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  #1  
Old 02-22-2013, 8:48 PM
J_BEEM J_BEEM is offline
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Default Premier Reticles - Tactical & Light Tactical Review

Nice write up about Premier's tactical line up.

http://www.primalrights.com/forum/vi...hp?f=27&t=7070
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  #2  
Old 02-24-2013, 7:22 AM
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well after reading the article and checking out the pics I was set on getting one, til I saw the price... yeah what a joke
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  #3  
Old 02-24-2013, 10:27 AM
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I hate to say this, but from what I have heard "Professionals" say, only the non-professional guy buys this type of gear.

A guy who gets paid to shoot a person in the head at 500 yards doesnt buy a $3000 scope from an "off-brand" manufacturer even when that manufacturer says they did everything right and have the best of the best on the inside.

Those Professional guys only buy and only use the gear that has been tested by non-bias departments and have been placed on a list of acceptable gear to issue/own.

I have never heard of "Premier" before...then again I am not a Professional sniper. The two guys I know who are, one uses a Nightforce, the other uses a Leupold.

So as a non-professional, I am NOT about to be a test-case @ $2,500. I will buy a Leupold, Nightforce, Trijicon.

Many people have this same philosophy at the $500 price range...I didnt. I used a C-More ATAC for the price of an Aimpoint T1. I knew from Professional Competition Shooters that this was a great optic and it was, yet most combat professional wouldnt buy it over an Aimpoint...due to the fact 90% of the other Combat Professionals didnt.
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Old 02-24-2013, 1:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
I hate to say this, but from what I have heard "Professionals" say, only the non-professional guy buys this type of gear.

A guy who gets paid to shoot a person in the head at 500 yards doesnt buy a $3000 scope from an "off-brand" manufacturer even when that manufacturer says they did everything right and have the best of the best on the inside.

Those Professional guys only buy and only use the gear that has been tested by non-bias departments and have been placed on a list of acceptable gear to issue/own.

I have never heard of "Premier" before...then again I am not a Professional sniper. The two guys I know who are, one uses a Nightforce, the other uses a Leupold.

So as a non-professional, I am NOT about to be a test-case @ $2,500. I will buy a Leupold, Nightforce, Trijicon.

Many people have this same philosophy at the $500 price range...I didnt. I used a C-More ATAC for the price of an Aimpoint T1. I knew from Professional Competition Shooters that this was a great optic and it was, yet most combat professional wouldnt buy it over an Aimpoint...due to the fact 90% of the other Combat Professionals didnt.
So you are basing this off of second hand knowledge that comes from two of your so called "professional" buddies?

Do a little research before you start making assumptions. They have been around for quite some time and in recent times they built day scopes for the USMC snipers. They are by no means an "off brand".
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Old 02-24-2013, 1:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
A guy who gets paid to shoot a person in the head at 500 yards doesnt buy a $3000 scope from an "off-brand"
Point in fact, that guy doesn't buy anything. The unit or agency he's attached to buys it. He doesn't have much of a choice other than to use what he's issued. Those of us that have served, know this.

There was a time when nightforce was an "off brand." U.S. Optics as well. At some point, everything was "new" and unproven. This doesn't change the fact that Leupold stopped being the only game in town around 10 years ago. Since then the high end optics market has been becoming increasingly crowded as various manufacturers have come to the table with their own high end products. U.S. Optics, Nightforce, S&B, Vortex, IOR, Premier, March, Bushnell, Kahles, Leupold, Steiner, and Zeiss just to name a few. ALL of them have products in the $2000-$3500 category and virtually all of them are under contract from some military or law enforcement agency to provide those top end optics.

Are you aware that U.S.M.C scout snipers have been using the Premier 3-15 as their primary day optic since 2008? If they don't qualify as "professionals" then I'm not just too sure who would.

Every single person whom I've had run one of these Premier's next to a Schmidt & Bender, chooses the Premier. I keep at least one S&B 5-25 around just for this reason. People ask, "so what's better, the S&B or Premier?" I say, "rather than have me tell you, why don't you play with each for a while and then you tell me." As of the last 6 months, no one chooses the S&B.

The Premier 3-15x50 Tactical counts itself easily and unquestionably among the top 5 rifle scopes ever produced, at any price.

Now this is just a polite suggestion, but perhaps you should get one in your hands... maybe even shoot behind one, before damning it? Just a thought.

Last edited by Orkan; 02-24-2013 at 1:57 PM..
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  #6  
Old 02-25-2013, 7:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
I have never heard of "Premier" before...
Lurk moar, post less.
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  #7  
Old 02-25-2013, 10:09 AM
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You boys know that Premier is one of the oldest names in the game. They have been doing the reticles and sfp to ffp conversion for marine sniper rifles since WWII.

A while ago they basically took the Schmidt & Bender design team, created a company called Optronika and started making Premier scopes for the US Marine Day Sniper scope program.

If you've never heard of Premier, it's not because they're a nobody.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:10 AM
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Sorry typing on phone just realized someone beat me to it. Btw I put my S&B 5-25 next to my Premier 5-25 and I dare say the image on the Premier is superior not to mention the turrets.
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  #9  
Old 02-25-2013, 10:11 AM
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Wow Premier has been around forever and makes top of the line stuff. I've been impressed by everything I've seen from them.


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  #10  
Old 02-25-2013, 10:20 AM
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I'm glad there are those that know what's up over here.

The first two replies were shocking.
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  #11  
Old 02-25-2013, 10:50 AM
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I thought they were shocking to. I also find it shocking how folks will spend $2k on a rifle then try to buy a $200 scope for it.

It's supposed to be the other way around folks.
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Old 02-28-2013, 1:30 PM
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they maybe all that but my zeiss is better than i can shoot and that is all i need.
and the price is nuts i cant justify spending that much on a scope.
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  #13  
Old 02-28-2013, 1:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 1snakedoc View Post
they maybe all that but my zeiss is better than i can shoot and that is all i need.
and the price is nuts i cant justify spending that much on a scope.
Will you consider one when you become a better shooter?
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Old 02-28-2013, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 1snakedoc View Post
they maybe all that but my zeiss is better than i can shoot and that is all i need.
and the price is nuts i cant justify spending that much on a scope.
The thing is... that can be said about almost everything you probably own.... including your Zeiss scope.

What may seem crazy to you, doesn't mean it is.

I think people that dump $30K into their $20K japanese car are DAFT, but to them, it's not crazy at all. :P
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  #15  
Old 02-28-2013, 3:53 PM
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BTW, I used to think people that bought Zeiss scopes were insane! HOLY smokes they're so expensive! I was quite happy with my $200 Nikon.

It all changes depending on how deep you are into your sport.
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  #16  
Old 03-01-2013, 10:04 AM
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That explains it quite well Dave.

There are those that are serious... and those that are not. Those that are serious find there are only a precious few options that suite them, out of a sea of thousands of rifle scopes.
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Old 03-01-2013, 4:01 PM
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i can see where you are coming from.
i did not think i will upgrade any time soon, as i dont have any where i can shoot more that 350 yards, to much trees. im not a sniper but i know how to shoot and have been top shot out of +200 people more than one time.
besides a good shooter can take a cheap scope and shoot great where someone who is ok needs a better scope to shoot 1/2 as good.
i was never one to put $$$ in to something, just enough to make it work good.
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  #18  
Old 03-01-2013, 4:46 PM
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besides a good shooter can take a cheap scope and shoot great where someone who is ok needs a better scope to shoot 1/2 as good.
Not true at all. A scope does not make you shoot better. It either works or it doesnt.
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Old 03-01-2013, 5:08 PM
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I have two Premier 5-25x56 scopes, both with Gen2 XR reticles. Before I bought them I had two S&Bs on order, I cancelled the S&B order and got the Premiers instead. My get another, or try another top brand.
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Old 03-01-2013, 5:10 PM
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Not true at all. A scope does not make you shoot better. It either works or it doesnt.

Not completely true. You can be an awesome shooter and a scope can limit you.

One of the biggest issue with scopes in the "basic" price range, and even some of the 1500-2500 scopes is tracking. Many scopes do not "track" correctly. For example, you can move the elevation up 10 clicks, then windage right 10 clicks. Then you move them both back 10 clicks. Most scopes will NOT be in the same place.

Tracking is extremely important when you get into unknown distance shooting with multiple targets. That is one of the goals of these scopes.
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Old 03-01-2013, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by PolishMike View Post
Not completely true. You can be an awesome shooter and a scope can limit you.

One of the biggest issue with scopes in the "basic" price range, and even some of the 1500-2500 scopes is tracking. Many scopes do not "track" correctly. For example, you can move the elevation up 10 clicks, then windage right 10 clicks. Then you move them both back 10 clicks. Most scopes will NOT be in the same place.

Tracking is extremely important when you get into unknown distance shooting with multiple targets. That is one of the goals of these scopes.

Completely agree. That is what im saying! A scope does not help you shoot better. It will either work or not work. If its not working correctly then a good shooter will still shoot like crap! If its working correctly a OK shooter will still be OK not great.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Iloveguns View Post
A scope does not help you shoot better.
I disagree with this.

If we were to take a rifle that shoots 1/4 moa, and top it with a fixed 4x, it would be harder to make it perform to its potential than if it were topped with a 5-25x.

A scopes features are what differentiate it from the rest of the offerings out there, provided that we are comparing optics that function/track correctly.

For instance, the externally adjustable tool-less zero stop on Premier Tactical scopes. Adjusting the zero stop and turret zero on them, is far easier, and takes much less time than on any other rifle scope in existence. That is a function which differentiates it from others, in that it allows the shooter to more easily manipulate the optic. The same can be said of the ultra-solid clicks which leave no guess-work as to which click you are currently in.

It is these core functions of optics which separate the various models out there. Think of all the different functions of which optics are judged by:

1) Clarity and resolution of image
2) Tracking ability
3) Reticle choices and subtension accuracy
4) Magnification ability
5) Ability to hold zero
6) Turret clicks, and how solid or defined they are
7) Zero stop, and how easy it is to adjust
8) Turrets that easily reset to zero

Imagine the difference it would make to setup a shot on two sequential targets, one at 600yds, and the other at 1200yds. In one instance you have an optic with no zero stop, only 4 mils per turret revolution, and a fixed 10x magnification. In the other instance, you have a Premier 5-25 with all of its features.

To say that the two optics with each functioning properly make no difference in a good shooters hands, is quite untrue. Hardware choice makes a big difference in performance capability, regardless of skill level. After all, you don't see factory corvette's entering in the indy 500.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
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I disagree with this.

*tl;dr*
because you didn't understand the context of his post
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Orkan View Post
I disagree with this.

If we were to take a rifle that shoots 1/4 moa, and top it with a fixed 4x, it would be harder to make it perform to its potential than if it were topped with a 5-25x.

A scopes features are what differentiate it from the rest of the offerings out there, provided that we are comparing optics that function/track correctly.

For instance, the externally adjustable tool-less zero stop on Premier Tactical scopes. Adjusting the zero stop and turret zero on them, is far easier, and takes much less time than on any other rifle scope in existence. That is a function which differentiates it from others, in that it allows the shooter to more easily manipulate the optic. The same can be said of the ultra-solid clicks which leave no guess-work as to which click you are currently in.

It is these core functions of optics which separate the various models out there. Think of all the different functions of which optics are judged by:

1) Clarity and resolution of image
2) Tracking ability
3) Reticle choices and subtension accuracy
4) Magnification ability
5) Ability to hold zero
6) Turret clicks, and how solid or defined they are
7) Zero stop, and how easy it is to adjust
8) Turrets that easily reset to zero

Imagine the difference it would make to setup a shot on two sequential targets, one at 600yds, and the other at 1200yds. In one instance you have an optic with no zero stop, only 4 mils per turret revolution, and a fixed 10x magnification. In the other instance, you have a Premier 5-25 with all of its features.

To say that the two optics with each functioning properly make no difference in a good shooters hands, is quite untrue. Hardware choice makes a big difference in performance capability, regardless of skill level. After all, you don't see factory corvette's entering in the indy 500.
And an amateur driver driving an Indy car is still an amateur. You totally missed what he is saying. Hes saying that a good scope doesn't make a crappy shooter shoot better. We're obviously comparing 2 working scopes of equal features and different perceived quality and/or price. Its a no brainer that picking the options that fit the job best well make the job easier for anyone.. but putting an amateur in an Indy car and tossing them in the Indy 500 doesn't make them a good driver. It makes them a bad driver with a fast car.

Pick the scope features which make a difference in the job you're trying to do..after that its all on the shooter. Most tactical scopes nowadays are equipped with similar. features...retical, mag range, knobs...you get the point. Glass is over rated although i agree with the one poster above in that my premier has been the best of them all in the glass dept. I did break it though... along with 2- Schmidt's. Nightforce has been rock solid for me and believe it or not I've had great luck with the Bushnell DMR lately too. So in this case a scope does not make a person shoot better. A working scope does make a person shoot better.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:45 AM
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You totally missed what he is saying. Hes saying that a good scope doesn't make a crappy shooter shoot better. We're obviously comparing 2 working scopes of equal features and different perceived quality and/or price. Its a no brainer that picking the options that fit the job best well make the job easier for anyone.. but putting an amateur in an Indy car and tossing them in the Indy 500 doesn't make them a good driver. It makes them a bad driver with a fast car.
This^
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:47 PM
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I didn't miss what he was saying at all. I simply disagree.

Instructing new shooters on the finer points of precision rifle is part of what I do for a living. I know for a fact that I can make a shooter faster, more accurate, and more consistent by putting a better optic on their rifle, if they are currently using a lesser optic.

I have proven it with many people, on their rifles, on many occasions.

If you take my rifle and remove the 5-25, and put a fixed 4x on there... you've just handicapped me by diminishing my effective performance envelope. Every feature counts for something. So even if I went from my Premier 5-25 to a different 5-25 that didn't have exposed turrets, I'd still be handicapped.

Would you have me believe that the same shooter using a $200 NC Star 5-25 with equal features of a $3500 Premier 5-25 is going to perform to the same level with both optics? It's not just the features, but the quality in which they are implemented.

So to claim that the optic has no bearing on a marksman's proficiency is what I disagree with.

I am more capable with certain optics than I am others. This is a function of how well they work, what their magnification range is, and what they allow me to do. Were this not the case, the market for high end optics would not exist in the civilian or military worlds.

You put an amateur driver in a fast car, he's going to beat a professional driver in a golf cart. Equipment does have a bearing. I don't spend money on high end optics because I like spending money. I spend money on high end optics because that is what I must do in order to continue advancing my skills as a shooter. Of course this is a very difficult thing to explain to anyone who believes a leupold vari-x III is the worlds best scope.
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Old 03-02-2013, 1:51 PM
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Well then agree to disagree I guess! Figured it out nevermind!

Last edited by Iloveguns; 03-02-2013 at 1:54 PM..
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Old 03-02-2013, 2:14 PM
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Sorry last point.

You give a ****ty shooter a Vortex Viper PST
and he will shoot the same with a Premier on it. Possibly worse in a lot of premier cases I have seen! Again Scope does not make you shoot better if both work correctly.


PS Loopy Vari-xIII for life!!!
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Old 03-02-2013, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Orkan View Post
I didn't miss what he was saying at all. I simply disagree.

Instructing new shooters on the finer points of precision rifle is part of what I do for a living. I know for a fact that I can make a shooter faster, more accurate, and more consistent by putting a better optic on their rifle, if they are currently using a lesser optic.

I have proven it with many people, on their rifles, on many occasions.

If you take my rifle and remove the 5-25, and put a fixed 4x on there... you've just handicapped me by diminishing my effective performance envelope. Every feature counts for something. So even if I went from my Premier 5-25 to a different 5-25 that didn't have exposed turrets, I'd still be handicapped.

Would you have me believe that the same shooter using a $200 NC Star 5-25 with equal features of a $3500 Premier 5-25 is going to perform to the same level with both optics? It's not just the features, but the quality in which they are implemented.

So to claim that the optic has no bearing on a marksman's proficiency is what I disagree with.

I am more capable with certain optics than I am others. This is a function of how well they work, what their magnification range is, and what they allow me to do. Were this not the case, the market for high end optics would not exist in the civilian or military worlds.
See, the great thing about public forums is we can tell it how it is. I'm glad you're happy to be a premier dealer and you're probably super excited how bad a** they look and feel. Trust me, i LOVED my Premier. I don't own it any more because i couldn't trust it. I can say that because I'm also not trying to sell them. When i sent it back for repairs it still wouldn't track when i received it back. The turret locks were dragging after the repair too. I would have to look through the scope when the cams were unlocked and i was spinning the knob to make sure the reticle didn't move as i was resetting it to zero. There's plenty of bad info out there about Premier. I know you won't cop to it since you're trying to make sales but the info is out there for others to read.

Comparing 4x optics to 25x optics is just silly. You're almost implying that we're saying a shooter with open sights can just as easily shoot .25" groups as a shooter with a 25x scope with a thin reticle such as the Premier. My point is that when you start comparing Vortex scopes (much less money) with great features, SWFA (a little low on the features but still durable), Nightforce, Bushnell, all the way up to S&B it's not going to make a difference at all. Your race car comparison about the newbie in the race car is invalid because at some point the wheels are gonna fall off anyway from inexperience. I can give a guy 2 Rifles...one with a Premier and the other with a Bushnell for 1/3 the price and you're telling me he's going to make more shots with a Premier simply because he's using a more expensive (which obviously means better) riflescope? The only part of that argument i will somewhat side with is glass. Premier has exceptional glass. It's very nice for spotting holes in paper at longer distances and walking your shots in. The lesser glass quality scopes don't share that advantage.

The whole point of the post was that a rookie shooter can start with a Bushnell (any of the tactical line) and won't out grow it for a VERY long time. Hell, myself as well as a bunch of the guys i was with on Team GAP were all shooting Bushnells at a national level match 2 weeks ago. Guys shooting S&Bs, Premiers, and everything else. I didn't once feel disadvantaged by using a $1000 scope. Now, i prefer my NFs but this rifle just happened to have the DMR on it so i left it on for the match. It did GREAT!! The best part was i didn't have to worry about any problems with is as i have in the past competing with Premiers and S&Bs and it cost a fraction of the price.

Once again we have proven the point that a scope doesn't make someone a better shooter.

Stop comparing 4x scopes to 25x scopes or scopes that don't hold zero or track.

A scope that doesn't track or hold zero is a failure of a scope. If you gave me a $200 NCstar that held zero and tracks repeatably with FFP and enough magnifcation i could shoot anything i do with my NFs or Bushnells. The chances of getting a NCstar that did work would probably be slim to none but my point still stands.
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Old 03-02-2013, 3:28 PM
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Now this is just a polite suggestion, but perhaps you should get one in your hands... maybe even shoot behind one, before damning it? Just a thought.

No thanks, I have personally with my own eyes seen premier and S&B's go tits up and heard of even more through trusted friends/internet forums. At this point I would rather take the cardboard tube thats left over when my paper towels run out and tape two intersecting pieces of string at one end to use as a reticle rather then spend $3,500 on a "high end scope" thats prone to fail me and cause me to be caught in a repair limbo with the manufacturer until i sell it to a poor schmo too inlove with the concept of it to notice its a pos. Ill take a couple of NF/Vortex/bushnell scopes any day of the week for their reliability and ruggedness.
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Old 03-02-2013, 3:37 PM
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I've witnessed many shooters immediately improve when given better scopes to use.

This has happened too many times for it to not hold water. To say your bushnell can be counted on more than a new premier is a very telling tale. I sell bushnell as well, and your opinion does not track with what I've seen. Nor that of other dealers a hundred times larger than we are.

Yet I can see there is no point in this continuing. I'll save my effort for those with open minds.
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Old 03-02-2013, 3:41 PM
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I've owned 3 premier's. All had to go back for either turret or parallax issues, or both. I sold 2 and still have 1. It just came back from getting fixed a 2 weeks ago.

They are great scopes, if they stay working. Which sadly, I've not experienced that they do very long. There are 8 premier's in the group I shoot with. Of them 6 have made return trips to the factory. At $3000, this is disappointing. I only have about 400rnds through it since my latest 5-25 returned, so I can't say if it will hold up or not. Time will tell.



I could care less about the Premier argument but seems like you have changed a bit.
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Old 03-02-2013, 3:46 PM
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Premier has been around for quite some time. I have a 3-15x on my OBR and it has been performing very well. I bought it when they where sub $2K. No issues with mine. USMC shooters have been using them on their Mk11s if that matters.

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Old 03-02-2013, 4:25 PM
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I've owned 3 premier's. All had to go back for either turret or parallax issues, or both. I sold 2 and still have 1. It just came back from getting fixed a 2 weeks ago.

They are great scopes, if they stay working. Which sadly, I've not experienced that they do very long. There are 8 premier's in the group I shoot with. Of them 6 have made return trips to the factory. At $3000, this is disappointing. I only have about 400rnds through it since my latest 5-25 returned, so I can't say if it will hold up or not. Time will tell.
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I could care less about the Premier argument but seems like you have changed a bit.

DAMMMNNN GINA!

I dig this one too lol


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Originally Posted by Orkan View Post
If you talk to people that put thousands of rounds per year down range, you'll start to learn what really works, and what doesn't. Thus far, I've heard of more premier's going down than I care to remember.

Most people don't use their scopes nearly enough to make an informed statement on quality. Combine that with many forums censoring bad statements about products, and it can be very hard to get real information before spending $3,000.

Once the hensoldt 3-26 ships, premier will be a distant memory for me.
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Old 03-02-2013, 5:19 PM
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Damn shame how a person's opinio on a product quickly changes once they start stocking and selling said product...
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Old 03-02-2013, 5:57 PM
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I've witnessed many shooters immediately improve when given better scopes to use.

This has happened too many times for it to not hold water. To say your bushnell can be counted on more than a new premier is a very telling tale. I sell bushnell as well, and your opinion does not track with what I've seen. Nor that of other dealers a hundred times larger than we are.

Yet I can see there is no point in this continuing. I'll save my effort for those with open minds.
Maybe you need to get out more. Maybe you or the people you're hearing from aren't good enough shooters to realize where the problem lies. The problem with a lot of guys that get high end optics is that they have more money than brains or skill. They get an optic that costs a bunch and its in their mind that it's unbreakable. So when a zero shifts, something doesn't track right, or something doesn't return to zero, they think, surely it can't be the scope. They attribute it to negligible environmental conditions, wind, light direction, etc. When in fact, they're high dollar POS scope was the culprit.

My Premier spent more time at the factory being repaired than it did on my rifle. I've had 3 Schmidts that all went t*ts up. I've personally seen more Schmidts, Premiers, IORs (especially) fail as often or moreso than even LEUPOLDS! That's saying something. Add on to that the fact that Premier is just about out of business...things went downhill quickly after Dick's death...you're taking a risky bet buying Premier.

I've been running a Bushnell Tactical 3-21 for the last year in many major national precision rifle matches. It has held zero flying all across the country better than any European optic I've ever owned. The only scope I've owned that has performed as well has been my Nightforces (5 of them).

Like I said, get out more. You'll soon see that there are many issues coming to light with many European optics. Better yet, come on out to a match and see how your stuff stacks up. Guaranteed you'll get your a** handed to you by a guy shooting a Bushy or PST. Now more than ever in the optics world, you do not necessarily get what you pay for.
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Old 03-03-2013, 8:10 AM
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So because I sell a thing, I have no ethics and will do whatever it takes to sell it huh? You people are unbelievable.

My opinion changed as a result of talking with the new ownership, and finding that previous issues have been completely addressed. Had things stayed the same, my opinion would have stayed the same. Things evolve, and I'm not so stupid as to hold old grudges after the situation changes.

I shoot plenty of matches, and push my gear myself when I'm not. I get out plenty. I too have seen S&B's go down more often than anyone ever talks about. Point in fact, every top manufacturers flagship optic has failed in my presence at one point or another. So to say "premiers break, so I'm going to use this other thing" is ridiculous. The new bushnells you seem to be so fond of are built in the same place as nightforce, I'm told. ... and nightforce rejected the design, while bushnell picked it up. What does that say?

So this idea that I'm crooked, or don't get out much... well you can stuff that.
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Old 03-03-2013, 8:30 AM
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Well, on a side note, anyone notice those city pictures in the review? The unsuspecting dude in the crosshair, that doesn't look too good. Just saying.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:24 AM
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So because I sell a thing, I have no ethics and will do whatever it takes to sell it huh? You people are unbelievable.

My opinion changed as a result of talking with the new ownership, and finding that previous issues have been completely addressed. Had things stayed the same, my opinion would have stayed the same. Things evolve, and I'm not so stupid as to hold old grudges after the situation changes.

I shoot plenty of matches, and push my gear myself when I'm not. I get out plenty. I too have seen S&B's go down more often than anyone ever talks about. Point in fact, every top manufacturers flagship optic has failed in my presence at one point or another. So to say "premiers break, so I'm going to use this other thing" is ridiculous. The new bushnells you seem to be so fond of are built in the same place as nightforce, I'm told. ... and nightforce rejected the design, while bushnell picked it up. What does that say?

So this idea that I'm crooked, or don't get out much... well you can stuff that.
You're right that the new Bushnells are made in the same place as NF. What does that say about Bushnell? I highly doubt NF rejected the design. NF has their own line of scopes...why would they need one that looks and feels just like a beefy Bushnell?


We're just calling it how we see it man. Don't get all mad. The new ownership is just a big investor. Usually thats when companies get worse...not better.
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  #40  
Old 03-03-2013, 11:07 AM
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Lurk moar, post less.
as I also said... I am not a sniper... how about you do the same there killer...
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