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  #1  
Old 04-16-2013, 7:21 AM
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Default FFL w/ lg cap mag permit sales

I have a few questions regarding sales of large capacity magazines, I am an FFL who just got my large capacity mag permit.

Can I sell out of state to residents of that state if its legal for them to own in that state?

What documentation is needed to justify sales like above and also as rebuild kits, mags converted to 10/30 type mags and of course to LEOs?

Thanks, this stuff is very confusing at times and I want to make sure I'm doing it right.
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  #2  
Old 04-16-2013, 11:34 AM
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You can sell the magazines to anyone if it is legal, so either out of state (depending on the state) or if the person in CA is exempt.

You need to log the magazines, so if you convert it to a 10 round magazine, you document that. If you sell it to someone who is exempt, you list who you sold it to. I would keep proof that the person is exempt for your own protection.

Not that it is accurate, but I was told that a CA FFL can not take apart a magazine to make it a parts kit. If you log the magazine in, then you would have to document that you took it apart, which means that there is a record of this. I don't know of any CA PC which would prevent that though.
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Old 04-16-2013, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You can sell the magazines to anyone if it is legal, so either out of state (depending on the state) or if the person in CA is exempt.

You need to log the magazines, so if you convert it to a 10 round magazine, you document that. If you sell it to someone who is exempt, you list who you sold it to. I would keep proof that the person is exempt for your own protection.

Not that it is accurate, but I was told that a CA FFL can not take apart a magazine to make it a parts kit. If you log the magazine in, then you would have to document that you took it apart, which means that there is a record of this. I don't know of any CA PC which would prevent that though.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2013, 1:51 PM
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As I said, it is what the DOJ said and there could be some issues with it. If you want to do it and take the risk, that is fine, but people should be aware that it could be a concern. You don't know that they won't do anything. Yes, if you read the law, it seems that it is exempt if the FFL sells it. All of that does not mean that the DOJ will not harass you or deny you the permit next year.
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  #5  
Old 04-17-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
As I said, it is what the DOJ said and there could be some issues with it. If you want to do it and take the risk, that is fine, but people should be aware that it could be a concern. You don't know that they won't do anything. Yes, if you read the law, it seems that it is exempt if the FFL sells it. All of that does not mean that the DOJ will not harass you or deny you the permit next year.
Actually, I was just FUDing your record keeping statements. The only thing that must be recorded is export and import. That is concrete in writing.

Yes, selling them to people is a much different can of worms and clearly I am in no hurry to do that either.

However, it might be fun if I had some large caps come December.
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  #6  
Old 04-17-2013, 1:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Not that it is accurate, but I was told that a CA FFL can not take apart a magazine to make it a parts kit. .

Why would a FFL or anyone not be able to disassemble a magazine into parts?
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  #7  
Old 04-17-2013, 1:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Actually, I was just FUDing your record keeping statements. The only thing that must be recorded is export and import. That is concrete in writing.

Yes, selling them to people is a much different can of worms and clearly I am in no hurry to do that either.

However, it might be fun if I had some large caps come December.
Go read the stuff that was sent out by the CA DOJ.
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  #8  
Old 04-17-2013, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by curvejunkie View Post
Why would a FFL or anyone not be able to disassemble a magazine into parts?
Because that is what the CA DOJ said. Not sure of why, not sure that it is accurate, but that is what I was told. It is just easier if the magazines come in parts so then you don't have to deal with it. I am not sure that it is allowed for a FFL to manufacture a large capacity magazine though since that is not one of exemptions for a FFL under the law, but perhaps it is allowed if you have a high capacity magazine permit (I should check on that).

The issue is that if you receive a magazine, you need to log it, then there is the issue of what you did with it.
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2013, 2:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Because that is what the CA DOJ said. Not sure of why, not sure that it is accurate, but that is what I was told. It is just easier if the magazines come in parts so then you don't have to deal with it. I am not sure that it is allowed for a FFL to manufacture a large capacity magazine though since that is not one of exemptions for a FFL under the law, but perhaps it is allowed if you have a high capacity magazine permit (I should check on that).
ANYONE can manufacture magazines without any permits whatsoever as long as...
Quote:
32440. Section 32310 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for any federal,
state, county, city and county, or city agency that is charged with
the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees in the
discharge of their official duties, whether on or off duty, and where
the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course and
scope of their duties.
(b) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for use by a
sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with
Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, who is authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of that officer's duties.
(c) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for export or for
sale to government agencies or the military pursuant to applicable
federal regulations.
All you have to do is claim you are manufacturering the magazine for sale to government agencies or the military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The issue is that if you receive a magazine, you need to log it, then there is the issue of what you did with it.
Ok, the DOJ is contradicting themselves.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pd...CLIcmpapp.pdf?

Quote:
A permit is not required for the lawful sale of large-capacity magazines within the state to persons authorized to obtain them under Penal Code sections 32400 through 32450, such as law enforcement agencies, peace officers, other licensed firearms dealers, armored car companies, museums, and theatrical companies.
So we don't need permits for lawful sale. However, the very next sentence is

Quote:
Record keeping requirements include the maintenance of records of sales for all transactions, including a copy of the photo identification of the peace officer or licensed firearms dealer, a copy of the official invoice of the law enforcement agency, or an authorization letter on the letterhead of the company to which the sale is being made. The records must be maintained at the dealership location for three years and, upon request, be made available to law enforcement.
However, if I don't need the permit to sell, then I don't need to follow those rules. Further, those rules do not exist in the 11 CCR 5483 which states
Quote:
Permittees shall maintain acquisition and disposition transaction records of the importation and exportation of large-capacity magazines. Records shall include transaction date, transaction volume; and the name, address, and Federal Firearms License number (if any) of the out of state transferee or transferor. Records must be maintained at the dealership for three years and be made available to representatives of the DOJ or any other law enforcement agency upon request.
Further their own form states that importation and exportation are the only records required to be maintained for the permit.
Quote:
A permit is required for the import or export of large-capacity magazines. Large-Capacity Magazine Permits will be issued, upon request, to licensed firearms dealers on the DOJ Centralized List of Firearms Dealers whose businesses have a bona fide marketplace for the import or export of large-capacity magazines. Pursuant to Penal Code section 32315, you must have a permit issued by the DOJ to engage in the import or export of large-capacity magazines. Large-capacity magazine permittees will be required to maintain acquisition and disposition records for all large-capacity magazines they purchase, import or export. The records must be maintained at the dealership location for three years and upon request, be made available to law enforcement.
So basically, the DOJ has no authority to require records on any large capacity magazines that you do not import or export. The only consequence if you are not maintaining those records for your permit is you will lose your permit.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 04-17-2013 at 2:38 PM..
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  #10  
Old 04-17-2013, 3:08 PM
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Ok, but there is nothing that says i cant disassemble a magazine into parts and sell the parts. That was my question.
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Old 04-17-2013, 3:32 PM
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You mean other than the CA DOJ saying that you can't?

I don't know of anything, but how you log it could be an issue.
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Old 04-17-2013, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You mean other than the CA DOJ saying that you can't?
Yes, where do they say that?
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Old 04-18-2013, 8:50 AM
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When you call them, they say that.
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Old 04-18-2013, 9:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
When you call them, they say that.
Ok, gotcha
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:23 AM
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i am confused how the law actually works as there seems to be no "prohibited buyers" other than felons
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Old 05-08-2013, 5:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You can sell the magazines to anyone if it is legal, so either out of state (depending on the state) or if the person in CA is exempt.

You need to log the magazines, so if you convert it to a 10 round magazine, you document that. If you sell it to someone who is exempt, you list who you sold it to. I would keep proof that the person is exempt for your own protection.

Not that it is accurate, but I was told that a CA FFL can not take apart a magazine to make it a parts kit. If you log the magazine in, then you would have to document that you took it apart, which means that there is a record of this. I don't know of any CA PC which would prevent that though.
Is there an easy reference of which states have which magazine laws? Or should I start doing some heavy reading?
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Old 05-08-2013, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by IronWorksTactical View Post
Is there an easy reference of which states have which magazine laws? Or should I start doing some heavy reading?
Not that I am aware of, plus it has been changing recently. If you find a good reference, please post it.
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  #18  
Old 05-08-2013, 8:31 PM
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I will start researching this and post if I find anything.
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Old 05-09-2013, 2:17 PM
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is it illegal for a ffl with a large capacaity permit to sell to any californian?

i cannot see the law that would be broken

its not illegal to buy them and its only legal to sell them with the permit
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Old 05-09-2013, 2:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
is it illegal for a ffl with a large capacaity permit to sell to any californian?
The FFL having a large capacity magazine permit could be an issue since additional restrictions might apply, but I am not aware of any.

My reading of the law, which conflicts with the CA DOJ view of the law, is that a person license under the CA PC as a FFL (there are specifics code section) is not restricted in who they can buy or sell the so-called large capacity magazines to or from, so my reading of the CA PC is that it is not illegal for a FFL to sell magazines to anyone without restrictions.

When I asked the CA DOJ about this, the person I was talking to got very upset, more so than I have ever seen. I suspect he knew the truth, but could not admit it and got somewhat trapped and the result was his getting upset so as he did not have to answer anything further.

Quote:
i cannot see the law that would be broken
I agree, but the CA DOJ does not.

Quote:
its not illegal to buy them and its only legal to sell them with the permit
Incorrect. The permit allows for the importation of the magazines, not the sale of the magazines. The CA PC exempts sales to or from a CA FFL without restrictions.

With all that said, I would not suggest any FFL do that since problems might occur. On the other hand, if you know of someone with a lot of money and you know of a person who is willing to make money and perhaps spend some time in jail and deal with court cases and lawsuits, then I have an idea to make a lot of money with this.
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