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  #1  
Old 03-01-2013, 1:56 PM
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Default Using a C&R License to buy for a friend: thoughts?

Lets say I have a friend who is 100% free and clear to own a firearm, who will sign a Firearms Bill of Sale invoice attesting to that fact, who will give me a copy of their driver's license... basically lets say this fictitious person is the perfect firearms owner.

The trouble is, lets pretend, that the C&R long gun they want to buy is out of state. Lets further pretend that the seller says he is willing to ship to a California FFL01, or a C&R license holder.

Lets also say this is a one time favor. I am very aware that my license is not to be used for resale purposes, and that it is not to be used as a means to deal in firearms. If this fictitious friend asked a second time, I would advise them to get their own C&R license, or go through an FFL03. But if its just a one shot?

What say you? Is it legal to help this theoretical friend out? Is it a 'good idea'? 'Bad idea'? Gray area? Why? Why not?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old 03-01-2013, 1:58 PM
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straw purchase, forbidden, prison, etc. ...
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Old 03-01-2013, 1:59 PM
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Personally, I'd buy it and then do the transfer at an FFL01 and have him wait the ten days. In that time you can sell him on getting his own C&R.
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Old 03-01-2013, 2:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
straw purchase, forbidden, prison, etc. ...
Technically, this isn't true. A straw purchase relates to the Form 4473 when being filled out at an FFL01; when filling it out at your dealer, if you put down your name as the ultimate possessor when you're not, that's a "straw purchase".

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms...episode-4.html

In my example, there would be no 4473 or FFL01...
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Old 03-01-2013, 2:07 PM
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The C&R FFL is for enhancing your collection. How exactly would this do that?
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Old 03-01-2013, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AragornElessar86 View Post
This is a long gun that the theoretical buyer could have mailed to him because it's C&R, but the seller won't do that? In that case I don't see anything wrong with it. If it's a gun he's supposed to go through a FFL for, then don't.
Long guns from out of state must go to some type of FFL. There is no CA C&R exemption for unlicensed persons with guns coming from out of state.


For the OP. This is not what your licensed for and could be considered as a straw purchase. Your license is specifically for enhancing your collection, not doing favors for unlicensed friends. You have to consider if risking your license and charges are worth it. Also if your friend is truly a friend, if he knew that it put you at risk, he wouldn't want you to do it.
Tell your friend to have the rifle shipped to a 01FFL just like every other unlicensed person is required to do.
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Old 03-01-2013, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Long guns from out of state must go to some type of FFL. There is no CA C&R exemption for unlicensed persons with guns coming from out of state.
How does CMP get away with it?
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Old 03-01-2013, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AragornElessar86 View Post
How does CMP get away with it?
They were created by Congress and have an exemption.
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Old 03-01-2013, 2:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AragornElessar86 View Post
How does CMP get away with it?
CMP operates under a special exemption as they were chartered by Congress.


As for the OP's question. That's not a permissible use of an 03FFL. Don't do it; don't ask someone to do it. emcon5 answered the question.

Kindest regards,

Jake
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  #10  
Old 03-01-2013, 2:29 PM
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There are a few schools of thought on this:
My understanding is that your 03 allows YOU to collect guns. You can't deal guns meaning, you can't buy guns and resell them. You can sell guns you have to make room in your collection, to gather money to buy different guns, because you tire of the gun, or (according to some people) to cull one gun of many that you bought.

I am of the opinion that I need to be able to answer the ATF (should they ask to look at my bound book) for every gun I acquire and dispose of. If I pick up a gun and hold on to it for a bit and ultimately decide I'm just not into it and I sell it, I'm not worried about it. If I buy a gun and dispose of it that same day, I would think that looks suspicious. Likewise, I'm of the opinion that if I buy a gun and find out a year later than I can get 200% of what I paid for it and sell it, the ATF shouldn't have a problem with it. I bought it with the intent of adding it to my collection (which I did) but later had an opportunity to sell it at a personal gain. I did NOT buy it with the intent of flipping it. I imagine it could be a problem if I show a pattern of doing that, but I'd have to go through the rules again.

So, buying for your buddy is not what you should be doing.

Anyway, that's my advice, it's at least worth what you paid for it.
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  #11  
Old 03-01-2013, 2:50 PM
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I'm convinced. You guys are right. Legalities (or not) aside, the intent of the license is pretty clear. To use it for other reasons, if nothing else, violates that intent, and that's not something I'm comfortable doing.

I appreciate it guys. You know, if this had a real consideration, I mean
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  #12  
Old 03-01-2013, 4:35 PM
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Tell your buddy you'll do it- but you get to keep it and shoot it for 6 months to a year to make it legal

-Dave
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Old 03-01-2013, 7:10 PM
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The how would the Expertish Group Buy be legal? Was he not going to AZ to buy a bunch of Mosins for folks? Is that gun running?
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Old 03-01-2013, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by winnre View Post
The how would the Expertish Group Buy be legal? Was he not going to AZ to buy a bunch of Mosins for folks? Is that gun running?
I've often wondered that myself. How is this guy not getting hammered by the ATF? Taking money from people before you even get the firearm?
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Old 03-01-2013, 7:59 PM
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Your buddy can apply for his own 03FFL. When he receives his 03FFL, then he can make a offer for your firearm. If I want to sell a C&R rifle I own, I sell to another 03FFL holder or put the rifle up for consignment with a 01FFL dealer
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Old 03-01-2013, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by winnre View Post
The how would the Expertish Group Buy be legal? Was he not going to AZ to buy a bunch of Mosins for folks? Is that gun running?
I'm assuming that in situations like this the original purchaser is operating under the premise that they will be buying a pile of guns so they can hand select the one that will remain i their collection and will be offloading the rest. If it's 100% legit and the DOJ will see it the same way is another story.
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Old 03-01-2013, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by winnre View Post
The how would the Expertish Group Buy be legal? Was he not going to AZ to buy a bunch of Mosins for folks? Is that gun running?
I raised the same question when he started the original thread and he claimed that since he was picking out the best ones, he was "enhancing" his collection. I thought it was a steaming pile of poop... especially since he was physically going to J&G and picking up the rifles, therefore he could easily sort through and find the ones he wanted without buying all the leftovers.

The pre-payment thing is definitely the icing on the cake though.
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Old 03-02-2013, 3:59 PM
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Originally Posted by .22guy View Post
I've often wondered that myself. How is this guy not getting hammered by the ATF? Taking money from people before you even get the firearm?
Most likely he hasn't been audited by the BATF. They definately asked me how many C&R firearms I had aquired and sold, during the audit of my collection and Bound Book a couple summers ago. A high number of "sold" makes them think you are "dealing" and opens you to further scrutiny.
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Old 03-02-2013, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Toyman321 View Post
I'm assuming that in situations like this the original purchaser is operating under the premise that they will be buying a pile of guns so they can hand select the one that will remain i their collection and will be offloading the rest. If it's 100% legit and the DOJ will see it the same way is another story.
BATF would be the one concerned with determining if you are "dealing" not DOJ, an 03 FFL is Federal License, not State.
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Old 03-05-2013, 4:54 PM
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The how would the Expertish Group Buy be legal? Was he not going to AZ to buy a bunch of Mosins for folks? Is that gun running?
Its kinda like playing with fire.........after you poured gasoline all over your face.
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Old 03-05-2013, 5:01 PM
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They were created by Congress and have an exemption.
Exemption? Oh heeeelllll no. BOYCOTT
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Old 03-05-2013, 6:34 PM
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A C&R is only for "enhancing your own collection".

Hmmmm... seems like those guys at the gun shows would be in a lot of trouble, huh?
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Old 03-05-2013, 7:23 PM
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so when i bought a mosin ftf at a gun show to give my dad, i committed a heinous felony? oh dear god no! can't even think of how many folks on here ordered like 8 SKS's on that last run that came in. sure they kept all of 'em though. right? i've just concluded that a great many 03 holders are kinda like sunday christians.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJ View Post
Technically, this isn't true. A straw purchase relates to the Form 4473 when being filled out at an FFL01; when filling it out at your dealer, if you put down your name as the ultimate possessor when you're not, that's a "straw purchase".

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms...episode-4.html

In my example, there would be no 4473 or FFL01...
I was letting this go, but since the thread's been revived ... This is kind of like saying it's not cheating if your wife never asks any questions.

Still, I think the OP is correct in assuming that the lie (for an 01FFL transfer) is a much more serious offense.

That may be changing, though: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...fficking-bill/
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Old 03-06-2013, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by knucklehead0202 View Post
so when i bought a mosin ftf at a gun show to give my dad, i committed a heinous felony? oh dear god no! can't even think of how many folks on here ordered like 8 SKS's on that last run that came in. sure they kept all of 'em though. right? i've just concluded that a great many 03 holders are kinda like sunday christians.
I think you missed the point. Purchasing a case, going through it, keeping the best, is one thing. Taking pre-orders and payment from various people and then going to a dealer and buying all the rifles in person is another.
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Old 03-07-2013, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
I think you missed the point. Purchasing a case, going through it, keeping the best, is one thing. Taking pre-orders and payment from various people and then going to a dealer and buying all the rifles in person is another.
BOTH paths are illegal IMHO and would most CERTAINLY give the anti's ammo to eliminate C&R licenses. . . is that what ANYBODY wants?

I've had a C&R since 1972 (really, no kidding) and I have not done anything like what has been mentioned in this thread to violate the intent of a C&R license. I suggest none of you do so, either, or the party will be OVER for all of us (even those who have not done anything to deserve it).
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Old 03-08-2013, 8:28 AM
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Well if you bought an extra gun with your C&R , then picked the nicest of the two, and happened to trade or sell the other one to your friend, to enhance your collection, that would fall in the realm of your C&R licence. Just keep track of everything in your bound book. I have known people in the past that would buy 4-5 rifles at a time and cherry pick the nicest one, and trade the others over time to get old surplus ammo, or other rifles that they wanted for their collection.
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Old 03-08-2013, 8:32 AM
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Old 03-08-2013, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by empirearms View Post
BOTH paths are illegal IMHO and would most CERTAINLY give the anti's ammo to eliminate C&R licenses. . . is that what ANYBODY wants?

I've had a C&R since 1972 (really, no kidding) and I have not done anything like what has been mentioned in this thread to violate the intent of a C&R license. I suggest none of you do so, either, or the party will be OVER for all of us (even those who have not done anything to deserve it).
That is the exact same reasoning that I used to warn people about that 03FFL's in CA purchasing those like new Yugo M59's from Widener's, that were in reality M59/56's without the grenade launcher installed and in no way 50+ years old and that Widener's did not claim that they were. It was the same when I pointed out that many Hakim's were not 50+ year old therefore could not legally be shipped to a 03FFL in CA unless properly dated. When I pointed out that violations like this this could screw it up for all CA 03FFL's, all I got was a bunch of grief from certain members here who basically didn't care as long as they got the guns that they wanted.
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  #30  
Old 03-28-2013, 11:31 AM
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Does the purchase of a C&R long gun through an FFL (purchased from out of state and shipped to FFL) require a DROS? I'm not interested in another 90 day wait, I'd rather apply for a C&R license.
Thanks!

Last edited by JoeyJ; 03-28-2013 at 11:33 AM.. Reason: grammer
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:42 AM
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Any purchase through an 01 FFL requires a DROS.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:44 AM
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I have a question then, what if you had purchased a Mosin for yourself and 8 months later gave it as a gift to an eligible person? No money as a sale just a gift.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:13 PM
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Gifting a Mosin Nagant is a private party transfer of an C&R firearm that doesn't require an 01 FFL, as long as the recipient can lawfully own a firearm. I would still require the recipient to sign a statement that he/she is not prohibited from owning a firearm with the date of transfer and the rifle's serial number. Contact CA DOJ if you are not sure. You don't want to break the law.

Last edited by TrexTracker; 03-28-2013 at 12:17 PM..
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Old 03-28-2013, 3:28 PM
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Quote:
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Any purchase through an 01 FFL requires a DROS.
Thanks! After my last delay experiences I filled out the C&R application today, lol. You guys save an SKS for me, lol.
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