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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-23-2013, 4:18 PM
QWi QWi is offline
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Default 5150 and ATF Form 4473 Question 11.f

Hi CalGuns!

So, I've done some research and can't seem to find any real answer for this anywhere. At this point, I'm in a position where I need to fill out the ATF 4473. On question 11.f, it asks:

"Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?".

I've bolded the part which concerns me. I'm not sure how to answer this. I was placed on a CA W&I 5150 last year, which enacts Section 8103. If you're placed on a 5150, it's a 5 year prohibition in California, but it is not reported to the FBI DOJ. If you're placed on a 5250 (which I was not), it's a 5 year prohibition in California, and a lifetime federal prohibition.

I'm tempted to check "no". I believe that a 5150 is an involuntary hold, but not an involuntary commitment.

I was not adjudicated by a court as a danger to self or others, nor did I have a hearing which would place me on a 5250. I was not ordered by the court to be in the hospital.

Should I answer no?

Lastly, I notice there's quite a negative stigma on this forum regarding the whole mental health issue. First, let me say, the circumstances in which I was admitted into the hospital were solely based off of words. I did not try to hurt myself or anyone else, nor was I considering it. I was frustrated and said "I want to die" as a figure of speech, and they took it too seriously. So, please, give me the respect of avoiding the whole "well, if you were 5150'd you don't need to be around guns anyway", "5150s don't need guns", etc. speech. I've heard it a million times.

Last edited by QWi; 03-23-2013 at 4:23 PM..
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Old 03-23-2013, 4:49 PM
mrdd mrdd is offline
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I don't think the OP is asking that. The question as I understand it is: "Does a 5150 qualify as 'have been committed to a mental institution' for the purposes of federal law"?
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Old 03-23-2013, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
I don't think the OP is asking that. The question as I understand it is: "Does a 5150 qualify as 'have been committed to a mental institution' for the purposes of federal law"?
Precisely.

Also, if I fill out a PFEC, it will come back saying I'm ineligible, since I'm still within the 5 years in California. The 5150 happened July of 2012. I personally find the law to be unconstitutional and lacking due process, so I've chosen to move and free myself from it. The reason I'm asking on the federal level is because I'm moving, so I don't think it would follow me into a different state.
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Old 03-23-2013, 8:14 PM
Stewdabaker23 Stewdabaker23 is offline
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That's a crappy situation. You could check no and see whats happens.
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Old 03-23-2013, 8:37 PM
PassTheAmmo PassTheAmmo is offline
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Without editorializing on the law, there is an appeal process. It's on the form they would have given you. Why not give it a shot?
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:26 PM
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I actually did petition for an appeal. I went to court twice over it; one in my town, which they sent down to the San Bernardino Superior Court. While attending the second hearing for the appeal (on Feb 13th), they had failed to subpoena my medical records, so they postponed the hearing until March 6th. I had informed them that I would be unlikely to attend as I was leaving the state for indefinite amount, and the main reason I was appealing was because I want to go into law enforcement and don't want this affecting me in my future. I had just turned 18 a few days before, and I explained that to them. They still said they needed my records.

Needless to say, I wasn't able to attend the third hearing. So this is the next best thing.
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:30 PM
sakosf sakosf is offline
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A similar thread on this subject was already on this forum a week or so ago. 5150 is not considered as being "committed to mental institution" by the Federal Government. If you spend some time searching on the ATF website you will find that answer

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...s-general.html

"Committed to a Mental Institution

This term means a formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term also includes a commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness, and commitments for other reasons such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or any voluntary admission to a mental institution."

Last edited by sakosf; 03-23-2013 at 9:35 PM..
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QWi View Post

Needless to say, I wasn't able to attend the third hearing. So this is the next best thing.
Well, given the twists and turns this whole drama has taken, I'd say that "the next best thing" is to consult with one of the fine attorneys specializing in this kind of thing.

Soliciting advice from an online forum is unlikely to get you anwhere but in a state of confusion. This can be a serious matter given your choice of a career, and you should treat it with just that much seriousness.



Cap
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In the final analysis, rights in a Republic are protected by the people themselves. If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties.... Keep educating your neighbors and friends about the legacy of freedom that founded this nation and remind them what it takes to keep it free. --Don Kilmer
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapS View Post
Well, given the twists and turns this whole drama has taken, I'd say that "the next best thing" is to consult with one of the fine attorneys specializing in this kind of thing.

Soliciting advice from an online forum is unlikely to get you anwhere but in a state of confusion. This can be a serious matter given your choice of a career, and you should treat it with just that much seriousness.



Cap
I've consulted with Jason Davis regarding this a few months ago, actually. I didn't ask him about the ATF Form part. Unfortunately, I can't afford any attorney in my financial situation at the moment, otherwise I definitely would have gone that route--trust me.
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:55 PM
sakosf sakosf is offline
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There is no need to try to explain the circumstances that lead to your 5150 here. The husband of a former coworker of mine was taken to the hospital on a 5150. (He was acting strange from what I heard) It turned out he had a rather rare, but not unheard psychotic reaction/side effect to some pain management medicine he had been put on because of a injury he had suffered. He was released from mental hospital the afternoon of following day of his involuntary admittance.

I don't want too sound harsh.....but, you need to make the decision yourself. It only took me a few minutes searching on the ATF website to find the definition I posted above. If you feel that you need to consult a lawyer for the answer (some on this forum think you should and others think you can answer "NO" to question 11 on the form 4473), then perhaps it is best to save up your money to consult a lawyer and delay your gun purchase.

Last edited by sakosf; 03-23-2013 at 10:06 PM..
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:05 PM
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cr1ms0njyhad cr1ms0njyhad is offline
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The short and sweet answer you're looking for is: 5150 is an asinine Kali thing. 5250 is the scary one, lifetime federal ban. So if you're moving out of state make sure to show them your arse at the border as you head for more liberty-oriented territory
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:40 AM
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Be advised that nowadays most agencies have some "lie detector" portion in the application process.

There are a lot a people that have been held on 5150 status that are quite happy they can't own guns.

You should attempt another court appeal if its possible and you 're set on owning guns. Have you been Dx with a major mental illness?
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusrn View Post
Be advised that nowadays most agencies have some "lie detector" portion in the application process.

There are a lot a people that have been held on 5150 status that are quite happy they can't own guns.

You should attempt another court appeal if its possible and you 're set on owning guns. Have you been Dx with a major mental illness?
As far as what a Law Enforcement Agency's application process is like, I'm very informed. They have a psych, and sometimes a polygraph. That all coincides with a lengthy background investigation which goes on for months and months. I'd never lie about what happened, especially when I'm looking at a job where integrity is held highly.

They released me with a "Anxiety NOS" diagnosis, which is frankly BS. I was taken to a mental hospital at 17. Of course I was going to be anxious. I have no previous history of mental health issues, and I've never been placed on medications; it was a one time thing.

I'm sorry if this seems defensive, but please don't hint or imply that I shouldn't own them simply because of the fact that I've been to a hospital. Once more, with all due respect, you don't know the circumstances to be able to form an opinion of merit. I, however, am indeed dead set. Even if I were actually mentally ill at the time, I don't think it's right for California to take away my 2nd amendment right based off of 3 days.

Last edited by QWi; 03-24-2013 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 03-24-2013, 5:05 PM
sakosf sakosf is offline
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The more information you give out here about what happened, the more you are going to feel on the defensive & the need to explain more about what happened back then. It may be helpful for you to think of a 5150 this way..... a involuntary evaluation at a mental health facility to determine if you need to be committed to a mental hospital
At any given time in this country, there are probably several million people struggling with anxiety (phobias, panic attacks, general anxiety) and/or depression. These people are not all running around wild eyed, foaming at the mouth, acting strange. I read recently that Utah is the state with the highest % of people being treated for depression.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?i...1#.UU-i7FcvExU

Last edited by sakosf; 03-24-2013 at 5:07 PM..
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