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  #41  
Old 06-12-2013, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanDad View Post
It meets all of the criteria...

Start with D...
It fires a projectile. That makes it a gun as far as California is concerned. Yup.

Said existing gun a) was not imported by a Type 8 FFL licensed importer as a gun. Please read that section of the law again. It is saying a legally imported firearm cannot be a zip gun, this doesnt mean anything not imported is a zip gun. This criteria has nothing to do with making a firearm. Its in the law to make sure imported firearms which meet the other criteria are not classified as zip guns.


Said gun is not based on a pre-existing design by a Type 7 FFL licensed manufacturer. (Sorry, but this is how b. is interpreted. If you can find me the POS Caulk gun shotgun by a licensed 07 FFL that he based his design on, then maybe you have an argument... But I would bet money no such gun exists. ) I completely disagree, that means no person has the right to invent or manufacture an item themselves. They must only copy other designs. This is against free commerce and actually violate standing Patent/copyright laws. This criteria is aimed at manufacturing a firearm from an item not meant to be a firearm by design. There is no law against making your own, car, bicycle, hammer, chair, baseball bat, computer or firearm. There are laws surrounding their sale. You got this idea from anti-2nd A people who only want guns made in factories, sold in stores to be legal. That's not what America was founded on. You have a right to be self sufficient and not have to rely on mass produced goods.

C. No tax was paid. Private persons are exempt from firearms taxes in the section quoted as long as its for personal use. C clearly says, "or non-exempt", meaning person with who are exempted do not fit into the criteria.

Answer= ITS A ZIP GUN in California. Other states, that might be legal, but not CA.


You can manufacture your own firearm for personal use under ATF Rules... BUT... IN CALIFORNIA, it has to be based on a PREEXISTING DESIGN from a licensed manufacturer .... Or, its a zip gun.
I believe many Anti-2nd A people are on your side on this. That's why you think this way. You were taught this and cannot think outside of what you were told. DiFi, Lee, Obama agree with you all the way.

You as a person who says they support freedom need to take a step back and re-evaluate how you view this law.

This is no different then when people freaked over the magazine lock, Fin grips.

You are allowed to make a firearm for personal use. You don't have to copy and steal another persons ideas and design. To actually think a law allows you to steal intellectual property is just wrong in and on its own.

No one has the right to tell you how to provide for your family. They cannot tell you the firearm you built for protection and to feed your family is illegal simply because someone else who makes money designing them didn't design yours.

A zip gun is,
1- A device imported by a licensed importer that was not a firearm, which fires a projectile and no taxes where paid when taxes were to be paid. Whos original design was not that of a firearm.
2- A device not imported as a firearm, which no tax was paid when tax was to be paid and was not originally designed to be a firearm.

I am going to beat this point to death,
I have every legal right to design and build a firearm for my own use. If I choose to mass produce or sell that firearm I must do the whole firearm license manufacturing thing or I run afoul of Treasury and FTB laws. Do not confuse those laws with zip gun laws. They are not the same.

As I said, modifying an Airsoft toy to fire .22lr, could be found to be a zip gun, that's about as far as I would go against the 2nd A on this matter. Its a device not designed by a licensed firearm manufacturer that was modified into a firearm. But you have the whole tax exempt verbiage in the law???
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  #42  
Old 06-12-2013, 9:36 PM
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A better homemade shotgun is here, actually a 12 ga pistol.
http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/


How about the homemade 9mm gun.

Vick
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  #43  
Old 06-12-2013, 9:53 PM
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Making a gun from scavenged parts in your garage is no different from 3d printing a single shot pistol.
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  #44  
Old 06-13-2013, 1:41 AM
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Very ghetto!
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  #45  
Old 06-13-2013, 3:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanDad View Post
It meets all of the criteria...

Start with D...
It fires a projectile. That makes it a gun as far as California is concerned.

Said existing gun a) was not imported by a Type 8 FFL licensed importer as a gun.

Said gun is not based on a pre-existing design by a Type 7 FFL licensed manufacturer. (Sorry, but this is how b. is interpreted. If you can find me the POS Caulk gun shotgun by a licensed 07 FFL that he based his design on, then maybe you have an argument... But I would bet money no such gun exists. )

C. No tax was paid.

Answer= ITS A ZIP GUN in California. Other states, that might be legal, but not CA.


You can manufacture your own firearm for personal use under ATF Rules... BUT... IN CALIFORNIA, it has to be based on a PREEXISTING DESIGN from a licensed manufacturer .... Or, its a zip gun.
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  #46  
Old 06-13-2013, 4:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWDraco View Post
I believe many Anti-2nd A people are on your side on this. That's why you think this way. You were taught this and cannot think outside of what you were told. DiFi, Lee, Obama agree with you all the way.

You as a person who says they support freedom need to take a step back and re-evaluate how you view this law.

This is no different then when people freaked over the magazine lock, Fin grips.

You are allowed to make a firearm for personal use. You don't have to copy and steal another persons ideas and design. To actually think a law allows you to steal intellectual property is just wrong in and on its own.

No one has the right to tell you how to provide for your family. They cannot tell you the firearm you built for protection and to feed your family is illegal simply because someone else who makes money designing them didn't design yours.

A zip gun is,
1- A device imported by a licensed importer that was not a firearm, which fires a projectile and no taxes where paid when taxes were to be paid. Whos original design was not that of a firearm.
2- A device not imported as a firearm, which no tax was paid when tax was to be paid and was not originally designed to be a firearm.

I am going to beat this point to death,
I have every legal right to design and build a firearm for my own use. If I choose to mass produce or sell that firearm I must do the whole firearm license manufacturing thing or I run afoul of Treasury and FTB laws. Do not confuse those laws with zip gun laws. They are not the same.

As I said, modifying an Airsoft toy to fire .22lr, could be found to be a zip gun, that's about as far as I would go against the 2nd A on this matter. Its a device not designed by a licensed firearm manufacturer that was modified into a firearm. But you have the whole tax exempt verbiage in the law???
You understand that I'm an attorney right? I've been an attorney for the better part of 2 decades... And that I'm not just talking out of my *** like you are? This isn't a political stance on my part... I'm telling you that this guy is breaking the law... And if you follow suit, YOU ARE TOO.

Your interpretation of the statute is TORTURED... And just plain WRONG, not to mention likely to land your *** and a lot of other people who don't know any better in jail...

LICENSED IMPORTERS (08 FFLs) DON'T NEED TO BE "LICENSED IMPORTERS" to import things that AREN'T GUNS! We're not talking about buying bamboo from Pier One Imports! We're talking about LICENSED FFLs, who NEED that to be licensed to import FIREARMS... THINGS THAT SHOOT BULLETS. Which makes your ridiculous argument not pass the Roll Eyes test... You try that with the ADA who has your case, he's going to laugh at you... You tell it to your own attorney he's going to try to be much more polite but he's going to say "yeah... Uh... That's not going to fly... Take the plea." And in his mind he's going to be saying "Thank god for people this stupid, because otherwise I'd have no work."

Look up the definition of the word "ZIP GUN" and you will see a picture of that contraption right next to it.... IF THIS ISN'T A "ZIP GUN" NOTING IS...

Seriously...Your argument is "the 2nd Amendment protects this"? Well then, go make a machine gun, put it up on youtube, and I'll send you care packages in prison.
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Last edited by RomanDad; 06-13-2013 at 4:56 AM..
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  #47  
Old 06-13-2013, 6:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanDad View Post
You understand that I'm an attorney right? I've been an attorney for the better part of 2 decades... And that I'm not just talking out of my *** like you are? This isn't a political stance on my part... I'm telling you that this guy is breaking the law... And if you follow suit, YOU ARE TOO.

Your interpretation of the statute is TORTURED... And just plain WRONG, not to mention likely to land your *** and a lot of other people who don't know any better in jail...

LICENSED IMPORTERS (08 FFLs) DON'T NEED TO BE "LICENSED IMPORTERS" to import things that AREN'T GUNS! We're not talking about buying bamboo from Pier One Imports! We're talking about LICENSED FFLs, who NEED that to be licensed to import FIREARMS... THINGS THAT SHOOT BULLETS. Which makes your ridiculous argument not pass the Roll Eyes test... You try that with the ADA who has your case, he's going to laugh at you... You tell it to your own attorney he's going to try to be much more polite but he's going to say "yeah... Uh... That's not going to fly... Take the plea." And in his mind he's going to be saying "Thank god for people this stupid, because otherwise I'd have no work."

Look up the definition of the word "ZIP GUN" and you will see a picture of that contraption right next to it.... IF THIS ISN'T A "ZIP GUN" NOTING IS...

Seriously...Your argument is "the 2nd Amendment protects this"? Well then, go make a machine gun, put it up on youtube, and I'll send you care packages in prison.
DiFi is an attorney, Obama is an attorney. They guy who runs the Brady camp is an attorney. They are also Civil Rights Attorneys and tout themselves as the leaders in the Bill of Rights. I really don't care what your profession is NOR DO I GIVE A RATS BUTT HOW LONG YOU HAVE DONE IT. DIFI has been doing it for 40 years... so that must mean my AR15 is a machine gun and illegal for a civilian to own right...that's what she says. She has her own way to read laws too.

You need to re-evaluate your stance on this.

A licensed importer of firearms, can import firearms. They declare the devices, They pay the taxes. They go bang, they are not zip guns, they are normal firearms.

A licensed importer of firearms cannot import items NOT declared as firearms, NOT pay taxes on those devices and then have them fire a projectile. That is ONE way to meet the zip gun law. Just because you have a license and permission to import firearms, doesnt give you the legal authority to import devices and not declare them as such to avoid paying taxes. Even if they finish "making" them in the US. Don't believe me? Call Umarex ( who is a Firearms manufacturer and importer of firearms) Ask them if they could import a few hundred MP5 80% lowers for you and use the 80% is paperweight ruling to not declare them as firearms See what they say.

A NON-licensed person cannot import a firearm, nor can they import a device not a firearm then convert it to a firearm for sale. You must pay your taxes and be licensed.

The whole (B) thing is in how you read it. There are millions of people, TENS OF MILLIONS of people, who say the 2ndA DOESN'T give an individual the right to own a firearm. many many many of them are 20+ year lawyers too.

The comment about making a machine gun is stupid. No one is saying the GCA or NFA is void in CA. Montana says it is VOID in their State, for their residents, but that's another topic for which I believe as well. I am sure you don't support Montana's right to say that either. Again that would be another topic for you and I to disagree on.

To answer this question you need to ask yourself what was the original intent of the law? The original intent was to stop a person from taking a device and turning it into a firearm. It was NEVER to be used to stop any person form making a firearm at home. People who hate firearms and do not support the 2ndA changed the meaning and now convinced people, even educated people it did.

I have no legal right to take a device and turn it into a firearm. That's a zip gun.

I have the legal right to design and make my own firearm. That's a legal firearm.

The next step for DiFi (and others who think like you) is to say (B) only allows manufacturers to make firearms, so 80% lower builds are zip guns. An 80% lower was not designed to be a firearm and starting at 921 dictates how licensed manufacturers legally manufacture firearms. An 80% is sold on the street, over the counter to anyone. Even a child, so it is not designed to be a firearm. How can you legally sell a device designed to be a firearm to a child? You do realize they have already suggested this.

And Furthermore, even if I am wrong on (B) or a jury decides I am wrong on it, you still have (C) to contend with. Private persons are exempt from paying taxes on home made firearms. A zip gun MUST meet all 4 criteria. And with the exemption that every person who made an AR15 took advantage of, you cannot call them zip guns.

Last edited by CWDraco; 06-13-2013 at 6:35 AM..
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  #48  
Old 06-18-2013, 8:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanDad View Post
It meets all of the criteria...

Start with D...
It fires a projectile. That makes it a gun as far as California is concerned.

Said existing gun a) was not imported by a Type 8 FFL licensed importer as a gun.

Said gun is not based on a pre-existing design by a Type 7 FFL licensed manufacturer. (Sorry, but this is how b. is interpreted. If you can find me the POS Caulk gun shotgun by a licensed 07 FFL that he based his design on, then maybe you have an argument... But I would bet money no such gun exists. )

C. No tax was paid.

Answer= ITS A ZIP GUN in California. Other states, that might be legal, but not CA.


You can manufacture your own firearm for personal use under ATF Rules... BUT... IN CALIFORNIA, it has to be based on a PREEXISTING DESIGN from a licensed manufacturer .... Or, its a zip gun.

SO you are an attorney and just read a small section of part C to prove your point. WOW, great job ATTORNEY!

Read the whole sentence of part C.

If I build a firearm for my personal use, no tax is required to be paid, like an EXEMPTION perhaps.

If I am required to pay a tax, then that's news to countless Americans. Call the FTB, they are going to want their tax money for everyone's finished 80% receivers.
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I was on a ride-along, and the officer i was with saw a parked car with occupants. He was going up to ask them to move their car and as soon as he gets to the window the passenger says "I have meth under my seat."

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  #49  
Old 06-18-2013, 8:45 AM
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Actually in this particular case, the shotgun would be an AOW, in which a tax is required to be paid. So if this guy paid the $200 AOW tax, then it would not be a zip gun.

BUT, RomanDad didn't make this point, I did. He thinks tax must be paid for other reasons.
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Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
I was on a ride-along, and the officer i was with saw a parked car with occupants. He was going up to ask them to move their car and as soon as he gets to the window the passenger says "I have meth under my seat."

I've never understood the self-confessors....
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  #50  
Old 06-18-2013, 11:28 AM
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This seems a lot safer. Still wouldn't recommend making one.

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  #51  
Old 06-18-2013, 11:57 AM
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Zip gun or not (I don't care who thinks what, I'd charge it and let the trier of fact sort it out), that thing is probably more dangerous at the breech than at the muzzle. Hopefully, the creator is the only one crazy enough to hold and fire it.
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  #52  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:35 AM
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I posted a reply with the testing of this shotgun and got banned for swearing. Even though someone on here was using the same language regarding my tattoos. So I created a new account and posted a reply that had no swear words and THAT response was deleted. I'm done. The moderators of this forum are worse that DiFi. Apparently the mods here choose which freedoms they'd like to support. It's a shame really, because I have heard this is a refuge for the free. Not the case.

If you want to see the shotgun in action, and working just as designed, you'll have to find it yourself. The mods clearly won't let me link to it. In fact, because I called them out on their hypocrisy and heavy handed ban hammer, this will probably be deleted as well and you'll never see it. Sad how they've become the very thing we're fighting against.
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  #53  
Old 07-17-2013, 1:08 PM
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If that doesn't meet the legal definition of a zip gun I don't know what does.

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  #54  
Old 07-17-2013, 5:51 PM
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If that doesn't meet the legal definition of a zip gun I don't know what does.

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then you don't know what does.
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Old 07-17-2013, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CWDraco View Post
then you don't know what does.
No, this is a zip gun.

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Old 07-17-2013, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CWDraco View Post
then you don't know what does.
I built it and test fired it. I also checked with local law enforcement and they said it was in the same vein as a 3D printed lower. It's perfectly legal, although the LEO I talked to thought it looked dangerous.

Here are the pics. http://imgur.com/a/FQGO0

And here are the two videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YBx0...ature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrpxe...ature=youtu.be I'm aware I misspoke in the video. The knife prevented the primer from being struck, not the firing pin.
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  #57  
Old 07-17-2013, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SacTown View Post
This seems a lot safer. Still wouldn't recommend making one.

I would be willing to do this, but not that other POS that I saw made from a caulking gun. At least this you can simply hide in different spots and when you need it, it is there. THIS has use. This is a great gun to have for SHTF and you let the goobers come in and take all your **** from you like a good little slave...


Wow, it just dawned on me. You people are STILL talking about this? Geeze, give it UP already. If you can't hold it and shoot it like a real gun then why bother make one? It is more like something out of the anarchist's cook book...

ZIP GUN, it is a firearm that follows no conventional firearm design, Illegal in CA...

i am not even wasting time here anymore. Adios, go make one and shoot it at the local range that allows shotguns...
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  #58  
Old 07-18-2013, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JDay View Post
No, this is a zip gun.

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how about you read the law and all the requirements to a zip gun before you post again. While some people raise an eye-brow at why this isn't a zip gun, the fact remains, ITS NOT.

Oh and just to make sure you know, an AR15 isn't an Assault Rifle even though I can list you 25+ Attorneys and several high ranking LEO who say it is.
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Old 07-18-2013, 8:11 PM
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Looks like some of the homemade guns seen in South Africa in the 70s and 80s. They'd last long enough to fire a round or two. I've seen even simpler constructs than the one in the link but I'm not about to write them out here!
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Old 07-19-2013, 9:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CWDraco View Post
DiFi is an attorney, Obama is an attorney. They guy who runs the Brady camp is an attorney. They are also Civil Rights Attorneys and tout themselves as the leaders in the Bill of Rights. I really don't care what your profession is NOR DO I GIVE A RATS BUTT HOW LONG YOU HAVE DONE IT. DIFI has been doing it for 40 years... so that must mean my AR15 is a machine gun and illegal for a civilian to own right...that's what she says. She has her own way to read laws too.

You need to re-evaluate your stance on this.

A licensed importer of firearms, can import firearms. They declare the devices, They pay the taxes. They go bang, they are not zip guns, they are normal firearms.

A licensed importer of firearms cannot import items NOT declared as firearms, NOT pay taxes on those devices and then have them fire a projectile. That is ONE way to meet the zip gun law. Just because you have a license and permission to import firearms, doesnt give you the legal authority to import devices and not declare them as such to avoid paying taxes. Even if they finish "making" them in the US. Don't believe me? Call Umarex ( who is a Firearms manufacturer and importer of firearms) Ask them if they could import a few hundred MP5 80% lowers for you and use the 80% is paperweight ruling to not declare them as firearms See what they say.

A NON-licensed person cannot import a firearm, nor can they import a device not a firearm then convert it to a firearm for sale. You must pay your taxes and be licensed.

The whole (B) thing is in how you read it. There are millions of people, TENS OF MILLIONS of people, who say the 2ndA DOESN'T give an individual the right to own a firearm. many many many of them are 20+ year lawyers too.

The comment about making a machine gun is stupid. No one is saying the GCA or NFA is void in CA. Montana says it is VOID in their State, for their residents, but that's another topic for which I believe as well. I am sure you don't support Montana's right to say that either. Again that would be another topic for you and I to disagree on.

To answer this question you need to ask yourself what was the original intent of the law? The original intent was to stop a person from taking a device and turning it into a firearm. It was NEVER to be used to stop any person form making a firearm at home. People who hate firearms and do not support the 2ndA changed the meaning and now convinced people, even educated people it did.

I have no legal right to take a device and turn it into a firearm. That's a zip gun.

I have the legal right to design and make my own firearm. That's a legal firearm.

The next step for DiFi (and others who think like you) is to say (B) only allows manufacturers to make firearms, so 80% lower builds are zip guns. An 80% lower was not designed to be a firearm and starting at 921 dictates how licensed manufacturers legally manufacture firearms. An 80% is sold on the street, over the counter to anyone. Even a child, so it is not designed to be a firearm. How can you legally sell a device designed to be a firearm to a child? You do realize they have already suggested this.

And Furthermore, even if I am wrong on (B) or a jury decides I am wrong on it, you still have (C) to contend with. Private persons are exempt from paying taxes on home made firearms. A zip gun MUST meet all 4 criteria. And with the exemption that every person who made an AR15 took advantage of, you cannot call them zip guns.
You have got to be freakin' kidding me
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  #61  
Old 07-19-2013, 5:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findout View Post
You have got to be freakin' kidding me
NO I am not kidding. Just because some guy says, "I'm a lawyer" doesn't mean they have the right or correct or the ONLY view on something.

No one who supports the 2nd Amendment should believe the US Government or any local or State government has the authority to tell you you cannot build _______. If _______ doesnt effect commerce and is a birth right spelled out in the Constitution.

You people give away your freedoms too easy. No wonder this State is a mess.

The ONLY reason the BATFE exist is due to commerce.
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Old 07-19-2013, 6:45 PM
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Not true. Someone has to be the meanie and take all the firecrackers away... And there we have the BATFE...

Seriously.

Although I admire your fight, you should prolly follow the CALGUNS FLOWCHART FOR CALIFORNIA SHOTGUNS:
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf
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Last edited by stilly; 07-19-2013 at 6:50 PM..
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  #63  
Old 07-19-2013, 7:13 PM
gator68 gator68 is offline
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CWDraco:
Look at the zip gun law again. You have to answer "true" to all four clauses.
"It was not legally imported" True
"Not designed by a licensed manufacturer" True
"No taxes paid" True
"Fires a projectile". True

All criteria true means it is a zip gun.

Makes you think. You may not like the implications, but that's what the law says.
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  #64  
Old 07-19-2013, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gator68 View Post
CWDraco:
Look at the zip gun law again. You have to answer "true" to all four clauses.
"It was not legally imported" True
"Not designed by a licensed manufacturer" True - Not everyone reads that this way and is where you are reading it wrong. This is where the law is unconstitutional if read the way you are reading it. Its ONLY constitutional if read the way I read it. The Government has no authority to tell you you can not make a firearm for personal use. They only have that authority for commerce.
"No taxes paid" True- you are EXEMPT from paying taxes as a non-manufacturer, that is there in the law, therefor this is FALSE.
"Fires a projectile". True

All criteria true means it is a zip gun.

Makes you think. You may not like the implications, but that's what the law says.
you are not reading it correctly. 2 outta 4 means its NOT a zip gun.
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  #65  
Old 07-20-2013, 5:46 AM
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Just to ram this home with the hive here...

So you guys think any gun that was not manufactured by a Licensed Firearm Manufacturer is illegal and is a "zip gun". The Government control the application and certification process under the laws stated.

***So all the Government has to do is deny all Licenses to make all guns illegal.**** Is that what you guys believe?

Yeah, OK, that's how it works.

Quote:
(B)It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
The Government has no authority to make a law which removes your rights under the US Constitution.

Hate speech is defined as any speech not spoken by a Reporter.

An illegal Cult is defined as any Religion who didn't apply for and was granted tax free Status.

The requirement, "It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed" means any device CONVERTED or not originally designed to be a firearm is a zip gun.

The firearm in this OP, WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to be a firearm, and the designer and maker is NOT required to be licensed under pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code
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  #66  
Old 07-20-2013, 1:38 PM
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He should name his new shotgun. Shrapnel sounds like a good name to me.
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  #67  
Old 07-21-2013, 9:52 AM
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Perhaps the most glaring design flaw in the originally posted caulk gun design is the lack of a locked breech.

The gun featured in the video below works, as the breech has some degree of containment (the co-axial pipes that slide together).



And people should listen to RomanDad. He knows of which he speaks.
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Last edited by Experimentalist; 07-21-2013 at 2:20 PM.. Reason: Edited to change spelling of "breach" to "breech"
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  #68  
Old 07-21-2013, 12:15 PM
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No breechblock, just a washer that holds part of the rim during firing.

Seems safe to me.
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