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  #1  
Old 06-11-2013, 8:20 AM
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Default Why don't ranges allow steel cased ammo?

I am sorry if this has been asked before, but why don't ranges allow steel cased ammo?

Will this stance change if CA bans lead ammo (for hunting of course)?
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  #2  
Old 06-11-2013, 8:23 AM
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steel bullets are verbotten in CA. The easy way to check is with a magnet. Steel cases can make that test harder to interpret. Also, some ranges prefer to avoid cleansing spent casings of non-brass materials before selling them off to be reloaded. Both rationales are flimy imho.
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Old 06-11-2013, 8:25 AM
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It's steel core (or bimetal jacket) that's the issue, not what the casing is made of. It's about penetration of backstop (indoors) or fire danger from sparks (outdoors).

Doubt you'll see any change at the range.
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Old 06-11-2013, 8:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Some Velvet-Fisted Brute View Post
steel bullets are verbotten in CA. The easy way to check is with a magnet. Steel cases can make that test harder to interpret. Also, some ranges prefer to avoid cleansing spent casings of non-brass materials before selling them off to be reloaded. Both rationales are flimy imho.
No they aren't "verboten" in CA. They're an issue at ranges(and it's not even specific to CA) that don't want the risk of fire down range, because it does happen.

Steel cases are actually quite easy to sift out. Magnets are amazing. However some ranges are simply lazy about it and don't care which part of the cartidge attracts a magnet, or they really are lazy about sorting ammo.
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Old 06-11-2013, 8:38 AM
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Seems odd to me that you can use steel on BLM land, but not at a range. If the fire risk is real, you'd think that would be an issue there too.
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Old 06-11-2013, 8:40 AM
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Originally Posted by North86 View Post
Seems odd to me that you can use steel on BLM land, but not at a range. If the fire risk is real, you'd think that would be an issue there too.
Uhh, you can use it at the range. You can't use it at some ranges. Visit an area of CA that actually has rainfall.
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Old 06-11-2013, 8:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
It's steel core (or bimetal jacket) that's the issue, not what the casing is made of. It's about penetration of backstop (indoors) or fire danger from sparks (outdoors).

Doubt you'll see any change at the range.
Yes. Very real issues.
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Old 06-11-2013, 9:28 AM
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Most of the outdoor ranges I've talk to in SoCal state the fire danger.

This may be due to the fear of liability and having to pay for a large scale fire caused by a range using steel ammo.
There is little actual danger of this happening but, it is possible.

It is a lazy range operation that takes this stance.

Ranges could employ fire protection devices and fire suppression techniques their local fire department could inspect and approve.

Cooperation with local fire department(s) by respective ranges and knowledge of local ordinance could change this situation.

This is not a theory.
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Old 06-11-2013, 9:28 AM
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west end gun club lest you shoot it, i do. private range. 50 bucks a year.
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Old 06-11-2013, 9:31 AM
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MSI outdoor range in Manteca allows steel cases in both pistol and rifle ranges.
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  #11  
Old 06-11-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
No they aren't "verboten" in CA. They're an issue at ranges(and it's not even specific to CA) that don't want the risk of fire down range, because it does happen.
PC 12320, 12321. No AP handgun ammo.

Quote:
Steel cases are actually quite easy to sift out. Magnets are amazing. However some ranges are simply lazy about it and don't care which part of the cartidge attracts a magnet, or they really are lazy about sorting ammo.
I did not say it wasn't a simple process. I said most ranges don't want to bother with.
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Last edited by Some Velvet-Fisted Brute; 06-11-2013 at 10:15 AM..
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Velvet-Fisted Brute View Post
PC 12320, 12321. No AP handgun ammo.



I did not say it wasn't a simple process. I said most ranges don't want to bother with.
Who specified handgun ammo? The OP didn't. You realize that steel core, and bi-metal jacket rifle rounds exist, right?

Ranges banning magnetic ammo has nothing to do with AP handgun ammo. It has to do with backstops and being a fire hazard. There are lots of ranges in CA(north of socal) that allow cartridges that attract magnets. Making a broad claim that "Steel bullets are verboten in CA" is a flatout lie.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-11-2013 at 10:26 AM..
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Latebraker View Post
Most of the outdoor ranges I've talk to in SoCal state the fire danger.

This may be due to the fear of liability and having to pay for a large scale fire caused by a range using steel ammo.

There is little actual danger of this happening but, it is possible
The actual danger is very real, and quite common. Proof postive is that whole out-of-control brush fires in the past were proven to have started at a shooting range backstop area. Google it; multiple times, to which the range in question conceded/acknowledged.

I've been at Angeles TWICE several years ago, where flare-ups on a sunny, hot day happened before my eyes on the rifle side. There are anecdotes, actual photos of fires, here on Calguns of other flare-ups as well having been started by steel-core ammo that went unchecked; once was just last summer (2012).

Brush is like gasoline on a hot day; the smallest spark from hitting a rock with steel core will flame up in seconds.
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If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?

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Old 06-11-2013, 11:10 AM
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OP if you are Northern Cali most public ranges will allow you to shoot steel core and bi-metal jacketed ammo. If you are in So Cal most public out door ranges will not let you shoot steel core and bi-metal jacketed ammo. This because of the potential fire hazards from a ricochet. The steel casing has nothing to do with it. There are some steel cased ammo that is lead core. I think Golden Bear? I am not 100% on this and you should ask around or do a search. This is a non issue for me since I live in Northern California.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:23 AM
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I am not lying. Those laws really do exist and really do outlaw AP hand gun ammo. I inadvertantly failed to make the distinction in my first post but you'd really have to be going full motard for that to get you so hot under the collar. May I suggest a Snickets bar?

The fact that steel core ammo is often of military origin it is not uncommon to also have a steel case. If you try to apply the magnet test to a steel cased steel core round, it can be difficult or impossible to find the steel core. Those cores typically begin behind the ogive and if it's a segmented projectile, it may very well be seated below the case mouth. I have been told this by a range safety officer. Believe it if you want or dismiss it if you don't. Just telling you what I know. The disrespectful, angry, and arrogant tone is completely unnecessary.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderNation View Post
OP if you are Northern Cali most public ranges will allow you to shoot steel core and bi-metal jacketed ammo. If you are in So Cal most public out door ranges will not let you shoot steel core and bi-metal jacketed ammo. This because of the potential fire hazards from a ricochet. The steel casing has nothing to do with it. There are some steel cased ammo that is lead core. I think Golden Bear? I am not 100% on this and you should ask around or do a search. This is a non issue for me since I live in Northern California.
Correct.

But in the past, I had been to a couple INDOOR ranges that claimed they don't allow steel-case, because they collect the brass. That's a dumb claim to have though, since all it takes is a long-handled "shop-sweeper" magnet (can buy them at Home Depot), such as those used for picking up filings, chips in the shop, or nails and screws at a construction site. And that people use aluminum cased ammo also negates their "no-steel" case arguments.
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What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Velvet-Fisted Brute View Post
I am not lying. Those laws really do exist and really do outlaw AP hand gun ammo. I inadvertantly failed to make the distinction in my first post but you'd really have to be going full motard for that to get you so hot under the collar. May I suggest a Snickets bar?

The fact that steel core ammo is often of military origin it is not uncommon to also have a steel case. If you try to apply the magnet test to a steel cased steel core round, it can be difficult or impossible to find the steel core. Those cores typically begin behind the ogive and if it's a segmented projectile, it may very well be seated below the case mouth. I have been told this by a range safety officer. Believe it if you want or dismiss it if you don't. Just telling you what I know. The disrespectful, angry, and arrogant tone is completely unnecessary.
m855 is very common and doesn't have a steel case, yet has a steel penetrator and will attract a magnet. Having a steel case would be one hell of a rarity. Again, you're making blanket nonsense statements and posting them as facts.

Comblock ammo that has bimetal jackets and/or steel cores will quite often have steel cases. However not all commie steel case ammo has steel core or bimetal jackets. BTW, bimetal jacket handgun ammo that will attract a magnet is not AP either.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-11-2013 at 11:31 AM..
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by North86 View Post
Seems odd to me that you can use steel on BLM land, but not at a range. If the fire risk is real, you'd think that would be an issue there too.
Who says you can use it on BLM land... Just because people shoot it on BLM doesn’t mean it’s allowed…

Check with your local field office if you need clarification.

http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/cdd/f...trictions.html

Firearms and Ammunition:
The possession or discharge of a firearm using incendiary, tracer, steel core, or armor piercing ammunition is hereby prohibited on all public lands of the California Desert District.

While it doesn’t specifically say bi-metal bullets… general rule of thumb… if it sparks when it hits steel or stocks it’s a no-go.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:33 AM
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Ok, so it seems that the use of steel cased ammo in SoCal is a reasonable concern.

Thanks all for the info!
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:40 AM
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Just want to be safe.
Comply with range policy.
We don't need additional laws.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North86 View Post
Ok, so it seems that the use of steel cased ammo in SoCal is a reasonable concern.

Thanks all for the info!
Steel cased or not… the issue is with the projectile. All my M855 is brass cases ammo, with a steel penetrator in a lead bullet.

Much of my steel cased ammo is bi-metal.

If you really want to test steel cased ammo, buy a bullet puller and remove the projectile and see if it sticks to a magnet. If it doesn’t, you are good. Ranges that don’t allow that type of ammo IMO are just too lazy to sort steel cases from their stash.

There are also outdoor ranges here in SoCal that allow steel case, steel penetrator, and bi-metal bullets. South Bay Rod and Gun being the one of them.
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  #22  
Old 06-11-2013, 12:46 PM
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I think it is a conspiracy to make people buy more expensive ammo.

-TFH
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Old 06-11-2013, 1:02 PM
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Rahauuges in Corona , outdoor range, ok to use steel
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Old 06-11-2013, 1:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North86 View Post
I am sorry if this has been asked before, but why don't ranges allow steel cased ammo?

Will this stance change if CA bans lead ammo (for hunting of course)?
Steel cases and lead projectiles are two completely different things, as i am sure you already know. Most of the ranges that limit steel cased ammo, simply don't want to take the time or effort to sort out the steel from the brass. Recycle value of steel is considerably less. .07-.09 per lb. for steel vs .90+ per pound for brass.

http://www.upstatemetal.com/prices.htm


Lead ammo bans are supposedly to protect carrion eaters and the environment.

If you have non lead projectiles, in an area that does not prohibit steel core projectiles, I believe you could use steel cased ammo (predators and carrion eaters don't eat casings). I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 06-11-2013, 1:54 PM
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Try $1.90 a pound for yellow brass at your recycling center.
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Old 06-11-2013, 2:25 PM
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It's because most ranges hate the whole AK/SKS crowd.
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Old 06-11-2013, 3:27 PM
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What gets me is I still find it time consuming to try to figure out which ammo offered for sale online will attract a magnet and which won't.
Evidently some "bi-metal" (copper over steel) cased ammo will attract a magnet, even though the core is lead.

There's a lot of good info on AR type ammo here:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

And here:

http://ammo-oracle.razoreye.net/
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
It's steel core (or bimetal jacket) that's the issue, not what the casing is made of. It's about penetration of backstop (indoors) or fire danger from sparks (outdoors).

Doubt you'll see any change at the range.
All steel cased ammo I've come across has had a bimetal jacket on the projectile.
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Old 06-12-2013, 2:25 AM
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At sac valley range, they simply snip the end of one of your bullets to insure that is lead core, then your good to go. They dont care about the jacket, just the core, steel core ammo is a no no at many ranges throughout the country not just ca.

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Old 06-12-2013, 2:48 AM
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At sac valley range, they simply snip the end of one of your bullets to insure that is lead core, then your good to go. They dont care about the jacket, just the core, steel core ammo is a no no at many ranges throughout the country not just ca.

Sailor
When they snip the tip do they have a mohel do it ?
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonofWWIIDI View Post
Steel cases and lead projectiles are two completely different things, as i am sure you already know. Most of the ranges that limit steel cased ammo, simply don't want to take the time or effort to sort out the steel from the brass. Recycle value of steel is considerably less. .07-.09 per lb. for steel vs .90+ per pound for brass.


Actually sorting out steel casing is the easy part! all they need is a magnet swept across where the casings are.
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Old 06-12-2013, 1:52 PM
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Because up until recently, most people didnt realize that most steel cased ammo also has steel bullets. Aside from wearing out your barrel, steel bullets have other drawbacks for indoor ranges (over penetration,damage in facility) and outdoors, fire danger from sparks. I think the brass scavenging/sorting issue is not really part of their logic in banning them, or at least not the main reason.

That copper wash on your Wolf bullets is only .008" thick,
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Old 06-12-2013, 3:12 PM
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FWIW Burro Canyon will allow steel jacket (not steel core) if it is actually wet on the ground/raining.

Steel case, but with lead bullet/copper jackets is fine if they are sure that it is just the case. May depend on the guy and how familiar he is.

I have seen a fire started with steel ammo off a rock.

It is not just the range's personal policy either. Some ranges have lease on public land, such as Burro which leases from the National Forest Service. And the NSF says no steel ammo. They are not about to risk their lease and millions of dollars in fire damage just so you can use some surplus ammo you bought.

Also have to bear in mind that besides the very real fire risk, especially in dry season, they have to have insurance for the range and the better they appear, the more affordable. You want these places to stay in business without exorbitant rates? I know Burro no longer allows any target with metal, except for the Cowboy Action group because they have their own insurance covering fire and liability, and are shooting cowboy loads anyways.
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Old 06-12-2013, 3:47 PM
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My outdoor range does. But its in WA so maybe they dont care
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Old 06-12-2013, 4:12 PM
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Why no steel case ammo? Money, that's why.

They can't make money off it (reloading/scrap) and costs them money to get rid of it.
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Old 06-12-2013, 4:21 PM
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STEEL IS ALLOWED IN NORCAL!
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by far from tactical View Post
When they snip the tip do they have a mohel do it ?

Must be, because he sucks on the tip right afterwards.

Sailor
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Old 06-13-2013, 1:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
Who says you can use it on BLM land... Just because people shoot it on BLM doesn’t mean it’s allowed…

Check with your local field office if you need clarification.

http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/cdd/f...trictions.html

Firearms and Ammunition:
The possession or discharge of a firearm using incendiary, tracer, steel core, or armor piercing ammunition is hereby prohibited on all public lands of the California Desert District.

While it doesn’t specifically say bi-metal bullets… general rule of thumb… if it sparks when it hits steel or stocks it’s a no-go.
This restriction also applies to NF land. It's your job to call ahead of time.
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  #39  
Old 06-13-2013, 1:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothing4u View Post
This restriction also applies to NF land. It's your job to call ahead of time.
NF / NP land like Anza anza borrego there is no shooting or ohv in that area... so I agree with you.

Unfortunately I've seen a bunch of no shooting signs that have been shot up while I was out wheeling... complete disrespect for the rules... pretty sad.
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  #40  
Old 06-13-2013, 2:54 AM
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