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  #41  
Old 07-06-2013, 5:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
... want to "mix" shooting and traditional martial art moves
Got me into recalling another "tactical training" outfit from a couple of years ago. Go to 4:40 and it gets real "interesting"!

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  #42  
Old 07-06-2013, 5:45 PM
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More gems from Chris Collins, supposed former US Marine:

Love 0:55 just one of the few gems, I'm going to muzzle strike you with a real pistol, when I have a bluegun hanging out in my pocket.

All I can say is at least these schmucks aren't training in the US.
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  #43  
Old 07-06-2013, 7:35 PM
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His voice is annoying !!
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  #44  
Old 07-06-2013, 8:03 PM
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I understand the drills in second and third vids to a point.

Essentially up until the ninja rolling starts.

It iis important to practice smooth transitions from supine shooting to kneeling to standing and so on, but the otherwise stationary drills and that ridiculous and unsafe rolling "technique" are just stupid.
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  #45  
Old 07-06-2013, 8:29 PM
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flashbacks of Milli Vanilli.
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  #46  
Old 07-06-2013, 9:33 PM
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So help me understand. When Marines/etc. crawl under barbed wire and have live fire goes over their head... when SWAT members practice and have a sniper initiate the entry with live fire that lands a couple of feet away from the entry man... is this wrong too?

I think the guy in one of the videos wasn't using the blue gun because he wanted to simulate life fire after the strikes. So he play striked the guy, then reloaded his gun and then shot at the target downrange. You can't do that with a blue gun.
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  #47  
Old 07-06-2013, 9:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
The abundance of trash and unsafe techniques is endless.

Those rolls are awesome. I wonder if those guys trained with Hondo's SWAT Team.
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  #48  
Old 07-06-2013, 9:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallfornoone View Post
What's a better stance?
Isosceles is considered superior by many (which is one of the reasons why is used by nearly all competitive shooters), but it really does come down to whichever one allows you to perform at your highest level.

Unfortunately, there are training schools that use production-line training techniques and still try to force their students into using only the Weaver stance.
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  #49  
Old 07-06-2013, 10:00 PM
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1st video = seems like its just 2 guys messing around mag dumping... then i realize they are serious... so bad.

2nd video/other videos = to me it looks like the rolls are more of an exercise/physical fitness thing (i.e. build stamina). or maybe to help build agility/flexibility to help with movement/transitions. much like some drills involve shooting numbered targets or say blues only, even numbers, primes only counting down, etc. - not realistic, but good exercises for the sake of simulating stress, etc. i.e. you don't hear stories about say militaries the US (or anyone else) has fought around the world doing stuff like this during actual war.

edit: question moved to LE/mil subforum.

Last edited by penguinofsleep; 07-06-2013 at 10:17 PM..
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  #50  
Old 07-06-2013, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Religious Shooter View Post
So help me understand. When Marines/etc. crawl under barbed wire and have live fire goes over their head... when SWAT members practice and have a sniper initiate the entry with live fire that lands a couple of feet away from the entry man... is this wrong too?

I think the guy in one of the videos wasn't using the blue gun because he wanted to simulate life fire after the strikes. So he play striked the guy, then reloaded his gun and then shot at the target downrange. You can't do that with a blue gun.
Apple and Orange

In all the examples you made, the shooters supposedly never intentionally covered his or her muzzles on any of the trainees, and maintained positive control at all time.

Yes, the gun was pointed at a general direction that some good guys are, which is inevitable in real world, but the muzzle should never sweep anyone.

the ninja guys in the second video clearly pointed their loaded guns at each other and camera man during the roll. Furthermore, what is the tactical value of such roll at all?
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  #51  
Old 07-06-2013, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinofsleep View Post
1st video = seems like its just 2 guys messing around mag dumping... then i realize they are serious... so bad.

2nd video/other videos = to me it looks like the rolls are more of an exercise/physical fitness thing (i.e. build stamina). or maybe to help build agility/flexibility to help with movement/transitions. much like some drills involve shooting numbered targets or say blues only, even numbers, primes only counting down, etc. - not realistic, but good exercises for the sake of simulating stress, etc. i.e. you don't hear stories about say militaries the US (or anyone else) has fought around the world doing stuff like this during actual war.

edit: question moved to LE/mil subforum.
There are many safer ways to induce stress/fatigue during shooting drill.
such as sprinting, push ups or flutter kicks; all of them can be conduct safely in a small range without muzzle sweeping each other
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  #52  
Old 07-06-2013, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Religious Shooter View Post
So help me understand. When Marines/etc. crawl under barbed wire and have live fire goes over their head... when SWAT members practice and have a sniper initiate the entry with live fire that lands a couple of feet away from the entry man... is this wrong too?

I think the guy in one of the videos wasn't using the blue gun because he wanted to simulate life fire after the strikes. So he play striked the guy, then reloaded his gun and then shot at the target downrange. You can't do that with a blue gun.
Marines don't combine the low-crawl course with live fire. That's just begging for something to go wrong.

And there's no reason to use a live weapon when you've got a sim on your belt. Any live fire after the demonstration would be after a transition. You even see him drop the (supposedly empty) mag and reload before firing. That time could have instead been used to swap to the live pistol.

It's one thing to train realistically. It's another to invite mishaps through complacency and negligence. What training purpose does it serve to have live targets stand downrange during live fire? Why not use paper targets that are no-shoot and penalize for hitting them? or steel targets that only react when hit in specific places?

Minimize risk in all situations, including training.
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  #53  
Old 07-07-2013, 1:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtMerc View Post
Marines don't combine the low-crawl course with live fire. That's just begging for something to go wrong.

And there's no reason to use a live weapon when you've got a sim on your belt. Any live fire after the demonstration would be after a transition. You even see him drop the (supposedly empty) mag and reload before firing. That time could have instead been used to swap to the live pistol.
I lot of trainers teach that if you go dry (slidelock) and you are very close to your assailant... you use your weapon as an impact tool and strike your assailant and then make space and reload and then fire.

You aren't getting a good sense of the above if you strike with a blue gun then step back (and drop the blue gun) and then draw your weapon and reload and then fire at the assailant.

Granted when I did this with another trainer we smacked the paper target with our guns and then did the rest of the steps.

Quote:
It's one thing to train realistically. It's another to invite mishaps through complacency and negligence. What training purpose does it serve to have live targets stand downrange during live fire? Why not use paper targets that are no-shoot and penalize for hitting them? or steel targets that only react when hit in specific places?

Minimize risk in all situations, including training.
As noted above (before he deleted it) the purpose of the live fire is to basically acclimate the shooter and the people around the target to actual fire in a controlled environment.

So Marines/Soldiers/etc. don't crawl (now and in the past) with bullets going over their heads?
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  #54  
Old 07-07-2013, 1:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
Apple and Orange

In all the examples you made, the shooters supposedly never intentionally covered his or her muzzles on any of the trainees, and maintained positive control at all time.

Yes, the gun was pointed at a general direction that some good guys are, which is inevitable in real world, but the muzzle should never sweep anyone.

the ninja guys in the second video clearly pointed their loaded guns at each other and camera man during the roll. Furthermore, what is the tactical value of such roll at all?
My comments are about the two videos with the ex-Marine guy instructing other shooters. The videos where the instructor is firing at the target with two students to the left and right of it.

The "Chris Collins" videos.

Last edited by Religious Shooter; 07-07-2013 at 1:56 AM..
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  #55  
Old 07-07-2013, 8:05 AM
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Wow.

Holy Moly!

The guy in the yellow hat has the best job in Latin America. No wonder they are all hopping the border to come here.

I love how all the shots in the AK vid are at the dong. If the shooter hits the hostage where the hell do you think those shots are going? I'd rather be shot in the face.
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  #56  
Old 07-07-2013, 9:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
The abundance of trash and unsafe techniques is endless.

@ 1:55 the guy on the right straight up points his weapon at the guy on the left. lmao so awesome. population control in the making.
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  #57  
Old 07-07-2013, 9:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
Wow.

Holy Moly!

The guy in the yellow hat has the best job in Latin America. No wonder they are all hopping the border to come here.

I love how all the shots in the AK vid are at the dong. If the shooter hits the hostage where the hell do you think those shots are going? I'd rather be shot in the face.
Hmm, I think we found a new use for child molesters?
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  #58  
Old 07-07-2013, 11:55 AM
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The overseas "training techniques" are abhorrent but let's not forget some of what has gone on here in the U.S. It may be old news but still relevant because the practices are condoned.



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  #59  
Old 07-07-2013, 12:37 PM
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I prefer this ADE video. It illustrates all their glory much better

It even has dual fisted ninja blades.
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  #60  
Old 07-07-2013, 1:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Clee View Post
I prefer this ADE video. It illustrates all their glory much better
It even has dual fisted ninja blades.
Yes, that one takes the prize. A number of instances where the bullets are frightfully close.

"Synchronized Live Fire Training For Operators" by "The Professionals" at ADE!
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  #61  
Old 07-07-2013, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PM720 View Post
6th dimension?

Scott
Ha. 3 axes of movement... pitch, roll, and yaw.

I have almost tossed competitors out of a match (uspsa, steel, etc) for exhibiting those programmed range motions of checking clear left and right for additional threats.

Fighting discipline has no place at the gun range. Save it for airsoft.

If you do indeed have a fighting discipline.

headache now.
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  #62  
Old 07-07-2013, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omgwtfbbq View Post
These guys kill me.

I would like to find a competent instructor who seriously advocates staying stationary and mag dumping as legit combat shooting techniques.

As for Hollywood... That's an entirely different can of worms. I was watching Mr. and Mrs. Smith the other night (I'm a sucker for Angelina) and there's a scene in which Brad Pitt is stalking through the house looking for Angelina with his very nice suppressed 1911 but as I looked closely I could tell that if the situation were real, he would surely die... The slide on said 1911 was out of battery.
This is an aspect of my new job in NV...

Lots of the guns on a set re either rubber copies or even die cast metal repros that sound proper when cocked or safety removed... but not true functioning firearms. Anymore most big sets are using CG to create muzzle flash and slide motion. You can tell the ones that still use blank firing firearms cause the actor will typically flinch or blink when they shoot.
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  #63  
Old 07-07-2013, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Clee View Post
I prefer this ADE video. It illustrates all their glory much better

It even has dual fisted ninja blades.
TFTT let them use the facility?
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  #64  
Old 07-07-2013, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
TFTT let them use the facility?
It's not TFTT's to let. That shoot-house at Burro Canyon Shooting Park does not have blast-proof walls (laminated wood sandwich with rocks in between) so you have to navigate just certain paths with no 360 firing.

Here's how TFTT does it with LE Only shooters:

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  #65  
Old 07-07-2013, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Got me into recalling another "tactical training" outfit from a couple of years ago. Go to 4:40 and it gets real "interesting"!

w__________tf.

1. three and half minutes - "Getting gay with the yakuza."
2. The muzzle strike drills are performed with mags marked with orange tape- good.
Then the final live fire drill is done with same orange marked mags with live ammo now.

This is the kind of stupid that fixes itself.
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  #66  
Old 07-07-2013, 6:21 PM
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classy videos........
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  #67  
Old 07-07-2013, 8:03 PM
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btw, does anyone think those mall rolling ninjas in the second video were too close to steel? They were at most 7 yard from the targets...
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  #68  
Old 07-07-2013, 8:40 PM
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Quote:
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btw, does anyone think those mall rolling ninjas in the second video were too close to steel? They were at most 7 yard from the targets...
Do you really think they care about minimum safe distance?
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  #69  
Old 07-07-2013, 11:08 PM
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What happened to Sonny Puzikas and the guy he accidentally shot last year?
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  #70  
Old 07-07-2013, 11:22 PM
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What happened to Sonny Puzikas and the guy he accidentally shot last year?
I haven't heard much since he shot his Assistant Instructor because he did not ID the target and clear the shoot-house. I hope the AI recovered.

I think Panteao Productions dropped him and his video "Make Ready with Sonny Puzikas: Fighting with the AK - Lost in Translation" although you can find his DVD elsewhere.
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  #71  
Old 07-07-2013, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
I haven't heard much since he shot his Assistant Instructor because he did not ID the target and clear the shoot-house. I hope the AI recovered.

I think Panteao Productions dropped him and his video "Make Ready with Sonny Puzikas: Fighting with the AK - Lost in Translation" although you can find his DVD elsewhere.
well, I remember when I first wore body armor in ranges, some people told me to get balls.


Everyone to his/her own, but I rather be treated as a coward by wearing armor than having extra six holes on my ***.
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  #72  
Old 07-07-2013, 11:52 PM
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I was thinking about this
Maybe we can create a permanent thread pinned in the section about some red flags in classes for new shooter, so they can safely avoid them?

Like when you looking through an instructor's resume or video, what are some warning signs a new shooter should be careful with?
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  #73  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:00 AM
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Most resumes and videos put out by instructors are not as revealing as reading AARs and talking to a bunch of students who have taken the instructor's classes.

The best way is to out the flagrant violaters with such videos and by example a potential student can see what shenanigans to avoid. Safety first, second and third.
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  #74  
Old 07-08-2013, 6:12 AM
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Saw some pics from a Puzika's AK class a week or so after the accident. The class was completely full. It only added to his allure. Those Russian guys are that deadly, doncha know?
Also, I've heard that the place for no BS AARs is The Doodie Project.
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  #75  
Old 07-08-2013, 8:11 AM
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AAR can be biased toward hero worship so take it for what its worth. They are like gun or gear reviews, while some are worthwhile most just write them to validate their purchase.

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Saw some pics from a Puzika's AK class a week or so after the accident. The class was completely full. It only added to his allure. Those Russian guys are that deadly, doncha know?
Gossip of violence. What a bunch chumps. That shooting just gave Sonny more street cred in their view.

Check out this gem from Sonny at about 5:15

I read even Gabe Suarez said that was a no go in his class, even though he did write stupid and controversial article about its ok to ride your trigger if you're experienced.

"This approach is for limited use by experienced and skilled operators ONLY."
I guess Sonny proved that his is neither skilled or experienced enough to use this technique. I guess there is some debate whether Sonny is truly Spetnaz. Considering he shot a friendly I think he might very well be.

Last edited by Clee; 07-08-2013 at 8:15 AM..
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  #76  
Old 07-08-2013, 8:48 AM
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There is a level of hero worship / fanboyism to AARs, instructors, SF/SWAT and gear. Not easy to navigate it all. Read, talk and watch a variety of material and sources but ultimately you have to give it a try. Price is also an issue and it's not always you get what you pay for.

Sonny's trigger inside the trigger guard (pushing away from trigger) for faster and smoother trigger pull is just reckless. You don't gain anything but unsafety!
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  #77  
Old 07-08-2013, 8:50 AM
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Can anyone post up a couple good videos?
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  #78  
Old 07-08-2013, 8:54 AM
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.
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  #79  
Old 07-08-2013, 8:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallfornoone View Post
Can anyone post up a couple good videos?
For free video series you can't beat the ones by Dave Spaulding (defensive pistol) & Doug Koenig (competitive shooting) covering a wide spectrum:
For fee-based the Panteao Productions Online Training subscription:
Panteao Productions Online Training
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Last edited by ramzar; 07-08-2013 at 10:06 AM.. Reason: More video lists
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Old 07-08-2013, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by fallfornoone View Post
Can anyone post up a couple good videos?
Frank Proctor and Superset vids always good.
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