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  #1  
Old 05-11-2013, 2:55 PM
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Default wilson combat vs baer vs nhc when it comes to modifications

On WC's site it states no changes or something like that. But surely you can order them w/ no fcs, right?

Baer and Nighthawk allow this. Well, I don't know if they personally allow it, but dealers do send approved models with no fcs or slide markings and they get approved.

Last edited by Uncle Leo; 05-11-2013 at 3:35 PM..
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Old 05-11-2013, 3:08 PM
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According to Bill Wilson in the interview he did with Larry Vickers, the customer can order whatever they want.
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Old 05-11-2013, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by hossb7 View Post
According to Bill Wilson in the interview he did with Larry Vickers, the customer can order whatever they want.
The CALIFORNIA CUSTOMER ?

When googling all I found were people who said they couldn't change anything.
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Old 05-11-2013, 3:15 PM
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If the gun is being bought from a dealer, no mods are allowed due to the roster. After the sale, you can modify it however you like.
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Old 05-11-2013, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
If the gun is being bought from a dealer, no mods are allowed due to the roster. After the sale, you can modify it however you like.
So is it illegal to buy a Les Baer premier II with no fcs form Gunbroker or that crazy john guy? I know many people who have done this and nobody said anything because it just says Premier II on the list. No stock number. But Wilson seems to have stock numbers next to their approved models. Is this the reason mods for Baer's and Nighthawks seem to be ok?
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Old 05-11-2013, 4:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
So is it illegal to buy a Les Baer premier II with no fcs form Gunbroker or that crazy john guy? I know many people who have done this and nobody said anything because it just says Premier II on the list. No stock number. But Wilson seems to have stock numbers next to their approved models. Is this the reason mods for Baer's and Nighthawks seem to be ok?
The les bear website lists ten california rostered models of 1911s. The website clearly states that all orders must go through an FFL.

If you are buying it on gunbroker, it would have to be used and in-state to PPT.
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  #7  
Old 05-11-2013, 5:00 PM
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Wilson won't ship a gun to CA that's not in a CA approved configuration.

Wait is 1-2 years out for a custom pistol.

You could perhaps order through a dealer like MI Gunslingers and he could send it to an FFL of your choice who could SSE it, but seeing as SSE is dying at the end of the year this doesn't seem possible.
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Old 05-11-2013, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
So is it illegal to buy a Les Baer premier II with no fcs form Gunbroker or that crazy john guy? I know many people who have done this and nobody said anything because it just says Premier II on the list. No stock number. But Wilson seems to have stock numbers next to their approved models. Is this the reason mods for Baer's and Nighthawks seem to be ok?
Some people don't understand what features are exactly on a CA approved pistol, others may be interpreting the law differently.
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Old 05-11-2013, 5:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
The CALIFORNIA CUSTOMER ?

When googling all I found were people who said they couldn't change anything.
You didn't stipulate the customer being in California nor the concern with the handgun roster in your initial post.
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Old 05-11-2013, 6:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
The les bear website lists ten california rostered models of 1911s. The website clearly states that all orders must go through an FFL.

If you are buying it on gunbroker, it would have to be used and in-state to PPT.
If you buy it on Gunbroker, why does it have to be used and in state?
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  #11  
Old 05-11-2013, 7:02 PM
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My question really isn't getting answered
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Old 05-11-2013, 7:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
So is it illegal to buy a Les Baer premier II with no fcs form Gunbroker or that crazy john guy? I know many people who have done this and nobody said anything because it just says Premier II on the list. No stock number. But Wilson seems to have stock numbers next to their approved models. Is this the reason mods for Baer's and Nighthawks seem to be ok?
Why would it be illegal to buy a a Les Baer Premier II with no FCS. I don't see any where on the Ca Roster that refers to FCS. From what I read, the Ca roster says Les Baer Premier II/ Steel 5 inch barrel in .45ACP.

By the way, Crazy John understands the Ca a roster and will not ship off roster pistols unless done by SSE conversion.
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Old 05-11-2013, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate View Post
Why would it be illegal to buy a a Les Baer Premier II with no FCS. I don't see any where on the Ca Roster that refers to FCS. From what I read, the Ca roster says Les Baer Premier II/ Steel 5 inch barrel in .45ACP.

By the way, Crazy John understands the Ca a roster and will not ship off roster pistols unless done by SSE conversion.
I just don't get why Wilson seems to be adamant about no mods. Even minor ones like grips and serrations. But other custom builders seems to change things for ca buyers. Kinda odd. Maybe its just a Wilson Combat thing.
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  #14  
Old 05-11-2013, 7:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
I just don't get why Wilson seems to be adamant about no mods. Even minor ones like grips and serrations. But other custom builders seems to change things for ca buyers. Kinda odd. Maybe its just a Wilson Combat thing.
Not sure about Wilson. All I know is the make great 1911's!
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  #15  
Old 05-11-2013, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
My question really isn't getting answered
It has been answered.

Wilson will not ship guns to CA that are different to the ones they shipped for the CA drop test. It's that simple.

Some companies or FFLs may like to play looser or faster with the law, Wilson is not among them.
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:43 PM
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All companies have to follow the CA laws and anything (even minor) that was not on the gun submitted to be tested for the CA roster would be illegal. You can send the gun back to the company and have them upgrade or change whatever you want, but nothing before. If your wanting a gun configured a certain way straight from the factory, then you will have to do the SSE (single shot exemption). There is no other way around it unless your in law enforcement. If that doesn't answer the question then I don't know what will.
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  #17  
Old 05-12-2013, 2:06 AM
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Jumping in on how stupid the roster is on the CA DOJ website it says in red letters that pistols on list are allowed with or without night sights.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
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  #18  
Old 05-12-2013, 3:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
I just don't get why Wilson seems to be adamant about no mods. Even minor ones like grips and serrations. But other custom builders seems to change things for ca buyers. Kinda odd. Maybe its just a Wilson Combat thing.

It's not Wilson, it's the state of California. Once a handgun is on the approved roster, the manufacturer can not change at all. If they do (ie remove FCS), it's no longer on the approved roster. It's a new model that must go through the process for getting on roster.

I have a completely customized Wilson on order, but I will be getting it via SSE. You can do the same but timing is an issue. SSE's are expected to go away this year and with the current wait time, the probability of getting it before SSE disappears is low.

This is the same for the other manufacturers you mentioned above. If you want to buy one of their guns that is customized from an rostered version, it will need to be done via SSE.

Best bet is to call George at Gunslingers and see if there is anything he can do.
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Old 05-12-2013, 4:32 AM
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There are actually rules about this in the law.

PC 32030. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 32015 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.

(2) The material from which the grips are made.

(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.

(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.

(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the following:

(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.

(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer seeks to have listed under this section.

(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other respects identical to the listed firearm.

(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model complies with the requirements of this section.

This removes the requirement for a full retest for variants with minor modifications as listed in the law. However, the manufacturer must list each variant as a separate model. It cannot just make changes for a single customer. It is not clear whether a change in FCS would fit the letter of the law.
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Old 05-12-2013, 6:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
There are actually rules about this in the law.

PC 32030. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 32015 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.

(2) The material from which the grips are made.

(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.

(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.

(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the following:

(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.

(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer seeks to have listed under this section.

(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other respects identical to the listed firearm.

(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model complies with the requirements of this section.

This removes the requirement for a full retest for variants with minor modifications as listed in the law. However, the manufacturer must list each variant as a separate model. It cannot just make changes for a single customer. It is not clear whether a change in FCS would fit the letter of the law.
When you look at the Hand gun roster, for instance, Les Baer Premier II. Where can you find all the details such as FCS, Magwell, grips to confirm its approved other than make and model. Just curious, is there another list that describes what needs to be on the firearm?
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Old 05-12-2013, 8:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
The CALIFORNIA CUSTOMER ?

When googling all I found were people who said they couldn't change anything.
As a California customer you're restricted to the roster and the guns they offer without any changes. You can, however, send it back after you purchase it for whatever mods you wish...but obviously they can't remove FCS after the fact.

You can, however, SSE it and get whatever you want...said the guy that just got his Wilson 9mm CQB.
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Old 05-12-2013, 8:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate View Post
When you look at the Hand gun roster, for instance, Les Baer Premier II. Where can you find all the details such as FCS, Magwell, grips to confirm its approved other than make and model. Just curious, is there another list that describes what needs to be on the firearm?
This is what I was trying to say. Wilson has stock numbers or codes to identify their models. Baer and Nighthawk seems to be a lot more open. It just says GRP or Premier. No number or code. So those models with no fcs and magwell wouldnt be noticed in a dros process. I've known numerous people that got these configurations w/o using sse.
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Old 05-12-2013, 8:51 AM
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Easiest way to figure this out.

Call them.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
This is what I was trying to say. Wilson has stock numbers or codes to identify their models. Baer and Nighthawk seems to be a lot more open. It just says GRP or Premier. No number or code. So those models with no fcs and magwell wouldnt be noticed in a dros process. I've known numerous people that got these configurations w/o using sse.
It was a bad attempt at sarcasm in regards to the Handgun roster.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate View Post
When you look at the Hand gun roster, for instance, Les Baer Premier II. Where can you find all the details such as FCS, Magwell, grips to confirm its approved other than make and model. Just curious, is there another list that describes what needs to be on the firearm?
We don't know for certain, but I would suspect that there is more information in the database than the DOJ publicizes. A variant is probably marked as such in the database. Don't forget that the DOJ also has in its possession exemplars of the tested versions. They can always do spot checks of models being sold.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
We don't know for certain, but I would suspect that there is more information in the database than the DOJ publicizes. A variant is probably marked as such in the database. Don't forget that the DOJ also has in its possession exemplars of the tested versions. They can always do spot checks of models being sold.
With all the transactions being done on Firearms, I find it hard to believe they would do spot checks.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:38 AM
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Baer will let you customize any CA-roster gun to a certain degree.

No issues ordering one with a single-sided safety, no FCS, and naked slide (avatar picture).
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate View Post
With all the transactions being done on Firearms, I find it hard to believe they would do spot checks.
Spot checks on what is available in gun shops, not purchases by individuals.

They (DOJ) send an agent out to the field to make a purchase, and bring it back. They can then compare it against the exemplar they have in possession. They can also request an exemplar of a variant from a manufacturer at any time.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:43 AM
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I know when I ordered my Les Baer super-tac 1.5" I could not delete the FCS. I wanted no markings on the slide and strong side safety only. My LGS called Baer twice for me on different items I wanted, it was a no go.
It had to be ordered exactly they way it was placed on the roster. You can't even change the coating. It's BS.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
Baer will let you customize any CA-roster gun to a certain degree.

No issues ordering one with a single-sided safety, no FCS, and naked slide (avatar picture).
Interesting. So different makers have different ways of complying with the law.
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
Baer will let you customize any CA-roster gun to a certain degree.

No issues ordering one with a single-sided safety, no FCS, and naked slide (avatar picture).
You have two issues here...

Will the mfg make changes for you and will your FFL accept it. You'll want to make VERY sure your FFL is on board with this before you order the gun. I'd be very surprised if you can find one that will do this for you but who knows.

SSE is still the way to go in my opinion.
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Old 05-12-2013, 4:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
Spot checks on what is available in gun shops, not purchases by individuals.

They (DOJ) send an agent out to the field to make a purchase, and bring it back. They can then compare it against the exemplar they have in possession. They can also request an exemplar of a variant from a manufacturer at any time.
Interesting. So the DOJ is purchasing firearms from LGS?
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Old 05-12-2013, 4:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate View Post
Interesting. So the DOJ is purchasing firearms from LGS?
It is specified in the law that they can do that.

PC 32020. (a) The Attorney General may annually retest up to 5 percent of the handgun models that are listed on the roster described in subdivision (a) of Section 32015.
(b) The retesting of a handgun model pursuant to subdivision (a) shall conform to the following:

(1) The Attorney General shall obtain from retail or wholesale sources, or both, three samples of the handgun model to be retested.

(2) The Attorney General shall select the certified laboratory to be used for the retesting.

(3) The ammunition used for the retesting shall be of a type recommended by the manufacturer in the user manual for the handgun. If the user manual for the handgun model makes no ammunition recommendation, the Attorney General shall select the ammunition to be used for the retesting. The ammunition shall be of the proper caliber for the handgun, commercially available, and in new condition.

(c) The retest shall be conducted in the same manner as the testing prescribed in Sections 31900 and 31905.

(d) If the handgun model fails retesting, the Attorney General shall remove the handgun model from the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 32015.
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Old 05-12-2013, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
It is specified in the law that they can do that.

PC 32020. (a) The Attorney General may annually retest up to 5 percent of the handgun models that are listed on the roster described in subdivision (a) of Section 32015.
(b) The retesting of a handgun model pursuant to subdivision (a) shall conform to the following:

(1) The Attorney General shall obtain from retail or wholesale sources, or both, three samples of the handgun model to be retested.

(2) The Attorney General shall select the certified laboratory to be used for the retesting.

(3) The ammunition used for the retesting shall be of a type recommended by the manufacturer in the user manual for the handgun. If the user manual for the handgun model makes no ammunition recommendation, the Attorney General shall select the ammunition to be used for the retesting. The ammunition shall be of the proper caliber for the handgun, commercially available, and in new condition.

(c) The retest shall be conducted in the same manner as the testing prescribed in Sections 31900 and 31905.

(d) If the handgun model fails retesting, the Attorney General shall remove the handgun model from the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 32015.
No wonder the DOJ has stated they don't have the manpower. Look at all the BS they have created for themselves. Oh, that's right we are in Ca.! As long as they have busy work, they feel useful!
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Old 05-12-2013, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
Interesting. So different makers have different ways of complying with the law.
I guess it is hit and miss. I have never had an issue with Baer or Crazy John customizing an order with minimal changes. This is a discussed issue on 1911 Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
You have two issues here...

Will the mfg make changes for you and will your FFL accept it. You'll want to make VERY sure your FFL is on board with this before you order the gun. I'd be very surprised if you can find one that will do this for you but who knows.

SSE is still the way to go in my opinion.
I did the DROS through a very well known FFL on Calguns. They are very familiar with laws. No issues. I could have easily done a SSE through the same FFL but they stated there is no need to.
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Last edited by NiteQwill; 05-12-2013 at 6:20 PM..
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  #36  
Old 05-12-2013, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
Baer will let you customize any CA-roster gun to a certain degree.

No issues ordering one with a single-sided safety, no FCS, and naked slide (avatar picture).
Last we talked to Les (6 months ago) he would ship nothing that wasn't letter to the law here to CA ~ I mean: safeties, sights, you name it! Crazy John on the other hand...........
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