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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #161  
Old 03-27-2008, 9:55 PM
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Got a nice letter today from US DOJ, BATF NFA branch.

I guess I filled out the form correctly.
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  #162  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:06 PM
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  #163  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:18 PM
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Sexy. Very sexy.

You sir, know how to play the game. Great work!
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Soon it will be clearly immoral to routinely violate the bill of rights like the California courts so enjoy today.

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  #164  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:21 PM
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Thumbs up

Much better and I do approve!
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  #165  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:37 PM
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Got a nice letter today from US DOJ, BATF NFA branch.

I guess I filled out the form correctly.
Congrats

Man, that krink is sweet as well. I should have bought a kit when they were cheap. I think I'm gonna cut down a Romy G kit and make a fake krink.
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  #166  
Old 03-27-2008, 11:41 PM
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Congrats

Man, that krink is sweet as well. I should have bought a kit when they were cheap. I think I'm gonna cut down a Romy G kit and make a fake krink.
The krink doesnt need to be registered right? Is it just pictured for a size comparison..
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  #167  
Old 03-27-2008, 11:57 PM
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OK so if I have a pistol that I want to turn into an SBR by adding a buttstock, as I read this thread that is legal as long as it isn't an AW? Or does it have to be a C+R to do that with?? What about the high power buttstocks on old wwII pistols?
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  #168  
Old 03-27-2008, 11:59 PM
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The krink doesnt need to be registered right? Is it just pictured for a size comparison..
As I see it pictured, it doesn't need to be registered as an AW since I'm assuming it was built from a flat and it does appear to have BB mod to make the magazine non-detachable. And the mag is probably a 10/30 mag that only holds 10 rounds.
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  #169  
Old 03-28-2008, 12:07 AM
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OK so if I have a pistol that I want to turn into an SBR by adding a buttstock, as I read this thread that is legal as long as it isn't an AW? Or does it have to be a C+R to do that with?? What about the high power buttstocks on old wwII pistols?
to be able to SBR'ed in CA it would have to be a C&R, but it would still need to comply with CA's AW rules. I have to think about it, for CA AW rules, would be be a pistol due to the <16" barrell, or a rifle due to the stock. Heck, it may be both. If a pistol, it may be AW legal. But as rifle, it has a pistol grip that would make it an AW with the detachable mag.
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  #170  
Old 03-28-2008, 12:11 AM
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to be able to SBR'ed in CA it would have to be a C&R, but it would still need to comply with CA's AW rules. I have to think about it, for CA AW rules, would be be a pistol due to the <16" barrell, or a rifle due to the stock. Heck, it may be both. If a pistol, it may be AW legal. But as rifle, it has a pistol grip that would make it an AW with the detachable mag.
OK so I have a ruger mkII that is the 10" bull stainless that I have always wanted to put a buttstock on so since it is not C&R that plan is out but I did pick up a MKI with the red eagle grips that places it 1949-1952 mfg so it is C&R and I could get that pistol registered as a SBR and since it is rimfire I would not be in Assault weapon territory correct?
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  #171  
Old 03-28-2008, 12:28 AM
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OK so I have a ruger mkII that is the 10" bull stainless that I have always wanted to put a buttstock on so since it is not C&R that plan is out
yup, if not C&R, then you can't SBR it.

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but I did pick up a MKI with the red eagle grips that places it 1949-1952 mfg so it is C&R and I could get that pistol registered as a SBR and since it is rimfire I would not be in Assault weapon territory correct?
That might just work. Wasn't thinking about a rimfire. No AW rifle limitations, but the AW pistol rules do apply to rimfire pistols. But with just a riflestock, I think you may not trigger any of the pistol limitations.

I'd send in a Form 1 on it and see what happens. I know that the ATF has approved an Form 1 SBR app on a C&R handgun to comply with C&R SBR Michigan state requirements which are very similar to CA C&R SBR requirements.
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  #172  
Old 03-28-2008, 8:19 AM
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I registered it as a pistol with CADOJ using the self-report form.

It's pictured because this is my "Thanks CalGuns!" pic -- what I would not have known I could get without this site.

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The krink doesnt need to be registered right? Is it just pictured for a size comparison..
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  #173  
Old 03-28-2008, 3:45 PM
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I still have a seller of a C&R Remmy 870 for $250 shipping standing by if anybody is interested. He has not put it up to auction and doesn't want his info blasted on an online forum so PM me if you want it.

EDIT: seller is out of state. NOT local to any CA city.

EDIT2: 870 pending sale.

ALSO! it has been brought to my attention some older 870 barrels (improved and skeet and poly chokes) are VERY rare and should be "saved" from being cut down if possible. The Remington Society is full of responsible gun peeps that can put the good stuff to use. This seller would like them saved also, and can answer if anybody has Q's.

Justin
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  #174  
Old 03-28-2008, 5:44 PM
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I still have a seller of a C&R Remmy 870 for $250 shipping standing by if anybody is interested. He has not put it up to auction and doesn't want his info blasted on an online forum so PM me if you want it.

Justin
OK so I can take my model 37 and pistol grip it and chop the BBL since it is C&R and qualifies for SBS (I want to go less than 30" OAL) but to do the same with a non C&R shotgun it needed to never ever have had a buttstock on it? Is that what I am getting from this thread? Or perhaps I am not understanding the difference between AOW and SBS?? Feel free to tell me to go back and re-read the entire thread since I only read it once. :-)
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  #175  
Old 03-28-2008, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ljg17 View Post
OK so I can take my model 37 and pistol grip it and chop the BBL since it is C&R and qualifies for SBS (I want to go less than 30" OAL) but to do the same with a non C&R shotgun it needed to never ever have had a buttstock on it? Is that what I am getting from this thread? Or perhaps I am not understanding the difference between AOW and SBS?? Feel free to tell me to go back and re-read the entire thread since I only read it once. :-)
AOW stands for Any Other Weapon. This is something that does not fall into and has never fallen into the category of rifle, pistol, or shotgun. Some examples are a handgun with a forward pistol grip, a weapon that has a barrel less than 18”, fires shotgun shells, and has never had a stock other than a pistol grip on it, pen guns (illegal in CA under all circumstances), cane guns, and just about any other weapon (seriously no pun intended) that is non conventional but not a DD. California adopts the federal definition of an AOW and they are legal with the proper federal paperwork regardless of age. The exception is the pen gun which is specifically banned. The tax stamp required to transfer an AOW is $5 but to make one, the tax is $200. If you want to make an AOW out of a “Shotgun” such as an 870 that is not C&R, you need to get one that came from the factory with a pistol grip and never had a stock on it. If it ever had a stock on it or if you ever put one on it, then it becomes a SBS if it has a barrel shorter than 18”.

Now in CA you can own SBR’s and SBS’s if they are C&R. The tax stamp is $200 for these regardless if you make them or buy them in a NFA configuration. It should be noted, that this does not exempt a weapon from the AW rules so you could not have a semi-auto SBR that is shorter than 30” or that has any “evil features”.

There are much better details throughout the thread. If you are thinking about doing this, I encourage you to read it through as many times as you need to fully understand it. Follow the links that are posted in it as they have even more information. Finally do your own research, do not take our word for it. We are not attorneys.
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  #176  
Old 03-28-2008, 11:17 PM
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Thanks for the clarification, I am seriously thinking that I want to do this.
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  #177  
Old 03-28-2008, 11:24 PM
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Oh, the humanity!

Cutting down all those nice old guns
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  #178  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by blackrazor View Post
Yes, but, if I'm understanding this correctly, an AOW is exempt from all AW laws in CA, yes? After all, by definition, an "AOW" cannot be a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, which therefore means it can't be an "assault" rifle, pistol, or shotgun, yes? Furthermore, once something is registered as an "AOW", it is always an "AOW", even if at a later time it were to be configured as a rifle, right?

Let's say you purchase a bare OLL lower, what's to stop you from registering it as an AOW? And once registered as an AOW, why can't you configure it as an AW, since legally it can never really be an AW once labeled an AOW?
Nope, an AOW is not exempt from AW laws in CA. CA does not define an AOW, they leave that up to the feds, and an federally-registeded AOW is only exempt from 12020 regulations, not any other sections of the code, like the 12276 AW section.

CA has their own defintion of pistols, rifles, and shotguns, and an AOW registration does not preclude CA from still calling your AOW a pistol.

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12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
That definition pulls your AOW'ed OLL firearm into the AW pistol arena where you need to make sure you are compliant with those regs.

Of course, that is just my opinion and there may be some other exemption lurking in the code that will help us, I just haven't found it yet.


edit: and if you take that AOW and put a stock on it, it is no longer an AOW, even if you take the stock back off. Because, once the stock goes on, it becomes a rifle or shotgun, and you can't go from rifle/shotgun to AOW. It would need to go to an SBR/SBS.

Last edited by ke6guj; 03-29-2008 at 11:46 AM..
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  #179  
Old 03-29-2008, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by blackrazor View Post
Yes, but, if I'm understanding this correctly, an AOW is exempt from all AW laws in CA, yes? After all, by definition, an "AOW" cannot be a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, which therefore means it can't be an "assault" rifle, pistol, or shotgun, yes? Furthermore, once something is registered as an "AOW", it is always an "AOW", even if at a later time it were to be configured as a rifle, right?

Let's say you purchase a bare OLL lower, what's to stop you from registering it as an AOW? And once registered as an AOW, why can't you configure it as an AW, since legally it can never really be an AW once labeled an AOW?
Here is a thread where this idea is talked about in more depth. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=93519 It is something that I have thought about. I was planning to write a letter to the DOJ using other examples but mining the same information to get some clarification on this. If you came right out and asked, they would give you an unfavorable answer regardless. Now that it has been talked about here, it is a mute point. But as I and other said, an AOW can NEVER have a shoulder stock on it. If this were an exemption, it would only apply to handguns.
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  #180  
Old 04-16-2008, 3:25 PM
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The Idea of an SBR MKI got me thinking,, not nearly as cool as a 10"bbl but...

C&R 1911
22 conversion kit
Buttstock compatible mainspring housing
Buttstock for same.....

Since the 45ACP would be AW here but legal other places do you think you could reg' it in both calibers?

Just spittballing....
RGB

Last edited by dragonbait1a; 04-16-2008 at 3:26 PM.. Reason: typed too fast, typos.....
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  #181  
Old 04-16-2008, 4:12 PM
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interesting idea there. With the C&R 1911, you should be able to meet the 12020 C&R SBR exemptions, but I don't know on the AW side. Does a temporary conversion kit to rimfire exempt you from centerfire AW rifle regs since it has a stock? And if were also considered a pistol due to the <16" barrel, it wouldn't be a AW pistol since it has no evil features.


As for reg'ing in multiple calibers, AFAIK, the ATF requires you to put a single caliber/length down on the Form 1 now. Various barrel lengths, such as 8-15", are denied regularly and the Form 1 returned for corrections. Once the Form 1 has been approved, you can temporarly change lengths/calibers as you see fit. If you were to permanently change it so that it would no longer be able to match the Form 1, they recommend that you send a clarification letter so that they can update their records.
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  #182  
Old 04-16-2008, 7:41 PM
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Sorry, I don't want to read the thread again, but why would the .45ACP be an AW if it was to be used in a Registered SBR in CA?

Is it the pistol grip and detachable mag? That would only apply to an "outside the grip magazine", and there is no barrel shroud..

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  #183  
Old 04-16-2008, 7:59 PM
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Thanks, I keep reading about "registerd in 9mm 223 and 308" for H&K trigger packs so i thought it had to be listed

Being a pessimist it's a Pistol and a rifle. As a rifle if it was centerfire then OAL and pistolgrip features apply.

As a pistol the magazine outside the grip, second handgrip, threaded barrel and shrouded barrel rules apply. a 1911 22 conversion doesn't have these (neither would the aforementioned MK I) CA defines handgun differently then the feds as notated above.

Of course if it wasn't semiauto none of these would be an issue.

Now, I may be overcautious. But as SBR'ing a pistol not only raises a flashing Xenon sign above you it steps on toes too. "Them darn calgunners are at it again."

I suppose those that have NFA guns have lawyer money too, but just as it's EVERY gun owners responsibility to obey the laws it's DOUBLY important for NFA owners to be upstanding citizens.

RGB

Last edited by dragonbait1a; 04-16-2008 at 8:03 PM.. Reason: forgot thanks
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  #184  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:28 PM
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Whoa whoa WHOA! First you say I can afford a lawyer and then your calling me a "upstanding citizen"??? Who do you think I is?

IF you do not want to fit a 16" barrel to your 1911 (they make 'em, and some make 'em CHEAP!) then you would NEED to make it a SBR if your going to put a stock on it.

The only other way is if the pistol is a C&R and was mfgr'd with the butt stock (like the fancy officer Lugers and rare 1911's from WWII), then it is "accepted" by the BATFE that they are to be used in that fashion. But the chances of your C&R being one of those prized heirlooms is rather slim.

If you have the desire and the extra $200, just fill out the Trust stuff and ATF forms and go for it. What is the worst they can do? Say no and send you check back?

BTW, making it a .22 won't circumvent the SBR thing.
Pistol + shoulder stock = SBR,
also, pistol + 16" barrel + shoulder stock = legal,
http://www.calgunlaws.com/modules.ph...rticle&sid=396
last, rifle - 16" barrel or OAL< 26"(?) = SBR or illegal configuration

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  #185  
Old 04-17-2008, 1:01 PM
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Default Points of clarity

Sorry, I wasn't clear. SBR a 1911 with a 22 conversion kit for the buttstock. the second post was regarding how SB23 would interpret an SBR. It would be a Pistol (as it's barrel is less then 16") AND a rifle (as it is "Designed to be fired from the shoulder").

So you have to comply with BOTH the pistol features list and the rifle list. To avoid the rifle list a 22 conversion (that would be my choice for the caliber of record on the NFA paperwork), and then just make sure you don't add any Pistol AW features.

You don't have to have money on tap for a lawyer to own NFA items, it was a gross over-generalization. I wouldn't begin to tread the NFA path without a lawyer personally. Capital assets would also a person prerequisite. That is a home that I will inhabit for the foreseeable future.

Different strokes for different folks.

RGB
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  #186  
Old 04-17-2008, 1:46 PM
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I think I get your line of thinking.

Once a shoulder stock is installed, it IS a rifle you have manufactured (short or regular- does not matter). If you keep the barrel within legal limit (>16") you don't have to file any papers whatsoever and your legal.

Justin
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Last edited by Roccobro; 04-17-2008 at 1:47 PM.. Reason: Took out personal feelings and interpretations
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  #187  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:06 PM
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More NFA tax stamps have made it into CA. An AOW Form 1 this time.
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  #188  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:29 PM
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So this is working? You're able to get AOWs registered here? I've always thought the Serbu Supershorty was cool, and some of the other AOWs.
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  #189  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:34 PM
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Yup, ATF is approving AOWs in CA. Getting permission to make on a Form 1 is easy. Its getting one transfered on a Form 4 which is still in process. Finding a local Class 3 dealer willing to transfer one is the hard part.

So, making your own "super shorty" is doable on a Form 1, but buying a "real" super shorty on a Form 4 hasn't been done yet.

You may want to look at this thread as well. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&highlight=aow
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  #190  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:46 PM
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Cool, sometime next year maybe I'll do this. Maybe not a real "supershorty", but maybe something with more cool factor, like a pen gun or some unusual thing like this. I don't have any practical use for any of these things, I'm just interested in the unusual and obscure.
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  #191  
Old 05-26-2008, 12:54 PM
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well, a pen gun would be a no-no. Pen guns are specifically exempted from the AOW exemption.

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(8) Any other weapon ......The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.
But other cool stuff should be ok. Cane and wallet guns. Flashlight guns would be ok. a Mini-Maglight gun might be getting close to the size of a pen gun. I wouldn't mind one of those deadly Cellphone guns.
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Old 05-26-2008, 1:17 PM
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Geez. Of course, there's an exemption to the exemption. Pen guns are responsible for school shootings, terrorism, etc. And school shooting perpetrators and terrorists insist on only using legally-owned, NFA-registered weapons so if you deny them access to the NFA, they'll certainly not commit their heinous crimes.

Anyway, ok, no pen guns. But the other stuff is cool. And it's something you could build yourself.
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Old 05-27-2008, 11:49 AM
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I didn't want to wade through this thread again, but has anyone received any clarification on AOWs as they pertain to the Handgun Safety Law?

The "Smooth-Bore Pistol" definition of "Any Other Weapon" throws up some red flags here. It seems that DOJ could really come down on this from that angle. Does an AOW "pistol" need to comply with the HSL? Any dealer considering an in-bound Form 4 transfer of a Serbu Super Shorty or any other shotgun-based AOW will want to definitive clarification this.
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Old 05-27-2008, 3:14 PM
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Funny this thread was awakened yesterday as I got my Form 1 in the mail for my SBS today.

WOOHOO!

Justin
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Old 05-27-2008, 3:56 PM
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Congrats.

Wasn't that sweet opening up that envelope and seeing that $200 stamp on the Form?
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  #196  
Old 05-28-2008, 8:58 AM
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I almost peeled it off the form just checking it out!

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Old 05-28-2008, 1:22 PM
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Yup, ATF is approving AOWs in CA. Getting permission to make on a Form 1 is easy. Its getting one transfered on a Form 4 which is still in process. Finding a local Class 3 dealer willing to transfer one is the hard part.
Wouldn't showing the Class 3 dealer your Form 1 (with da stamp!) enough to show that the laws allowed it would also allow a transfer of a similar piece on a Form 4? I would guess that Class 3 dealers in Calif. are not used to dealing with non-LE agencies, and would pretty much scoff at doing anything with the general public.
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Old 05-28-2008, 1:40 PM
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Wouldn't showing the Class 3 dealer your Form 1 (with da stamp!) enough to show that the laws allowed it would also allow a transfer of a similar piece on a Form 4? I would guess that Class 3 dealers in Calif. are not used to dealing with non-LE agencies, and would pretty much scoff at doing anything with the general public.
That is the plan. First step was to confirm that the concept of the idea by getting some Form 1's approved. And to re-confirm that it works by having others also get approved Form 1s, which has happened.

Next step is to get an approved Form 4 through a local Class 3. However, the firearms fund has to be replenished. I could go in there and talk to him, but if I wasn't ready to buy, he'd probably just assume I was one of those people that like to talk **** and finger**** the merchandise.
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Old 05-28-2008, 2:26 PM
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Rumor in the LE circles is that he has some kind of real bad Alzheimers, and the uppers in charge have a plan in place to phase him out and replace him with one of his Deputy Chiefs or the Undersheriff until elections come back around. You might not even see him if you were to march into his office.

I think I posted somewhere about one of his replacements being VERY pro-CCW. We can only hope for the San Diegans.

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Old 05-30-2008, 2:20 PM
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I didn't want to wade through this thread again, but has anyone received any clarification on AOWs as they pertain to the Handgun Safety Law?
I wondered about this too with the standard SBS exemption. Anything with a barrel length under 16" is a pistol by definition. I looked to the single-shot exemption here to avoid the HSL requirement. Pretty easy to accomplish on a shotgun with some wood dowel blocking the mag tube.
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