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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 03-18-2013, 12:01 PM
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Default CCW in Los Angeles. Stop laughing, I have questions...

I helped a woman out last year, and now I'm a named protected person on a Criminal Protective Order - Domestic Violence against her ex.

I got a pistol (XD9) and have been training with it. But since the pistol will only protect me from the guy if he comes at me inside my house, but not in my yard or while jogging around the neighborhood or while walking to and from my car -- I want a CCW.

I live in Los Angeles (seriously, stop laughing) and I understand the Protective Order might be the one thing that could actually help me get a CCW in this jurisdiction. Before I apply, I have a few questions:

Do I need to know what gun I will be listing as my CCW before I apply? It won't be the XD9 (I love it, but I got nowhere to hide that sucker). I fired a Glock 19 at the last Calguns range meetup and really liked it, but I understand they are both expensive and hard to find in the current market. I can't really justify the expense for the Glock, or an even more compact gun, unless I know I will be able to use it -- and I know there's a good chance I WON'T get the CCW even with the PO (I can hear you laughing). Is there any chance I'll find out whether my application has been approved before I have to name or range-test a particular gun, and if so, how much time will I have to find an appropriate gun and get good with it?

If anyone has other recommendations for a good CCW (and I've seen the videos of the models in bikinis hiding big guns, and NO, I can't do that) I'd love to hear 'em.
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Old 03-18-2013, 1:13 PM
HappyCamper781 HappyCamper781 is offline
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Unless you know someone high up at the County Sheriff / government or city PD / city gov where you reside, this is pretty much a certain denial. And a denial will hurt your future chances for getting a CCW.
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Old 03-18-2013, 1:14 PM
HappyCamper781 HappyCamper781 is offline
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(Your best bet within the law is to maintain a part-time residence in another county that has more liberal CCW issuance laws, and apply ONLY in that county, the CCW is good state wide.)
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:17 PM
Kid Stanislaus Kid Stanislaus is offline
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It rings a bell with me that if you have an RO out on somebody violent that RO IS your LTC. However, I'm really unsure of your status as a "protected person".
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Old 03-19-2013, 9:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Stanislaus View Post
It rings a bell with me that if you have an RO out on somebody violent that RO IS your LTC. However, I'm really unsure of your status as a "protected person".
Umm, No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyCamper781 View Post
(Your best bet within the law is to maintain a part-time residence in another county that has more liberal CCW issuance laws, and apply ONLY in that county, the CCW is good state wide.)
Umm, no.
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Old 03-19-2013, 9:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyCamper781 View Post
(Your best bet within the law is to maintain a part-time residence in another county that has more liberal CCW issuance laws, and apply ONLY in that county, the CCW is good state wide.)
Oh, no, that doesn't work at all.

Law says an issuing agency may issue only to residents of that jurisdiction. There's no nice, neat definition for city or county residence (there are several for state residence), but agencies have their own opinions, and they do check.

One signs the application 'under penalty of perjury'; lie about one's residence, a bored local DA might decide to prosecute.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eam View Post
I helped a woman out last year, and now I'm a named protected person on a Criminal Protective Order - Domestic Violence against her ex. I got a pistol (XD9) and have been training with it. But since the pistol will only protect me from the guy if he comes at me inside my house, but not in my yard or while jogging around the neighborhood or while walking to and from my car -- I want a CCW.
Your best bet for support and cutting through the BS would be to engage the agency that issued the CPO (District Attorney?). The issuing agency is bound to contact them, and without their support, you won't be successful. If they won't support you, then you need another good cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eam View Post
Do I need to know what gun I will be listing as my CCW before I apply?
The law doesn't require this, but the issuing agency might. I did not have to identify the weapons until training and didn't have to notify the issuing agency until my final interview (Sacramento Sheriff).
Quote:
Originally Posted by eam View Post
Is there any chance I'll find out whether my application has been approved before I have to name or range-test a particular gun, and if so, how much time will I have to find an appropriate gun and get good with it?
In Sacramento, once initially approved, we were given a time frame to complete training and set up a final interview. Again, this process varies with issuing agencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eam View Post
If anyone has other recommendations for a good CCW (and I've seen the videos of the models in bikinis hiding big guns, and NO, I can't do that) I'd love to hear 'em.


As Librarian noted, a "new" address won't work. Also, the CPO probably has you located.

Best.

JR
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  #8  
Old 03-19-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Oh, no, that doesn't work at all.

Law says an issuing agency may issue only to residents of that jurisdiction. There's no nice, neat definition for city or county residence (there are several for state residence), but agencies have their own opinions, and they do check.

One signs the application 'under penalty of perjury'; lie about one's residence, a bored local DA might decide to prosecute.
It was an interesting theory, but I can't afford a second residence in CA anyway. It also seems like I would have heard of it before, as there'd be little co-op camps just outside of LA county lines full of part-time "residents" collecting CCW permits and nothing else :-)

And the presence of a protective order could be used as a defense at my trial for illegally carrying, which might or might not work depending on the jury -- but it doesn't serve as a card I can show the police arresting me for illegally carrying that would cause them to not do that.

As to my original question, I downloaded the application and read it, and it looks like I have to list the actual weapons I want to carry (make, model, caliber and serial number) on the application. So... I'd have to know what I want to carry and actually BUY IT before applying for a permit I'm almost certain to not get. Nice. Thanks.

I really hate CA sometimes.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:54 AM
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The standard application does require you to list your weapons. But this is the least of your problems, IMO. List what you currently have and apply. It will all be moot when you are denied anyway (sorry bud).

If by some miracle you aren't denied, then at worse, you can always add additional handguns to your application after training or to your permit after issuance. But these will be good problems to have and a lot easier to handle.

Get approved first, then worry about the rest.

BTW, this isn't a CA problem, its an LA County problem.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:02 AM
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Another case of misplaced aggression. The CCW policy in LA County is up the the acting Sheriff.
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Old 03-19-2013, 2:42 PM
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Unless I am misunderstanding his post, it seems that the OP may be justified to conceal carry without a permit.

CA penal code 12031

12031.j.2
Quote:
A violation of this section is justifiable when a person who possesses a firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current restraining order issued by a court against another person or persons who has or have been found to pose a threat to his or her life or safety. This paragraph may not apply when the circumstances involve a mutual restraining order issued pursuant to Division 10 (commencing with Section 6200) of the Family Code absent a factual finding of a specific threat to the person's life or safety. It is not the intent of the Legislature to limit, restrict, or narrow the application of current statutory or judicial authority to apply this or other justifications to defendants charged with violating Section 12025 or of committing other similar offenses.
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Old 03-19-2013, 2:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
BTW, this isn't a CA problem, its an LA County problem.
The fact a sheriff can deny a law abiding citizen their rights is a CA problem.
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  #13  
Old 03-19-2013, 3:00 PM
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LUCC - Locked, Unloaded, conceal carry. With the RO you can legally defend yourself until police arrive.
Just beware of prohibited places.
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  #14  
Old 03-19-2013, 3:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmGuy View Post
Unless I am misunderstanding his post, it seems that the OP may be justified to conceal carry without a permit.

CA penal code 12031

12031.j.2
Current number is 26045 (time to catch up - renumbering has been in effect since Jan 2012) and the OP has pointed out this part
Quote:
Upon trial for violating Section 25850, the trier of fact shall determine whether the defendant was acting out of a reasonable belief that the defendant was in grave danger.
makes carry a bit less practical, since if used, as usual, one might be arrested and prosecuted, and have to use that as a defense before a jury.
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  #15  
Old 03-19-2013, 3:42 PM
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Thanks Librarian, I was hoping you would chime in on that.
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  #16  
Old 03-19-2013, 4:24 PM
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To recap:
1. Contact the issuer of the CPO. If they won't support you, you have no chance. If they will support you, they can sweep away the red tape.

2. The statewide app asks for weapons. Some issuing agencies don't require it until later. If #1 above is successful, they can help you here, too.

You're making this too hard. Unfil you talk to the CPO issuer, further conjecture is just that.

Cheers.
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  #17  
Old 03-19-2013, 5:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
To recap:
1. Contact the issuer of the CPO. If they won't support you, you have no chance. If they will support you, they can sweep away the red tape.

Thanks. I have a call in to her anyway -- it looks like the guy might have violated whatever agreement he had in place that got him sprung the last time, and the DA didn't know about it.
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Old 03-19-2013, 6:06 PM
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The only way you will know is to apply, period.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:30 AM
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A Residence is a Residence, legally. Please cite the relevant civic code that states it's illegal for me to maintain an apartment in San Bernadino or some other county and live there part time and apply for a CCW in that county.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:40 AM
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Based on my memory in Kern county we had to prove that we lived full time. I know riverside does the same

EDIT: A quick search on Fresno county says you have to prove full time, Several other counties websites and apps that I looked at say the same.

Edit x2: You must be a full time resident of SBC but outside of any incorporated city limits.( Exception: any Sheriff contracted city.) for the county you said

Last edited by Jonnyboy182; 03-20-2013 at 11:55 AM..
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyCamper781 View Post
A Residence is a Residence, legally. Please cite the relevant civic code that states it's illegal for me to maintain an apartment in San Bernadino or some other county and live there part time and apply for a CCW in that county.
PC 26150
Quote:
(a) When a person applies for a license to carry a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, the sheriff of a county may issue a license to that person
upon proof of all of the following:
(1) The applicant is of good moral character.
(2) Good cause exists for issuance of the license.
(3) The applicant is a resident of the county or a city within the
county, or the applicant's principal place of employment or business
is in the county or a city within the county and the applicant
spends a substantial period of time in that place of employment or
business.

(4) The applicant has completed a course of training as described
in Section 26165.
The 'place of business' might get you a 90-day license, not the 2-year variety.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:12 PM
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I'm focusing on the word Residence, not place of employment or business (since that's LA county).

Again, what is illegal in the practice of maintaining a residence (where I get mail, pay bills, am on the lease for) in (this example) San Bernadino County, and applying for a CCW in San Bernadino county?

If it helps, I can say my LA county residence is only where I stay for work, I can and will state for the record that I consider my SB County residence my "primary" residence. I would likely use the SB address for tax purposes as well.

Edit: Is there a definition of "full time resident"? Would maintaining a vacation home or out of state residence violate this statute? I would THINK not, but you guys seem to be interpreting the CC pretty strictly.

Last edited by HappyCamper781; 03-20-2013 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:18 PM
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It does, at least in the counties I quoted. Before becoming a LEO, I applied for my CCW in Kern. The BG guy flat out asked me where I live, and if I lived anywhere else during the year. I believe the packet says that too. Read all the applications, it will say "full time" resident. By full time it would mean just that.. Full time lol

And it is strict... its California :-p
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:43 PM
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The biggest question not asked is, did you apply for the ro or were you named, based upon the police report in the victim's order, and did you request it?
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyCamper781 View Post
I'm focusing on the word Residence, not place of employment or business (since that's LA county).

Again, what is illegal in the practice of maintaining a residence (where I get mail, pay bills, am on the lease for) in (this example) San Bernadino County, and applying for a CCW in San Bernadino county?

If it helps, I can say my LA county residence is only where I stay for work, I can and will state for the record that I consider my SB County residence my "primary" residence. I would likely use the SB address for tax purposes as well.

Edit: Is there a definition of "full time resident"? Would maintaining a vacation home or out of state residence violate this statute? I would THINK not, but you guys seem to be interpreting the CC pretty strictly.
I already noted that there is no definition of "resident of the county or a city within the county,".

For example, Elections Code
Quote:
349.
(a) “Residence” for voting purposes means a person’s domicile.

(b) The domicile of a person is that place in which his or her habitation is fixed, wherein the person has the intention of remaining, and to which, whenever he or she is absent, the person has the intention of returning. At a given time, a person may have only one domicile.

(c) The residence of a person is that place in which the person’s habitation is fixed for some period of time, but wherein he or she does not have the intention of remaining. At a given time, a person may have more than one residence.

...

2031.
If a person has more than one residence and that person maintains a homeowner’s property tax exemption on the dwelling of one of the residences pursuant to Section 218 of the Revenue and Taxation Code, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that the residence subject to the homeowner’s property tax exemption is that person’s domicile. However, this presumption shall not apply in the event any other residence is listed as the person’s current residence address on any driver’s license, identification card or vehicle registration issued to that person by, and on file with, the Department of Motor Vehicles.

If a person has more than one residence and that person claims a renter’s tax credit for one of the residences pursuant to Section 17053.5 of the Revenue and Taxation Code, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that the residence subject to the renter’s tax credit is that person’s domicile. However, this presumption shall not apply in the event any other residence is listed as the person’s current residence address on any driver’s license, identification card, or vehicle registration issued to that person by, and on file with, the Department of Motor Vehicles.

This section shall not be applicable to state or federal elected officials.

(Enacted by Stats. 1994, Ch. 920, Sec. 2.)

2032.
Except as provided in this article, if a person has more than one residence and that person has not physically resided at any one of the residences within the immediate preceding year, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that those residences in which he or she has not so resided within the immediate preceding year are merely residences as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 349 and not his or her domicile.
I'd be happy if a Sheriff or other issuer would use this 349 (b) 'domicile' definition (presuming one is compelled to accept the current state of the law; really makes no sense to have a state license contingent on some connection to a smaller political subdivision than 'state').

I rather suspect one would have to call one's local issuing agency and ask what means they use to determine if one is a 'resident'. I know of no 'official guidance' on the point.

ETA We do have Government Code
Quote:
244.
In determining the place of residence the following rules shall be observed:

(a) It is the place where one remains when not called elsewhere for labor or other special or temporary purpose, and to which he or she returns in seasons of repose.

(b) There can only be one residence.

(c) A residence cannot be lost until another is gained.

(d) The residence of the parent with whom an unmarried minor child maintains his or her place of abode is the residence of such unmarried minor child.

(e) The residence of an unmarried minor who has a parent living cannot be changed by his or her own act.

(f) The residence can be changed only by the union of act and intent.

(g) A married person shall have the right to retain his or her legal residence in the State of California notwithstanding the legal residence or domicile of his or her spouse.
which actually seems relevant, since a lot of powers of a Sheriff are outlined there.
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Last edited by Librarian; 03-20-2013 at 12:51 PM..
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  #26  
Old 04-02-2013, 1:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmGuy View Post
Unless I am misunderstanding his post, it seems that the OP may be justified to conceal carry without a permit.

CA penal code 12031

12031.j.2
And a justifiable reason for an LTC
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