Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Firearms Accessories: Holsters, Safes, Lights & more
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Firearms Accessories: Holsters, Safes, Lights & more If it locks up, carries, fits on to or cleans up your firearms, discuss it here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-20-2013, 5:24 PM
connorr931's Avatar
connorr931 connorr931 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 1,236
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default Effectiveness of bolting down a mid sized safe?

I was wondering how effective bolting down a mid sized safe is. I have extensive experience with construction and I know that it isn't super difficult to yank a bolt out of standard sub-flooring and carpet or wooden floors if it's attached to something with sufficient leverage.

My guess is that if a single guy was going to throwing his weight into the side of a mid sized safe for a minute or two it would loosen the bolts up enough for them to rip out of the floor. Now getting the safe out of the house would be a entirely different ordeal but I think its possible.

I was wondering if anyone had considered this and thought of a deterrent. I am planning on attaching multiple very large heavy duty washers to the bottom of my safe bolts to prevent something like this from possible happening.

I dont think this would ever be possible with a very large heavy safe because it would be way to much weight to move but I think people have a false sense of security when they store their guns in small to mid sized safes. What do you think? Am I crazy?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-20-2013, 5:49 PM
Yemff's Avatar
Yemff Yemff is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New New Mexico
Posts: 1,111
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

placement is key. Its not going to be so easy if you put it in a corner and bolt it to the wall as well as the floor.
__________________
Charlie don't surf!

Solidworks drafting
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-20-2013, 5:54 PM
connorr931's Avatar
connorr931 connorr931 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 1,236
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemff View Post
placement is key. Its not going to be so easy if you put it in a corner and bolt it to the wall as well as the floor.
True. I hadn't thought of that. Do safes come with mounts on the side?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-20-2013, 5:58 PM
fourtraxmc fourtraxmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 386
iTrader: 22 / 100%
Default

Just drill the sides and install a sleeve, GTG.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-20-2013, 6:15 PM
connorr931's Avatar
connorr931 connorr931 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 1,236
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtraxmc View Post
Just drill the sides and install a sleeve, GTG.
Ya that will work but my point is that a lot of people trust way to much in their safes.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-20-2013, 6:28 PM
not-fishing's Avatar
not-fishing not-fishing is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Folsom next to Dyke 8 launch
Posts: 1,773
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by connorr931 View Post
but I think people have a false sense of security when they store their guns in small to mid sized safes. What do you think? Am I crazy?
I tried to remove a small safe that I had lagged to the studs and I figured out very quickly that I would have to demo the wall to get the safe out. 40 years in construction for me

Sure bad guys can take the little safe but it's Slow Carry and only with the right tools. Saw-zaw, sledge, bigger pry bars

Given enough time and the right tools anyone can get into anything. So what burglar carries a battery powered Saw-zaw in their back pocket?
__________________
Spreading the WORD according to COLT. and Smith, Wesson, Ruger, HK, Sig, High Standard, Browning
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-20-2013, 6:31 PM
Dhena81's Avatar
Dhena81 Dhena81 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,505
iTrader: 33 / 100%
Default

I have a mid sized safe and used 1/2' drop in anchors that depending on the psi of my concrete slab are rated for something like 20k pounds a piece and I used Grade 8 washers and bolts threaded into the drop ins. I have it placed in a corner of my garage and I built a wall around the safe to help prevent tipping or to limit any leverage attacking the door using a demolition or crow bar.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-20-2013, 6:32 PM
Full Clip's Avatar
Full Clip Full Clip is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Playa Vista, CA
Posts: 9,083
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Safes keep out the amateur criminals.
Safes slow down the pros.
__________________
“Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” — Robert A. Heinlein

“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds” — Samuel Adams
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-20-2013, 6:57 PM
omnitravis's Avatar
omnitravis omnitravis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: S.L.O.
Posts: 1,240
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

Mine is practically hidden in my closet for extra measure. Probably wont keep out the really dedicated thieves, though.
__________________
Don't forget to shop at Amazon through Shop42a.com. Up to 25% of every purchase you make through Shop42a.com goes back to help fight for your gun rights.

"Friends don't let friends play bubba gunsmith."
SlickmisterN
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-20-2013, 8:46 PM
russ69's Avatar
russ69 russ69 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,749
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Clip View Post
Safes keep out the amateur criminals. Safes slow down the pros.
Given enough time, anything can be moved. If they were able to put it in your house, someone can take it out.
__________________
NRA PATRON LIFE
CRPA LIFE
ASRPA LIFE
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-20-2013, 9:07 PM
Bravodigger's Avatar
Bravodigger Bravodigger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 619
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

If you have a sub-floor you could make a template of your bolt pattern out of a steel plate and place it under the floor, bolt through the floor and plate below. I doubt a sumo wrestler could knock that down.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-20-2013, 9:15 PM
ThiZZ's Avatar
ThiZZ ThiZZ is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 405
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

My safe is over a 1000 lbs and I still bolted it down. The way I see it is its better to be safe then sorry. Bolting down only helps make it harder for someone to open it. Prying a safe open from its standing position would be a lot harder than prying it after toppling it over.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-20-2013, 9:22 PM
monk's Avatar
monk monk is offline
Veteran Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,142
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

I bolted it down nice and tight since even an 800lbs safe can be moved with the right tools with little effort. I still want to weld a thicker shell on it. Just so that it'll protect from the corner cutting.
__________________


NRA Member
SAF Member


Quote:
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-20-2013, 9:29 PM
hermosabeach's Avatar
hermosabeach hermosabeach is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 9,361
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

You can always roll out the carpet, cut the sub flooring out.

Once you can see where the Joists are, you can marry them with 4x8 to make almost a wooden slab under where your safe will sit.

Re install the subflooring and return the carpet.

behind the safe you could screw a 3/4" piece of plywood the same dimention as your safe into the studs.

Then lag bolt the safe into your new floor and screw into the wall behind the safe.

lots of options that will help slow people down....
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-20-2013, 10:32 PM
dub762's Avatar
dub762 dub762 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 25
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Its about slowing the bad guy down. I would stack midgets on top of the safe if it slows the bad guy down to piss him off!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-25-2013, 3:02 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,518
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainsaw View Post
My safe weighs 1300 lbs empty. If someone of average size and strength throws his weight into it, nothing will happen.

Bolting a safe to subfloor is silly. That's 3/4 plywood. Now lag-bolting it to floor joists with 1/2 lags, that's a different kettle of fish. If the floor joists are not in the right place, then add bridging or extra joists in the right place. Similarly, using 1/2" concrete expansion anchors gives substantially more strength.
I have an application for this coming up, and not being 'mechanical', don't quite see this. Would someone offer a more detailed description for bolting one of the smaller (400 lb-ish) safes to a wood floor over a crawl space?
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-25-2013, 4:39 PM
hermosabeach's Avatar
hermosabeach hermosabeach is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 9,361
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Librarian-

A typical floor is several layers of materials.
You have joists (beams)as the base layer. Based upon code, they are on 16" - 24" centers- in the case of 16" it is 16" from the center of one joist to the next.

The Joist will be a solid piece of lumber-2" x 10" or 2" x 14" and they will run the width of the house.

something like this-



On top of the joists you then fin the subflooring.... It can be either Plywood or a variation of particle board.

The top layer is your flooring- Carpet, Pergo, Tile, etc.


If you bolt into the subflooring - you have only anchored into a thin material.

If a safe is 5 feet tall, then when you pull the safe over, you have a 5 foot lever attempting to rip the safe out of the flooring.

If you use Lag bolts and screw into the joists, now you have a 4,5 or 6" screw sunk into solid wood... and 4,5 or 6" of wood... not just the 1/2" to 3/4" subflooring.


The trouble is that the joists most likely will not align with your safe.

So you need to remove the flooring and then attach new lumber to the joists so that you now have solid wood, attached to the joists that now sits under the mounting holes in your safe.

If you have a crawl space under your home, you could simply drill the holes and screw long screws into the safe/ flooring.

you then crawl under your home to see where the screws went. Are they into a joist or into the subflooring? If in the subflooring, you would then need to cut a new piece of lumber to be installed between the joists so that the lag bolts in the safe would be screwed into wood connected to Joists.


The additional concern is that some homes are not built with a solid piece of wood for Joists... they use a laminate - composite - joist made of wood and glue..... I am not familiar with these nor familiar with the outcome of screwing a lag bolt into one.....




I hope this makes more sense....
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-25-2013, 4:47 PM
The Electrician's Avatar
The Electrician The Electrician is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Orange County
Posts: 683
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

[QUOTE=connorr931;10866623]I was wondering how effective bolting down a mid sized safe is. I have extensive experience with construction and I know that it isn't super difficult to yank a bolt out of standard sub-flooring and carpet or wooden floors if it's attached to something with sufficient leverage.

My guess is that if a single guy was going to throwing his weight into the side of a mid sized safe for a minute or two it would loosen the bolts up enough for them to rip out of the floor. Now getting the safe out of the house would be a entirely different ordeal but I think its possible.

I was wondering if anyone had considered this and thought of a deterrent. I am planning on attaching multiple very large heavy duty washers to the bottom of my safe bolts to prevent something like this from possible happening.

I dont think this would ever be possible with a very large heavy safe because it would be way to much weight to move but I think people have a false sense of security when they store their guns in small to mid sized safes. What do you think? Am I crazy? [/QUOTE

Run 220 volts to the safe, see how bad a burgler wants to get in then! Lol
Ive had the same experiance with those red heads, i now use the ones with the sleves, they seem to hold much better, you could also use the epoxy they have. Thats if your bolting to concrete.
__________________
Don't hate the breed, hate the deed!!!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-25-2013, 6:46 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,518
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Librarian-

A typical floor is several layers of materials.
You have joists (beams)as the base layer. Based upon code, they are on 16" - 24" centers- in the case of 16" it is 16" from the center of one joist to the next.

The Joist will be a solid piece of lumber-2" x 10" or 2" x 14" and they will run the width of the house.

something like this-
...

On top of the joists you then fin the subflooring.... It can be either Plywood or a variation of particle board.

The top layer is your flooring- Carpet, Pergo, Tile, etc.


If you bolt into the subflooring - you have only anchored into a thin material.

If a safe is 5 feet tall, then when you pull the safe over, you have a 5 foot lever attempting to rip the safe out of the flooring.

If you use Lag bolts and screw into the joists, now you have a 4,5 or 6" screw sunk into solid wood... and 4,5 or 6" of wood... not just the 1/2" to 3/4" subflooring.
...

The trouble is that the joists most likely will not align with your safe.

So you need to remove the flooring and then attach new lumber to the joists so that you now have solid wood, attached to the joists that now sits under the mounting holes in your safe.

If you have a crawl space under your home, you could simply drill the holes and screw long screws into the safe/ flooring.

you then crawl under your home to see where the screws went. Are they into a joist or into the subflooring? If in the subflooring, you would then need to cut a new piece of lumber to be installed between the joists so that the lag bolts in the safe would be screwed into wood connected to Joists.


The additional concern is that some homes are not built with a solid piece of wood for Joists... they use a laminate - composite - joist made of wood and glue..... I am not familiar with these nor familiar with the outcome of screwing a lag bolt into one.....

I hope this makes more sense....
That helps; I sort of knew some of that. I did know that mounting to just the floor deck wasn't enough.

Yes, the probability that the holes in the safe would align with the joists does seem low.

Presume, for discussion, the holes fall between the joists; what size lumber should be used for the lag bolts to attach to - 2x4? 2x6? 4x4?

What keeps the lag bolts from tearing through the bottom of the safe? I would expect some sort of metal reinforcement, but what?
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-26-2013, 12:35 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,518
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Thanks, chainsaw - very helpful, and not at all pitched too low. As a computer jock and a nurse, building stuff was never one of my strong skill sets!
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-26-2013, 1:12 PM
connorr931's Avatar
connorr931 connorr931 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 1,236
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Keep in mind that I was strictly talking about mid sized safes. I think the guys with 500 pound + safes are pretty safe. I think the best option is to make a template for the bolts to attach to under the floor. I would assume that would make even a relatively small safe very secure.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-26-2013, 4:02 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,518
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by connorr931 View Post
Keep in mind that I was strictly talking about mid sized safes. I think the guys with 500 pound + safes are pretty safe. I think the best option is to make a template for the bolts to attach to under the floor. I would assume that would make even a relatively small safe very secure.
I don't think that is a good assumption. That's not much different than a refrigerator; an appliance dolly could haul a safe that size/weight out of a house pretty easily. Even the big safes were probably moved into place with something like a pallet jack; if the room to get it in is still available, it can be taken out again.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-26-2013, 4:06 PM
Twhite5555 Twhite5555 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 102
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

My house is on a raised foundation. I bought a 3/16" steel plate and mounted the steel plate under the floor joists. I then ran nuts and bolts from the safe to the steel plate.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-02-2013, 8:58 AM
FatCity67 FatCity67 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Stockton
Posts: 2,574
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

If you have a post-tension slab make sure you know where the tendons are before drilling.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:06 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.