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  #1  
Old 02-08-2013, 9:10 PM
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Default Assault Weapons for personal use by LEOs

Correct me if i'm wrong. But are LEOs allowed to purchase AWs or HiCap Mags for personal use? Or is it only for On-Duty use?

Always curious, because i always remember seeing 30 round ak-47 magazines for sale in gunstores. But they would say for LEO sale only etc... I think to myself i never heard or seen any LEOs carrying ak-47s in their patrol car or use them in duty.
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Old 02-08-2013, 9:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rofocale View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong. But are LEOs allowed to purchase AWs or HiCap Mags for personal use? Or is it only for On-Duty use?

Always curious, because i always remember seeing 30 round ak-47 magazines for sale in gunstores. But they would say for LEO sale only etc... I think to myself i never heard or seen any LEOs carrying ak-47s in their patrol car or use them in duty.
What is an Assault rifle to you ???
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Old 02-08-2013, 9:17 PM
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sorry i will clarify. Assault Rifle being a semi-auto rifle with the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has various features such as pistol grip etc...

So like an Ar-15 with detachable magazine and pistol grip. Something normally carried by LEOs in their patrol cars. That is what i mean by assault rifle.
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Old 02-08-2013, 9:18 PM
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LEOs are exempt from 10+ magazine law, they can purchase "hi-cap magazines" any time they want. They are not exempt from Assault Weapon laws and can only purchase and register a Assault Weapon if authorized by their department.
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  #5  
Old 02-08-2013, 9:24 PM
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ah ok that is cool. Is there a reason LEOs are exempt from HiCap mag purchases?
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Old 02-08-2013, 9:24 PM
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Quit drinking the Kool-aid. "Assault rifle" is a fabricated word like "Saturday night special" created by MSM and politicians to demonized firearms that are "scary" and give the impression that they are somehow more powerful and devastating than another rifle without a "scary" look. Semi-automatic rifles are NOT "assault rifles" -- if you accept the term used by our glorious DHS they are "Personal defense weapons." That's what they called them when they ordered 7,000 select-fire rifles.
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Old 02-08-2013, 9:29 PM
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"Assault rifle" is not an anti-gun term. It's a classification of firearm no more egregious than carbine. Assault weapon is, on the other hand, a term that not only makes no sense, but was brought upon us by the anti gun movement. Neither should apply to a semi-auto rifle.
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  #8  
Old 02-08-2013, 9:33 PM
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i'm using common terminology most people can identify with and what the state of california would call certain semi-auto rifles with certain characteristics. not trying to debate semantics.

The question on "assault weapons" or "assault rifles" was answered. Now curious about the Hi Cap Mags. Why are LEOs exempt from the 10 round mag law? I can understand for having hi cap mags for duty. But why personal use?
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rofocale View Post
i'm using common terminology most people can identify with and what the state of california would call certain semi-auto rifles with certain characteristics. not trying to debate semantics.

The question on "assault weapons" or "assault rifles" was answered. Now curious about the Hi Cap Mags. Why are LEOs exempt from the 10 round mag law? I can understand for having hi cap mags for duty. But why personal use?
Ok, I'll take on the large-capacity magazine question.

From the context of your question, it appears you are seeking a rational reason why LEOs may purchase large-capacity magazines for personal use while ordinary citizens cannot. If this is the case, please divorce yourself from that manner of thinking. That's not how it works.

Our laws are formed through the political process. They are proposed by an elected official who advocates the proposed law. The proposed law gets debated through both the State Senate and Assembly. The proposal is subject to changes in both places. Nearly every law has senators and assemblypersons who favor, and those who oppose, the proposal. Members of both bodies try to manipulate the support, or opposition, to the proposal as best suits them so they can get a majority vote to either pass or defeat the bill. (I won't even go into the various strategies to either park, or derail a bill). They can do this by bargaining their support for other bills (vote trading), or by altering the content of the bill to make it more or less palatable as suits their purpose (whether they want to pass the bill, or kill the bill). All of this happens in an environment heavily populated by lobbyists. Elected representatives play to lobbyists in order to get support (both political and campaign) when they need it, and they yield to lobbyists when they can so they get that support, on other bills, when they need it.

Law enforcement groups have powerful lobbies. Law enforcement tends to oppose legislation that is burdensome to its members. The easiest way to turn that opposition into support is to exempt LE from a bill's provisions.

That's why LEOs get to purchase large-capacity magazines. That's why Hollywood gets to own machine guns. That's why you and I have to pay money to get our cars out of impound when the banks and rental companies do not.

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  #10  
Old 02-09-2013, 8:46 AM
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Assault rifle. Legitimate classification for weapons with select fire capability firing an intermediate cartridge that is not a full power battle rifle cartridge such as the 7.62x51mm. Modern military AK and M16/M4 fits that definition.

Semi-automatic carbine. Any shoulder weapon that fires a round with every pull of the trigger. Some might have scary looking features such as pistol grips and black plastic furniture. Some might even look like their military counterparts, but without the select fire feature. No more deadly than any other firearm out there.

Assault weapon. Political made up term used to incite and scare people and defined however they want to define it. Mostly used to define the semi-automatic carbine that they don't like, even though it has nothing to do with a real assault rifle. If used in an assaultive manner, any weapon is an assault weapon, including a rock or a stick or a fist or a nuclear bomb. They can all be used in assaults.

LEO's are exempt from buying a scary looking gun with a detachable magazine if they are full time and receive written authorization from their chief. Then they have to register the weapon with DOJ when they buy it from an authorized dealer. This is the only exemption they have with respect to CA AW laws.

LEO's are exempt from restrictions on magazine capacity for any purpose, duty or not. That's just how life goes. The exemption only applies to magazines, in the buying, importing, manufacturing, etc.

However, if a LEO does not have an exempt AK, buying all the large capacity AK magazines doesn't matter because he still can't use the magazines in his bullet button locked AK as that is manufacturing an AW under CA laws. LEO's are not exempt from AW laws except as above.
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Old 02-09-2013, 8:00 PM
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Okay thanks for the answers.
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Old 02-09-2013, 8:19 PM
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The other thing to think about: Regular, full-time sworn police don't lose their police powers or sworn status at the end of their shift. If a police officer goes to a range on a day off to shoot, how can you prove in court that he was not training, but instead just shooting for recreation and fun? How would you enforce such a distinction?
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:12 PM
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To add on to what others have posted, any gun you use to improve your shooting skills could be considered a training gun.

Skills are skills, regardless of the gun.
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trendar5 View Post
The other thing to think about: Regular, full-time sworn police don't lose their police powers or sworn status at the end of their shift. If a police officer goes to a range on a day off to shoot, how can you prove in court that he was not training, but instead just shooting for recreation and fun? How would you enforce such a distinction?
not sure i understand what your trying to ask here.
if they go to the range on their day off to shoot? enforce what?
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:47 PM
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So what does SCAR stand for? For those who say the "AW" is fabricated by the media....
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Old 02-10-2013, 9:15 AM
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So what does SCAR stand for? For those who say the "AW" is fabricated by the media....
Marketing. The real SCAR has about as much to do with the civilian SCAR as your Chevrolet Camaro have to do with the NASCAR Camaro.
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Old 02-10-2013, 9:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
LEOs are exempt from 10+ magazine law, they can purchase "hi-cap magazines" any time they want. They are not exempt from Assault Weapon laws and can only purchase and register a Assault Weapon if authorized by their department.

Correct and not all Departments will give you an authorization to purchase. Also, if you leave employment DOJ requires the rifle be turned in once peace officer status is no longer in affect. Not sure if they allow conversion to legal rifle such as BB installed in lieu of. Probably depends on the on/off list.
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Old 02-10-2013, 9:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lavey29 View Post
Correct and not all Departments will give you an authorization to purchase. Also, if you leave employment DOJ requires the rifle be turned in once peace officer status is no longer in affect. Not sure if they allow conversion to legal rifle such as BB installed in lieu of. Probably depends on the on/off list.
Did DOJ put out a new memo requiring that upon separation of employment?

AFAIK, there is no mechanism for turning in your personally purchased AW nor was there anything written in the law about conversion to legal configuration.

The parting shot by Moonbeam Brown was just his opinion as AG and given his background, it's no surprise that he wrote that to pass onto Kamala to carry out his wishes to disarm the populace.

Until told otherwise, the departments I talked to are letting their officers keep their personally purchased AW's. Nobody wants to buy it back and there is no mandate to do so.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:46 PM
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I saw a cop beating a guy with a flashlight.....
I'm sure he sees a flashlight and quivers "***..as..ssau..llttt...weweweappponnn"
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Old 02-10-2013, 1:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
Did DOJ put out a new memo requiring that upon separation of employment?

AFAIK, there is no mechanism for turning in your personally purchased AW nor was there anything written in the law about conversion to legal configuration.

The parting shot by Moonbeam Brown was just his opinion as AG and given his background, it's no surprise that he wrote that to pass onto Kamala to carry out his wishes to disarm the populace.

Until told otherwise, the departments I talked to are letting their officers keep their personally purchased AW's. Nobody wants to buy it back and there is no mandate to do so.


Friend of mine from work told me that a buddy of his on a smaller Department got a letter to purchase a rifle and along with the DROS is a DOJ letter affidavit that you sign wherein you agree to surrender your rifle upon separation from the Department. I have not seen such letter personally but do believe it is part of the purchase/registration agreement. Now how DOJ is enforcing the surrender if you fail to honor the original agreement I do not know either. Larger Department are not issuing letters to purchase from my own personal knowledge.

I will try and go by one of my local shops that does government purchases with Department letters and see if I can get a copy of the DOJ letter to scan and post on here during the week.

Last edited by lavey29; 02-10-2013 at 1:14 PM..
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Old 02-10-2013, 5:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lavey29 View Post
Friend of mine from work told me that a buddy of his on a smaller Department got a letter to purchase a rifle and along with the DROS is a DOJ letter affidavit that you sign wherein you agree to surrender your rifle upon separation from the Department. I have not seen such letter personally but do believe it is part of the purchase/registration agreement. Now how DOJ is enforcing the surrender if you fail to honor the original agreement I do not know either. Larger Department are not issuing letters to purchase from my own personal knowledge.

I will try and go by one of my local shops that does government purchases with Department letters and see if I can get a copy of the DOJ letter to scan and post on here during the week.
None of my buddies who have previously purchased rifles under the program had such a letter in their DROS from the DOJ.

Just call Pro Force tomorrow to see if they know since they are one of the biggest dealers for LE AW.
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Old 02-10-2013, 6:00 PM
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The shop I use does quite a bit of sales vie department letter. I will try and get by them by mid week to see if they have a copy of the DOJ letter that I was referred to.
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Old 02-11-2013, 4:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post

However, if a LEO does not have an exempt AK, buying all the large capacity AK magazines doesn't matter because he still can't use the magazines in his bullet button locked AK as that is manufacturing an AW under CA laws. LEO's are not exempt from AW laws except as above.
"Featureless".
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Old 02-11-2013, 5:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveSeven View Post
"Featureless".
Quote:
However, if a LEO does not have an exempt AK, buying all the large capacity AK magazines doesn't matter because he still can't use the magazines in his bullet button locked AK as that is manufacturing an AW under CA laws. LEO's are not exempt from AW laws except as above.
Thank you. One point at a time as I dissect what was said.

- "an exempt AK" denoting either registered or featureless

- "bullet button locked AK" denotes that it is not registerd or featureless

- "AW laws" state featureless is okay to use large capacity magazines

Therefore, what I had said covered your statement, but yeah, to make it even more obvious, thanks for pointing it out.
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Old 02-11-2013, 7:34 PM
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The whole (my) point was/is, why would any leo have a need/want for "high" capacity AK mags?

Also, there are numerous small LE agencies that have less or different restrictions/requirements/view on what officer can use/own as a patrol rifle.
AK 74 (or even AKM) with decent optic is even better suited for the task imho than M4/AR.

Last edited by FiveSeven; 02-11-2013 at 8:04 PM..
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Old 02-11-2013, 8:47 PM
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Quote:
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The whole (my) point was/is, why would any leo have a need/want for "high" capacity AK mags?
Same reason why any civilian would want an AK of any capacity.
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Old 02-11-2013, 8:52 PM
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Warhawk,
I think what he is trying to say is: How would you make the distinction that a LEO using high capacity magazines to train off-duty (for his on-duty assignments/skills) is any different than him/her using the same magazines while training on duty?

FiveSeven,
While I do want an AK74, I'm perfectly happy with my Colt AR for work. I don't see any advantage to be gained by changing weapon systems.
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Old 02-11-2013, 9:16 PM
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Advantages is Murphy's law in-itself. Something more simpler (with MUCH fewer parts), easier maintenance platform and just as easy to adapt to a specific user is better IMHO + it's just as accurate for intended distance.... Ultimately it's "whatever floats your boat" and as I stated, it's my opinion.

Quote:
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Same reason why any civilian would want an AK of any capacity.
You won't find any disagreement from me on that... But, I'm going by what current law permits even thou I think it's pure garbage of a law.

Last edited by FiveSeven; 02-11-2013 at 9:18 PM..
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Old 02-11-2013, 9:17 PM
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LEOSA.
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Old 02-11-2013, 9:22 PM
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LEOSA.
Do you have first hand experience? As I've seen some officers were prosecuted for possessing unregistered AR's. LEOSA didn't help them much.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:38 AM
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where have you seen LEOs prosecuted for possessing an unregistered "assault weapon?" I'm not challenging you, I have just never seen or heard of it in CA.

To each their own, I'm not going dispute that an ak-type weapon would work but I'm content with my at Colt for now. I would rather my department by New vehicles over changing my rifle setup.
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Old 02-12-2013, 5:48 AM
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Do you have first hand experience? As I've seen some officers were prosecuted for possessing unregistered AR's. LEOSA didn't help them much.
Only case I know of is Drew Petersen and LEOSA got him off with his personal SBR. Wouldn't try it here in CA though.
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Old 02-12-2013, 6:59 AM
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Quote:
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where have you seen LEOs prosecuted for possessing an unregistered "assault weapon?" I'm not challenging you, I have just never seen or heard of it in CA.

To each their own, I'm not going dispute that an ak-type weapon would work but I'm content with my at Colt for now. I would rather my department by New vehicles over changing my rifle setup.
This is one from my city of Redding CA. It doesn't specify what the AW were, but I would imagine that since they searched his house, he probably had high cap mags in the weapons in his gun safe. Probably thought there would never be a time when someone else would see them in his safe. As we all know, as soon as you insert a high capacity magazine into an otherwise authorized AK/AR rifle, you have made it into an illegal AW as far as the law is concerned. I don't know what handgun they are talking about, since the same law doesn't apply to handguns, and as LEO he can buy off roster handguns. Here is the link:
http://www.redding.com/news/2012/mar...weapons-warra/
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Old 02-12-2013, 8:00 AM
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Chu Vue is another ( before murder charges).
There are a few more, one was Correctional officer in Fresno county, I believe the case was on this site a few years ago (State lost in the jury trial).

Last edited by FiveSeven; 02-12-2013 at 8:03 AM..
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Old 02-12-2013, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaweed02 View Post
This is one from my city of Redding CA. It doesn't specify what the AW were, but I would imagine that since they searched his house, he probably had high cap mags in the weapons in his gun safe. Probably thought there would never be a time when someone else would see them in his safe. As we all know, as soon as you insert a high capacity magazine into an otherwise authorized AK/AR rifle, you have made it into an illegal AW as far as the law is concerned. I don't know what handgun they are talking about, since the same law doesn't apply to handguns, and as LEO he can buy off roster handguns. Here is the link:
http://www.redding.com/news/2012/mar...weapons-warra/
Quote:
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Chu Vue is another ( before murder charges).
There are a few more, one was Correctional officer in Fresno county, I believe the case was on this site a few years ago (State lost in the jury trial).
Chu was dismissed, and is a bad example for reference just because of the murder.

I believe Harris (Shasta) was charged and is still pending Court. If anyone has further info I'd like to know.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:43 AM
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One of coco so deputies arrested in that dirty dui scandal was charged with possession of an aw I believe. But again, the aw charge was peripheral(sp?) to the whole investigation. Seems to be the recurring theme.
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Old 02-12-2013, 7:26 PM
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Interesting... I'll have to see if I can dig anything up on those.
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Old 02-13-2013, 7:34 AM
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Default You are absolutely right

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Originally Posted by RedVines View Post
One of coco so deputies arrested in that dirty dui scandal was charged with possession of an aw I believe. But again, the aw charge was peripheral(sp?) to the whole investigation. Seems to be the recurring theme.
You are right about it being peripheral in the Harris case here in Shasta County. They obtained a search warrant to search his house because of child pornography accusations. During the search they found the so called assault weapons and added those charges. And like I said they probably found high capacity magazines inserted into the AR/AK rifles in his gun safe, and charged him accordingly because as soon as you insert a high capacity magazine into your legally purchased AR/AK rifle, it is now an illegal assault weapon according to the law.

I buy high cap magazines for all of my weapons just because I can. I use them in my handguns because it is legal to do so. But I don't even keep the high cap magazines for my AR and AK rifles in the gun safe with my weapons. That way they can't even be inserted by mistake, not even in the privacy of my own home. I have them packaged and boxed on a shelf in my garage.
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  #39  
Old 02-17-2013, 12:34 AM
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Rofocale Rofocale is offline
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so seaweed your saying. if you have hi cap mags that can fit a rifle that accept detachable mags in the same house. that constitutes an assault weapon? or is it only ar/ak weapons? and would that bullet buttons would be irrelevant?

trying to get a better understanding because from the sounds of it. sound likes the manufacture with intent ideaology set off by ATF standards.

like having an ar-15 and m-16 f/a parts could be seen as intent to manufacture a machine gun.
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Old 02-17-2013, 9:07 AM
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There is no constructive possession with CA's AWB and you can have them sitting next to each other all day and night, unless you own those particular AW's and large capacity magazines which are possessed and will mate on their own without any human input, in which case, you are screwed.
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