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  #41  
Old 04-29-2013, 6:26 PM
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That link sums it up with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Box of Truth
4. Birdshot does not excessively penetrate drywall walls. But it does not penetrate deeply enough to reach a bad guy's vital organs. Birdshot makes a nasty but shallow wound. It is not a good Stopper.

Use Birdshot for little birds. Use 00 Buckshot for bad guys.
Though my preference from point of view is for #4 buck and being able to reliably hit what I'm aiming at.
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  #42  
Old 04-29-2013, 7:17 PM
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"Birdshot lacks penetration to reach vital organs" is a myth. People need to stop thinking birdshot is not lethal That's 100% not true.


I agree people need to decide which loads to use in "their" environment..Not every defense plan or weapon is going to be the catch all way to defend yourself. Though people DO need the proper facts when putting a plan together. In my case...I live in apartment with neighbors on 3 sides and a roomate. This situation makes penetration super important for my defensive plane of action. If I lived on a farm all by myself slugs and buckshot would probably be the way to go. Making good decisions before the need for deadly force arises will make the differance in if you and your family live or die or you spend 25 years in prison. Just like an escape plan in case of a fire in your home. Providing a plan of action will make the differance imo.
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Last edited by negolien; 04-29-2013 at 7:22 PM..
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  #43  
Old 04-29-2013, 7:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by negolien View Post
"Birdshot lacks penetration to reach vital organs" is a myth. People need to stop thinking birdshot is not lethal That's 100% not true.
I was standing next to a guy once that dropped a charging pig with a 20 gauge Mossberg 500, loaded with #8 bird-shot. We were hunting quail and the dog spooked it out from under a tree. He let it get to within 5 yards or so, and hit it between the eyes.

Granted the pig was only about 120lbs or so, but at that range the birdshot behaved almost like a slug.

After seeing that first hand, I can tell you for sure that I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.
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  #44  
Old 04-29-2013, 9:54 PM
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Opinions are opinions
Facts are facts

Yes bird shot kills at close range
No it will not penetrate multiple walls

All the links you have posted against birdshot as HD are either people voicing options with no facts to back them up OR the videos that have "proof" are at greater distances than one would see in a typical home.

If over penetration is not important to you now, when SHTF and Big Bubba is you new roommate... Over "penetration" won't be important to him either.
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  #45  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:37 PM
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Birdshot won't be as bad on the walls but you will still stop the threat with birdshot.
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  #46  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by negolien View Post
"Birdshot lacks penetration to reach vital organs" is a myth. People need to stop thinking birdshot is not lethal That's 100% not true.
I think the proper statement is:
Birdshot lacks the penetration to reliably reach the vital organs with enough oomph to do permanent damage necessary to practically guarantee stopping the violent attacker.

I choose to believe that the FBI was onto something when they suggested at least 12 inches of penetration into bare gelatin for defensive loads; #4 buck has around 11.5 inches, good enough for me. Birdshot is closer to 5 or 6 inches of penetration, less if there is heavy clothing involved. Meanwhile #4 buck penetrates about 6 sheets of sheetrock, for my situation that's probably good enough. Lastly, we live in a 3D world and the chance of anyone accidentally catching a stray is pretty remote, especially if you hit your target.

I made my decision long ago, I still stand by it, I hope to never find out firsthand if I was right. You are free to make the decision you think is most appropriate. If I was going to trust my life to being protected by someone with a shotgun, I'd request they use buckshot or slugs.

Have any of you birdshot proponents thought about using something other than #8? Perhaps a load of T shot or BBB?
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  #47  
Old 04-30-2013, 7:10 AM
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The facts are simple and no amount of semantics will change it. Birdshot is 100% deadly within 20 feet or less PERIOD... We have seen #8 birdshot go thru a full set of ribs and into meat at longer range than most people would be at if engaging a threat at home. We have seen it go thru a FULL wall at like 20 feet and actually get a little penetraion on a 2nd wall. People just need to stop parsing their statements and accept the fact that birdshot is going to be deadly to an intruder beaking into your home if you hit him. We have also seen that Buckshot will with 100% certainty get alot of penatration evan at 20 feet and will go thru MULTIPLE walls.
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  #48  
Old 04-30-2013, 7:29 AM
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All of the talk about bird shot is for birds, is just talk. In 1978 my partner was promoted to sgt.
On Labor Day weekend of that year, he and his roommate were ambushed as they returned home. He was shot with a .410, loaded with bird shot, at close range. Before he died, he got off 5 rounds from his .38. The suspect was hit 5 times in the upper torso and ran about 50 yards before he died.

All of you keyboard ballistic experts can bite me and STFU.
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  #49  
Old 04-30-2013, 7:35 AM
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The discussion is not whether bird shot might be effective at stopping a threat or whether it could be lethal. The discussion is whether it is a wise choice for defensive ammo.

A .22 handgun may stop a threat and even be lethal; however, most would agree that it is not an ideal choice for a defensive handgun for most people.
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  #50  
Old 04-30-2013, 7:43 AM
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Stick with one load no less than #4 buck for HD. Pattern it and test it at different distances and practice. The shotgun is call the thinking man's gun. You can swap loads on the fly. If you feel you may need slugs. Get a side saddle and put a couple on there but you probably don't need to be counting rounds in your tube to know what is coming out next. In a situation that you may need to use it, you don't want to complicate things. You want things as predictable for you as you can make it. Keep it simple.
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  #51  
Old 04-30-2013, 8:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe'Bronco View Post
I agree, i keep the handgun for home protection. Although nothing says, "You mess with me, your gunna die" like the rack of a shotgun.

I have always said that multi round types are best for home defence. It lets you get your point across starting with a potentially lethal round and moving up. By the time you shoot the Buck or Slug your family/neighbors should know to either hit the ground or GTFO of the way.

First shot - #7.5
Second - #4
Third - OO Buck (or Dime load)
Forth - Slug
Fifth - Slug
No offence, but in a life or death situation I want as much firepower I can get in the first shot.
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  #52  
Old 04-30-2013, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelohamr View Post
All of you keyboard ballistic experts can bite me and STFU.
Well, this keyboard ballistician will not STFU just out of spite now.

Birdshot is not a reliable threat stopper.
Buckshot is a more reliable threat stopper, all things considered, than birdshot.
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  #53  
Old 04-30-2013, 9:05 AM
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LOL too funny to see people try an argue we should "believe" them when there is concrete video proof that shows how the 2 main loads we are talking about perform.


If someone wants to say they use 00 or slugs because they are not worried about penetration and want to make 100% sure that they put a guy down that's totally acceptable as an answer. Don't try and blow sunshine up our a**** and say we should "believe you" when the Tests 100% prove how loads perform. That's bad information that could get people killed.
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  #54  
Old 04-30-2013, 9:11 AM
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I think the big ignored question is how many HD over penetrations have resulted in injuries? I just don't read about them in fact I don't recall ever reading about one.
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  #55  
Old 04-30-2013, 9:19 AM
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True but like all defensive shootings the Main Stream Media will intentionally leave out important facts that support legal use of deadly force. The dry wall tests should make people stop and think about how their loads will perform in a case of Self Defense and that goes for all loads and defense plans. Re-evaluating your loads and plans should be looked at consistantly as information changes.
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  #56  
Old 04-30-2013, 9:55 AM
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Again, there are times you will want to be able to shoot through a wall, door, couch, refrigerator, etc. Why to people always think the encounter will be with a bad guy within 20 feet, standing in the wide open, with a t-shirt on, facing you with their chest exposed?
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  #57  
Old 04-30-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
I was standing next to a guy once that dropped a charging pig with a 20 gauge Mossberg 500, loaded with #8 bird-shot. We were hunting quail and the dog spooked it out from under a tree. He let it get to within 5 yards or so, and hit it between the eyes.

Granted the pig was only about 120lbs or so, but at that range the birdshot behaved almost like a slug.

After seeing that first hand, I can tell you for sure that I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.
That is a great story, but you state that it was a head shot at 5yds. A head shot a t 15ft with almost anything can stop a threat. Unfortunately many times we do not have that luxury.

Birdshot does NOT behave like a slug at close range. Please stop spreading misinformation.

#8 shot


Slug


Add some heavy leather or thick jackket in front of the #8 shot and penetration is reduced even more.
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  #58  
Old 04-30-2013, 1:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieb90 View Post
. . .
Add some heavy leather or thick jackket in front of the #8 shot and penetration is reduced even more.
Consider shooting someone wearing a heavy leather jacket from the side. The shot may have to go through a leather jacket, the arm, the bone, back through the jacket, back through the jacket a third time, through skin and ribs, and then gets to the good stuff.
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  #59  
Old 04-30-2013, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieb90 View Post

Birdshot does NOT behave like a slug at close range. Please stop spreading misinformation.
I apologize, I didn't see you standing with us when the event occurred.

Your pics of the gel are nice, but I witnessed 1st hand what happened to the pig's head. You weren't there, but you're calling me a liar? Maybe you ought to go out and actually shoot something to see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
Granted the pig was only about 120lbs or so, but at that range the birdshot behaved almost like a slug.
Reading comprehension, lesson 1

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  #60  
Old 04-30-2013, 2:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
I apologize, I didn't see you standing with us when the event occurred.

Your pics of the gel are nice, but I witnessed 1st hand what happened to the pig's head. You weren't there, but you're calling me a liar? Maybe you ought to go out and actually shoot something to see what happens.



Reading comprehension, lesson 1
Not saying it didnt happen, just saying ya'll were lucky.
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  #61  
Old 04-30-2013, 2:11 PM
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Quote:
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Not saying it didnt happen, just saying ya'll were lucky.
I'll agree with that. It is good to be lucky when you don't have a choice.
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Old 04-30-2013, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
I apologize, I didn't see you standing with us when the event occurred.

Your pics of the gel are nice, but I witnessed 1st hand what happened to the pig's head. You weren't there, but you're calling me a liar? Maybe you ought to go out and actually shoot something to see what happens.



Reading comprehension, lesson 1
To quote myself if I may.
Quote:
That is a great story, but you state that it was a head shot at 5yds. A head shot a t 15ft with almost anything can stop a threat. Unfortunately many times we do not have that luxury.
Did I ever call you a liar? Did I ever say that your story was fabricated? What I did say is that a close range head shot with birdshot may have that effect. However we will not have that luxury in most situations.

Yes reading comprehension is important.

There are also plenty of stories where people have dropped pigs with .22s , and of course Gamo airguns. Does that make them a good choice for self defense?

Also note that the shot only needs to penetrate the skull after that the brain is an enclosed space, and is very easily damaged. Even then there are cases of people surviving head shots with shotguns. In order to penetrate into vital organs much more penetration is required.

I have shot plenty of stuff thank you. Birdshot doesn't even make it all the way through a 1 gallon milk jug most of the time. It may behave like a slug for a fraction of an inch of initial penetration, but each pellet will then take it's own path through tissue with penetration limited by the mass of the individual pellet. I am sorry I will not bet my life on your anecdotal evidence.

Last edited by bernieb90; 04-30-2013 at 2:48 PM..
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  #63  
Old 04-30-2013, 2:47 PM
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I like #1 buck for personal protection. I'd shoot some cheap birdshot first to get a feel for the gun and then shoot a few rounds of #1 buck at varying distances to get your spread pattern.

Also, check out this site.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
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Old 04-30-2013, 2:58 PM
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Having different shells in the shotgun seems so futile to me. During the adrenaline and stress you wont remember which shell is up next, besides that your objective should be to stop the threat, period. I dont own guns to "stun" or "warn" enemies.
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Old 04-30-2013, 3:23 PM
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Bird shot is not a reliable man stopper. When I lived in apartments I kept 2rds of #4 buck followed by 5rds of 00 buck. Now I keep Federal LE 00 buck in mine, with a bandoleer with 50 more handy. I would not go below #4 buck, no way - no how.
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  #66  
Old 04-30-2013, 3:47 PM
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That LE132/LE133 Ammo is pretty impressive
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  #67  
Old 04-30-2013, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieb90 View Post
There are also plenty of stories where people have dropped pigs with .22s , and of course Gamo airguns. Does that make them a good choice for self defense?
I never suggested that. I merely related a factual account of what I witnessed, and you twisted it to suit your agenda/argument. At short range that column of #8 birdshot did the job, and then some.

You load your guns any way you like to satisfy whatever requirements you might fancy. Knock yourself out, and have a good time.
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Old 04-30-2013, 6:27 PM
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Exclamation LOL too funny

Funny we still still see posts trying to dodge the facts. I make my plan of action with information that's concrete fact. Not urban myth. The tests on the 1st video show for a fact at 25 feet that buckshot went thru all 4 full walls and into the backstop. He also shows at the same distance the birdshot had 0 spread and penatrated the full wall and partially into the 2nd.

On the 2nd video at 6:30 he cleary shows birdshot at 20 feet going thru a full side of ribs from a 200 lb hog in front of pork shoulder and denim causing massive penatration. This is is actual denim, bones, flesh, meat. You want to use buckshot don't make no mind to me. The fact that with 100% certainty that load will go thru 4 walls is your problem. You want to roll the dice on killing an innocent person because you a badda** that's your problem.

Every persons defensive plan will have to be decided by them. I use a progressive load in my SG for HD starting with #8 and then progressivly going to stronger rounds. My last round btw is a DDuplex DUPO28 SO IF 4 rounds don't get em that slug surely will finish em off.... I made my defensive plan with actually facts everyone needs to decide how they plan to defend themselves or their family. However that decision needs to be made with actuall facts not urban myth from some keyboard warrior rocking a full tube of 3" slugs because he's a bad A**

Oh btw.....
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  #69  
Old 04-30-2013, 6:46 PM
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Old 04-30-2013, 7:49 PM
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Indoors - birdshot will stop anything. If you must use something heavier - #4 buckshot

If you are shooting at zombies across the street or in a car trying to ram you - 00 buckshot
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Old 04-30-2013, 8:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelohamr View Post
All of the talk about bird shot is for birds, is just talk. In 1978 my partner was promoted to sgt.
On Labor Day weekend of that year, he and his roommate were ambushed as they returned home. He was shot with a .410, loaded with bird shot, at close range. Before he died, he got off 5 rounds from his .38. The suspect was hit 5 times in the upper torso and ran about 50 yards before he died.

All of you keyboard ballistic experts can bite me and STFU.
There's a documented case of a circus elephant being killed with a accidental shot from a .22 too. Doesn't mean .22 is a good choice for your next Africa hunt.

I was a cop in the 70's and 80's too. I responded to several shootings where close range hits with birdshot did little more than cause the "victim' to yell a lot.

Birdshot sucks for self defense, and no one that studies the subject would disagree.
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Old 04-30-2013, 8:03 PM
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Indoors - birdshot will stop anything.
The internet, folks can say anything.....
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Old 04-30-2013, 8:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
I never suggested that. I merely related a factual account of what I witnessed, and you twisted it to suit your agenda/argument. At short range that column of #8 birdshot did the job, and then some.

You load your guns any way you like to satisfy whatever requirements you might fancy. Knock yourself out, and have a good time.
I'm sorry if the discussion got a bit heated. There is nothing personal against you. I just don't want people getting the wrong idea.

I take people's safety very seriously. Suggesting defensive loads is like suggesting a motorcycle helmet, or a parachute. Get it wrong and you could be dead. Just because something works once for some guy does not make it the best choice.

There are questions that have to be asked here.

Will birdshot work sometimes? yes it will.
Will buckshot work a much higher percentage of the time? Yes it will (this is fact).

Is overpenetration a serious risk to people around me. Not if I hit my target, and or set up my dwelling in a manner to mitigate that danger.

If my chosen load does not work what will happen to me and my family?
Am I willing to stack the deck against myself by choosing an inferior defensive load?

Again I asked myself all of these and load my shotgun with LE132. If I die so does the rest of my family. I am not willing to take that risk.
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Old 04-30-2013, 8:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem1950 View Post
Indoors - birdshot will stop anything. If you must use something heavier - #4 buckshot

If you are shooting at zombies across the street or in a car trying to ram you - 00 buckshot
Some cops have moved away from #4 buckshot due to poor penetration on heavy clothing. Every major agency issues 00 buck for LE duty. Do you think the guy they are shooting is not the same guy that is breaking into your house?
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Old 04-30-2013, 9:18 PM
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:20 PM
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negolien negolien is offline
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Cool lol

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Originally Posted by bernieb90 View Post
Some cops have moved away from #4 buckshot due to poor penetration on heavy clothing. Every major agency issues 00 buck for LE duty. Do you think the guy they are shooting is not the same guy that is breaking into your house?
/yawn "Indoors - birdshot will stop anything. If you must use something heavier - #4 buckshot

If you are shooting at zombies across the street or in a car trying to ram you - 00 buckshot" I 100 % agree sir.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:47 PM
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Wow, so much fail in this thread. I was chomping at the bit until I saw this:

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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Consider shooting someone wearing a heavy leather jacket from the side. The shot may have to go through a leather jacket, the arm, the bone, back through the jacket, back through the jacket a third time, through skin and ribs, and then gets to the good stuff.
That is exactly the point, add stress, poor lighting, a moving subject, along with a very large or perhaps overweight subject, finally add in a side shot and perhaps a poorly placed shot. These ALL stack the deck strongly in favor of your shot not effectively stopping in that scenario. Add in any kind of bird shot with some of the compromising factors above and you have a unequivocally clear recipe for failure to incapacitate, PERIOD. Sure, having all of these factors at the same time is unlikely, but defense is all about stacking ones deck as much in their own favor as possible.

As others have pointed out 00 and #1 buck are nearly universal for police, FBI, military, etc. None of these folks use increasingly lethal rounds either.

Wound ballistics experts also clearly advise only the two types of shot shells above for a sufficient choice in ammunition.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:37 AM
bernieb90 bernieb90 is offline
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Originally Posted by negolien View Post


/yawn "Indoors - birdshot will stop anything. If you must use something heavier - #4 buckshot

If you are shooting at zombies across the street or in a car trying to ram you - 00 buckshot" I 100 % agree sir.
I don't usually quote Evan Marshall regarding wound ballistics, but in this case I think it is relevant.

Quote:
also have seen #4 fail to penetrate deeply enough on real bad guys-my favorite high risk warrant service gun was an 870 with Federal foster slugs.
How about Massad Ayoob.

Quote:
At LFI, we suggest buckshot. It has proven itself over the years as the optimum close/intermediate range antipersonnel shotgun round.



Birdshot can still go through sheetrock. One does not minimize danger to family members in other rooms by using birdshot; one does so by working out a coordinated defense plan that will not have one firing in the direction of other household members. If the armed, identified intruder ducks behind a wall or piece of furniture or other barrier, you WANT to be able to reach through and hit him.
How about Dr. Gary Roberts.

Quote:
I prefer #1 buckshot, as it offers adequate penetration depth, reasonable intermediate barrier penetration, and 35% more tissue crush than 00 buckshot
Pat Rogers maybe.

Quote:
As others have stated...
The purpose of utilizing Deadly Physical Force against another human being is to stop them from performing a specific act that would cause DPF or Serious Physical Injury against you or a third person.

Your only thought should be to stop that felonious action. You need to use the most appropriate tools for the purpose.
A fact of life is that any projectile will penetrate- a lot or a little. Those projectiles that penetrate more are generally more useful anti personel rounds. They are more likely to penetrate common building material. Those that penetrate buiding material less will generally work less efficiently on people.

I have worked for several organizations/ agencies in my career, and none recommended anything less then #4B (and i felt that was kinda' anemic)
From my perspective, when carrying a gage at work in a pro active unit, i used slug.
For my purposes, i use 5.56x45mm, not shotgun, to defend the casa.
If i were to use a SG, it would be specific 00B, or slug.

I'm just saying.....
If you feel that you are more qualified than these folks to suggest defensive ammunition I would be more than happy to hear your credentials. For me I am using buckshot.


Last edited by bernieb90; 05-01-2013 at 12:59 AM..
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Old 05-01-2013, 6:51 AM
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Well summarized.
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Old 05-01-2013, 6:56 AM
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Frito Bandido Frito Bandido is offline
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Winchester AA is some of the highest quality ammo, especially for re-loading. Even if you don't re-load, you make some reloader friends "donating" the hulls. I've heard the Remington STS loads are also high quality but I've never used them.

I have a wife, toddler and a roomate in my house, so I am also concerned with overpenetration. I keep the first shot at #6 birdshot. After that, the tube is full of 2-3/4 low recoil 00 buck.

The longest shot I would conceivably need to take in my house is about 8yds down a hallway. Any engagements in a room would be a maximum of 3-5yds. I really doubt I'd need to take a follow-up shot unless there is more than 1 intruder in the house. If I do, that's when the 00 buck comes in. After the first shot everyone in the house should have gotten down to the ground, so I'd be a little less concerned about over-penetration at that point.
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