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Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

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  #1  
Old 05-02-2013, 12:33 AM
letsgosteelers letsgosteelers is offline
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Default AW Flowchart question re: .22 rimfire?

Can anyone tell me where specifically a 22 rimfire rifle is NOT identified as an assault weapon?

The flowchart states...

Is the rifle chambered in a Rimfire cartridge?
YES -->
NOT an Assault Weapon, AW Laws do not apply to rimfire rifles.

The reason I ask is the following appears to show that a 22 rimfire is classisifed as an AW.

CA DOJ Website - Assault Weapons Identification Guide

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/awguide

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/ag...s/awguide.pdf?

p.66

CATEGORY 2
AK and AR-15 Series Weapons (Kasler v. Lockyer)
...

It is important to note that removal of a firearm’s characteristics does not affect its status as a Category 2 assault weapon. A Category 2 assault weapon is still an assault weapon even if it has no Category 3 (SB 23 - generic characteristics) features.

Category 2 assault weapons may be of any caliber, including .22 caliber rimfire.



Thanks for the help!

Last edited by letsgosteelers; 05-02-2013 at 12:39 AM..
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  #2  
Old 05-02-2013, 1:18 AM
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I can't answer your question extensively, but I imagine it has something to do with PC 12276.1:

Quote:
California Penal Code Section 12276.1

(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(a) pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(b) thumbhole stock.
(c) folding or telescoping stock
(d) grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(e) flash suppressor.
(f) forward pistol grip.
Interesting question though! I'll be looking forward to a much more educated answer too!
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Old 05-02-2013, 1:53 AM
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Category 2 is what is commonly called "Banned by Name"
Category 3 is what is commonly called "Banned by Features" also known as the Evil Features.

Category 2 supersedes Category 3
If you have a Category 2 that is not a RAW there is no amount of changing features to make it legal.

Category 3 for rifles applies to semiautomatic Centerfire as roushstage2 posted.

Thing is if your firearm is banned by name it does not matter what features you do or do not have.
That is why there are questions 3,4,5 on the flow chart before you get to 6 about rimfire.

Without looking at the banned by name list, off the top of my head, late at night I can not think of a rifle that is banned by name that is natively chambered in 22LR but there are many AR types that are listed that you could drop a rimfire bolt or upper into it. The note you found mentions that if that was the case that does not change the rifles status to not be "banned by name" and is still illegal even if it is rimfire.
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Old 05-02-2013, 6:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos47 View Post
Category 2 is what is commonly called "Banned by Name"
Category 3 is what is commonly called "Banned by Features" also known as the Evil Features.

Category 2 supersedes Category 3
If you have a Category 2 that is not a RAW there is no amount of changing features to make it legal.

Category 3 for rifles applies to semiautomatic Centerfire as roushstage2 posted.

Thing is if your firearm is banned by name it does not matter what features you do or do not have.
That is why there are questions 3,4,5 on the flow chart before you get to 6 about rimfire.

Without looking at the banned by name list, off the top of my head, late at night I can not think of a rifle that is banned by name that is natively chambered in 22LR but there are many AR types that are listed that you could drop a rimfire bolt or upper into it. The note you found mentions that if that was the case that does not change the rifles status to not be "banned by name" and is still illegal even if it is rimfire.
exactly. you could have a listed .22LR AW which is covered by questions 3-5, but if you get past the listed models, then you only have to worry about the features ban, and .22lr rifles can't be AWs by feature so that is why question 6 is there.
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Old 05-02-2013, 9:25 AM
letsgosteelers letsgosteelers is offline
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On pg 4-5
Category 2. AK and AR-15 Series Weapons

The California Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989 in Kasler v. Lockyer. This decision took effect August 16, 2000. Effective August 16, 2000, firearm models that are variations of the AK or AR-15, with only minor differences from those two models, are assault weapons under the original Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989. AK and AR-15 series weapons were controlled as of August 16, 2000, and must have been registered as assault weapons with the Department of Justice on or before January 23, 2001. The only legal option for Category 2 assault weapons that were not registered on or before January 23, 2001, is to surrender them to law enforcement pursuant to Penal Code section 12288. These assault weapons are controlled regardless of whether they have Category 3 (Penal Code section 12276.1 - SB 23) characteristics.
on Pg 72 it goes into further detail...
Caliber has no bearing on a weapon’s status as a series weapon and should be disregarded when making an identification. For example, upper receiver conversion kits are available to convert almost any AR series
weapon into .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 7.62 X 39 mm, 9 mm, 10 mm, or .223 caliber.

The makes and models provided in this guide include those which the Department of Justice was able to locate prior to printing this booklet. It is probable that some series weapons in circulation are unknown to
the Department of Justice. If you encounter a suspected series weapon that is not specifically named in this booklet, please contact the Firearms Division at (916) 263-4887 for identification of that weapon. Additional assault weapon models as they are identified will be included in future versions of this guide and will be posted on the Firearms Division website at www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/awguide/.
This to me means if it currently is not listed, it could be in the future as we (DOJ) become aware of it so if it is not listed by Name today, it could be in the future.

Also, I'm not clear where its defined that one category supercedes the other or which overules the other or if it just meets ANY of these categories its an AW but as I read it each stands on its own.

This has to be WRONG, but I would just like to know where specifically a 22 rimfire rifle such as the S&W M&P 15-22 (or similar) is NOT considered an assault weapon. Not only that, but that would imply that any variation of those AK/AR listed weapons would be considered AW's as well and that just can't be the case. This would open up a huge can of worms but it has to have been addressed somewhere, I just can't seem to find it.

Please tell me I'm wrong and thank you for your help!!

Last edited by letsgosteelers; 05-02-2013 at 9:44 AM..
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos47 View Post
Without looking at the banned by name list, off the top of my head, late at night I can not think of a rifle that is banned by name that is natively chambered in 22LR but there are many AR types that are listed that you could drop a rimfire bolt or upper into it. The note you found mentions that if that was the case that does not change the rifles status to not be "banned by name" and is still illegal even if it is rimfire.
This is the part that I didn't get when looking at that last night. Thanks for the explanation!
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgosteelers View Post
On pg 4-5
Category 2. AK and AR-15 Series Weapons

The California Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989 in Kasler v. Lockyer. This decision took effect August 16, 2000. Effective August 16, 2000, firearm models that are variations of the AK or AR-15, with only minor differences from those two models, are assault weapons under the original Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989. AK and AR-15 series weapons were controlled as of August 16, 2000, and must have been registered as assault weapons with the Department of Justice on or before January 23, 2001. The only legal option for Category 2 assault weapons that were not registered on or before January 23, 2001, is to surrender them to law enforcement pursuant to Penal Code section 12288. These assault weapons are controlled regardless of whether they have Category 3 (Penal Code section 12276.1 - SB 23) characteristics.
on Pg 72 it goes into further detail...
Caliber has no bearing on a weapon’s status as a series weapon and should be disregarded when making an identification. For example, upper receiver conversion kits are available to convert almost any AR series
weapon into .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 7.62 X 39 mm, 9 mm, 10 mm, or .223 caliber.

The makes and models provided in this guide include those which the Department of Justice was able to locate prior to printing this booklet. It is probable that some series weapons in circulation are unknown to
the Department of Justice. If you encounter a suspected series weapon that is not specifically named in this booklet, please contact the Firearms Division at (916) 263-4887 for identification of that weapon. Additional assault weapon models as they are identified will be included in future versions of this guide and will be posted on the Firearms Division website at www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/awguide/.
This to me means if it currently is not listed, it could be in the future as we (DOJ) become aware of it so if it is not listed by Name today, it could be in the future.

Also, I'm not clear where its defined that one category supercedes the other or which overules the other or if it just meets ANY of these categories its an AW but as I read it each stands on its own.

This has to be WRONG, but I would just like to know where specifically a 22 rimfire rifle such as the S&W M&P 15-22 (or similar) is NOT considered an assault weapon. Not only that, but that would imply that any variation of those AK/AR listed weapons would be considered AW's as well and that just can't be the case. This would open up a huge can of worms but it has to have been addressed somewhere, I just can't seem to find it.

Please tell me I'm wrong and thank you for your help!!
CADOJ has not updated the AW guide to reflect case law such as Harrott v County of Kings. Harrott is mentioned on the flowchart and it basically says that the AR and AK "series" bans are void and that the AG has to make a list specifically stating what make/model is covered under the "name ban". the S&W M&P 15-22 is not on any such list, and is therefore considered off-list.
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  #8  
Old 05-02-2013, 12:32 PM
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You are working with a guide book not the actual law. It is good that you are trying to find out all this information for yourself. I have read this guide book as well and it is a good tool. One of my favorite things in it is found on pg 74
Quote:
Possession of large capacity magazines, whether by peace officers or private citizens, is not controlled.
But it is not a substitute for the actual law. If you get arrested you will be charged under the Penal Code, not the "Assault Weapons Identification Guide"

You posted that they plan on adding more firearms in future editions:
Well they have not updated the book since 3rd EDITION - November 2001
DOJ planned to add more to the list and planned to count ones that were of similar type. I can't remember why they did not, I believe there was a court case that struck this idea down. But I will let someone else answer this for sure. Edit: ke6guj posted it above while I was writing this.


If you are new to reading laws it is important to understand this:
Laws do not tell you what you can do they tell you what you can not do


These are the renumbered laws that are listed on the front page of the "Assault Weapons Identification Guide":
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/30510.html
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/30515.html (This is the renumbered section that is posted above and once again below)

Quote:
30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also
means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length
of less than 30 inches.
Note under 1 it says semiautomatic, centerfire rifle. Therefore it does not apply to rimfire, nor does it apply to any action that is not semiautomatic even if it is centerfire.
Same thing under 2
Same thing under 3 so the legal length limit of rimfire falls to Federal limit of 26"

The way you find that one category supersedes the other is a full understanding of the law.
As I allready tried to explain:
If your firearm is banned by name there is nothing you can do now to make it legal, no changing of features or configuration changes the fact that it is banned by name.
If your firearm is just banned by features then you can configure it to be legal.

S&W M&P 15-22 is not an AW nor is a real AR that has a Off List Lower (OLL) with a rimfire upper or drop in bolt. They do not meet the PC statement of "semiautomatic, centerfire rifle" Remember like I said the law tells you what you can not do not what you can. That is why since rimfire is not mentioned that they are not illegal.

Note all this could change if current bills pass. SB347 But please let's not delude this into another thread about theoretical what if's thread that helps the enemy right better bills.

Other important side note under CAPC 30515 when it comes to Pistols:
Rimfire is included as the law says "semiautomatic pistol" with no mention of centerfire so it therefore applies to rimfire as well.
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Last edited by Chaos47; 05-02-2013 at 12:35 PM..
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