's not TFTT's to let. That shoot-house at Burro Canyon Shooting Park does not have blast-proof walls (laminated wood sandwich with rocks in between) so you have to navigate just certain paths with no 360 firing.

Here's how TFTT does it with LE Only shooters:

All I have to say after watching that video is....


I want a mother ****ing chainsaw backpack.
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  #96  
Old 07-08-2013, 9:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
Ha, then I actually used CAR stance before without knowing it.
I guess it is useful when shooting left side (as right handed) without, or unable to turn the body.
Yes. I've used it under limited circumstances without knowing that somebody had "named" it! Useful when you can't turn around or in a car. Usually, tight confines. You just automatically adapt. However, to teach this to beginners is just not cool!
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  #97  
Old 07-08-2013, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Yes. I've used it under limited circumstances without knowing that somebody had "named" it! Useful when you can't turn around or in a car. Usually, tight confines. You just automatically adapt. However, to teach this to beginners is just not cool!
It would seem to me that for a brand new pistol shooter you are loosing out on the pure fundamentals of marksmanship and instilling "different" habits. I have no dog in this fight since I've never done CAR...
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  #98  
Old 07-09-2013, 1:11 AM
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It would seem to me that for a brand new pistol shooter you are loosing out on the pure fundamentals of marksmanship and instilling "different" habits. I have no dog in this fight since I've never done CAR...
Agreed. I don't understand why it even needs a name. Whatever advantages you get in the application of the technique (tight confines) will be immediately evident during the required circumstance.

Are you going to try and extend your arms if you don't have room to extend them? I hope not. That's not a system, that's common sense.

I don't think the CAR techniques as a whole are superior to more generally accepted best practices for basic handgun marksmanship. By that I mean working square to the target, aiming with both eyes, arms extended, etc.

If you are an experienced shooter and want to mix it up then I could see it. Otherwise, meh.
One mans opinion.
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  #99  
Old 07-09-2013, 2:56 AM
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Last edited by ramzar; 07-09-2013 at 3:14 AM..
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  #100  
Old 07-09-2013, 8:29 AM
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Last night I sent Paul Howe an email regarding CAR asking whether it was valid or if it was gimmick, this is what he sent me back this morning:

Charles,

Gimmick. It was outlawed in many states by many training agencies as officers shot themselves in the bicep. The guy who developed it was a British Police Officer who could not carry a gun.

Take care,

Paul


Funny his last sentence was exactly what I posted earlier...

Going back to the Hollywood theme:
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  #101  
Old 07-09-2013, 9:17 AM
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We were briefly introduced to CAR during a POST training I attended in Sacramento a few years ago. It seemed clumsy and designed to look cool but didnt seem to function well.

On the issue of weaver vs. isoceles, it seems like a silly war to wade into. I don't feel either is hands down superior to the other. I stick with training folks to use modified weaver as it fits with protecting your strong side and I only train cops. Seems simple to me, others may disagree...
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  #102  
Old 07-09-2013, 9:40 AM
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CAR works fine for what it's designed for, close quarters, retention, etc. I've even put good groups down to 25 yards with it. It's just another tool in the box...
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  #103  
Old 07-09-2013, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Case View Post
Are you going to try and extend your arms if you don't have room to extend them? I hope not ... that's common sense.
You'd be surprised what I have seen in person. A lot of "common sense" goes right out the window when people are under any kind of even minimal pressure. Most default to either a) Doing whatever they have repeatedly practiced, or b) Near apoplectic inaction. In between, there is a vast landscape of "oh no you dint!" behaviors.

Quote:
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If you are an experienced shooter and want to mix it up then I could see it. Otherwise, meh.
One mans opinion.
Makes sense to me.
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  #104  
Old 07-09-2013, 12:30 PM
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[QUOTE=ZombieTactics;11775582]You'd be surprised what I have seen in person. A lot of "common sense" goes right out the window when people are under any kind of even minimal pressure. Most default to either a) Doing whatever they have repeatedly practiced, or b) Near apoplectic inaction. In between, there is a vast landscape of "oh no you dint!" behaviors.

Seen the same thing many times.
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  #105  
Old 07-09-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
You'd be surprised what I have seen in person. A lot of "common sense" goes right out the window when people are under any kind of even minimal pressure. Most default to either a) Doing whatever they have repeatedly practiced, or b) Near apoplectic inaction. In between, there is a vast landscape of "oh no you dint!" behaviors.
In a "gunfight" most default to Strong Hand Only (SHO) so it pays to practice it frequently and also from the draw.
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  #106  
Old 07-09-2013, 4:41 PM
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I would basically do this:

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  #107  
Old 07-09-2013, 4:58 PM
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In a "gunfight" most default to Strong Hand Only (SHO) so it pays to practice it frequently and also from the draw.
Wurd.
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  #108  
Old 07-09-2013, 5:02 PM
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I would basically do this:

That's definitely an effective technique.

Now, show us with a pistol!
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  #109  
Old 07-09-2013, 5:18 PM
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I would basically do this:


Thank you!!! I needed a good hard chuckle for today. Thats one video to pass around.
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Old 07-09-2013, 5:25 PM
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LAV is not amused. Consider yourself warned, sofatactical.
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Old 07-09-2013, 5:41 PM
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LAV is not amused. Consider yourself warned, sofatactical.
Sofa only need worry if LAV has his number or if he's a dentist.
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Old 07-09-2013, 5:41 PM
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LAV is not amused. Consider yourself warned, sofatactical.
LAV is a great instructor, has encyclopedic knowledge and experience about weapons and tactics but at the age of 50 he's fast becoming a grumpy old prima donna.
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  #113  
Old 07-09-2013, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Took the words right out of my mouth. What's worse is that they have worked very hard, at becoming very proficient at nonsense.

Here's more from Italy's candidate for "the ADE of Europe":

I am amazed by a few things. First, the shooter still has toes. Second that the shooter still has knees. Thirdly, the cameraman is still alive.
The shooter appeared to be rather........sloppy.
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  #114  
Old 07-09-2013, 8:57 PM
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The retardation of this product and video knows no bounds:

Hey NRA instructor at 1:40 get your finger out of the trigger well; maybe he's a experienced and skilled operators like Sonny suggested so I guess its ok.
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  #115  
Old 07-09-2013, 9:45 PM
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LAV is not amused. Consider yourself warned, sofatactical.
Oh lord, this is spilling over here as well? I'm popping smoke before someone gets my number and discovers my agenda.
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  #116  
Old 07-10-2013, 7:40 AM
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The retardation of this product and video knows no bounds

Works great for me.


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  #117  
Old 07-10-2013, 8:00 AM
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Exactly. It is therefore important that one chooses a caliber one can handle...especially SHO. Don't get caught up in caliber and pick one you can shoot well.

Quote:
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In a "gunfight" most default to Strong Hand Only (SHO) so it pays to practice it frequently and also from the draw.
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  #118  
Old 07-10-2013, 7:50 PM
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Works great for me.


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Old 07-11-2013, 6:14 AM
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^ hahahaha!
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  #120  
Old 07-13-2013, 10:46 AM
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It's all so subjective. Find out what works best for you personally by giving various techniques a good try.

Personally, CAR may have its uses but to teach it as a default method is resorting to a marketing gimmick.

I finally watched this video, well at least parts of it as I fast forward to parts. First on the screenshot of this vid with all students on the line. How does CAT teach all these students on the line without muzzling the guy in front of you when you holster and unholster your gun?

Next at 11:00, the shooting on the move portion, do they really teach people to cross their legs while moving?

That's all I watched and that was enough for me to learn enough about these guys.

Man the more I research this "system" it proves to me its a joke and ha no real world applications.

If any one is looking into these guys all I can say is do what you want and spend your training money (and ammo) wisely.
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