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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

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  #1  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:05 PM
fatsteve fatsteve is offline
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Default Is throwing a person considerd deadly force?

I have been considering this for a while and finaly decided to ask wheather or not throwing a person is considerd deadly or non deadly force.

If my understanding of the legal definition of deadly force is correct, its any force that can be expected to resullt in serious bodily injury or death. (I.E. shooting someone, stabbing, anything more likely then not to cause a serious injury or death) and non deadly force is something that can, but is not likely to produce serious injury of death (I.E. Unarmed strikes, Chemical sprays, and tasers)

So my questions are

1. Are my definitions correct on what the diffent levels of force are here. (I know i skiped verbal, but that ones self explanitory)

2. Is a Grappling thorw considerd deadly force? And for that matter, are chokes?

Im curious because even though they are not likey to kill even 30% of the time, they are more likey to cause damage, and depending on what the person lands on, much more.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:08 PM
keenkeen keenkeen is offline
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Naw....




You are good.

Great question however.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:16 PM
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Above picture not withstanding, depends on the circumstances. I know, that's probably not the answer you are looking for, but that's what it comes down to.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:24 PM
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I don't think it's "deadly force" you would be concerned about in a scenario where you (not you, but "you") threw someone. It does depend on the circumstances and the nature of the throw but you could be charged with 245(a)(4) PC under a "force likely" to inflict great bodily injury. It's a wobbler but if it's bad enough, it could mean up to 4 years in the state prison. (It is not 1170(h) eligible.)

Even 245(a)(1) doesn't refer to "deadly force". Instead, that section turns on whether a "deadly weapon or instrument other than a firearm" was used.

Hope this answered your question. Don't be throwing anyone, especially the extremely vertically challenged.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:02 PM
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Thanks heiko for that part of the penal code, i was not aware of that section of the penal code.

Im guessing like all force itll come down to why i threw the person, and what they landed on. Osto Gari onto a soft lawn, probably no big deal if he can still walk after words, German Suplex into used surgical equipment, differnt story.

But the consences, and hillarious pic, is that its classified, generally ofcourse, as non deadly
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Old 02-11-2013, 2:57 AM
CBR_rider CBR_rider is offline
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In general, yes, your "force continuum" is correct. Chokes are probably gonna be viewed as deadly force (or just below it), and throws could be. All use of force options have to be viewed in the context of the exact situation though. A tazing delivered on a catwalk 30 stories up is gonna be viewed differently than one on flat ground in my non lawyerly opinion.
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Old 02-11-2013, 3:08 AM
Oliver_Charles Oliver_Charles is offline
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***

Last edited by Oliver_Charles; 01-11-2014 at 12:35 PM..
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Old 02-11-2013, 6:42 AM
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Depending on what happened to the person thrown, yes. It could be charged as ADW (assault w/ deadly weapon) - GBI (great bodily injury) with bodily force being the "weapon".
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Old 02-11-2013, 7:00 AM
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Thankfully, things are (At least for now) viewed on a case by case basis. Me being 6ft 215 lbs., If I swing and throw a two year old, yes that could be considered DF. However, if I did the same to a man my size, it's unlikely.

Good question. Now if you were to ask it in the OT section, you would likely get a response about how cops think they are above the law and how they throw babies from rooftops without consequence all the time.
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Old 02-11-2013, 8:45 AM
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The law is not on your side if you have martial arts training, don't stick around if you use any martial arts techniques. Seen too many scenarios where the judge says well you injured the guy if you have so much training you should have been able to diffuse the situation without doing bodily harm.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:10 PM
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Well i asked the question becuase i was in Law Enforcement ROP and have a guard card, but work in retail. So i Just wanted to ask the question becuase its a big grey area.

And ofcourse, each case of where force is used, its unique. Where the disparity of force is non existent, its one thing, if the person is much bigger, stronger, or smaller, its totally differrent.

Would it be appropriate to write up a couple of scenarios and post them on this thread to see what the comunity would see as justified?
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Old 02-11-2013, 4:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsteve View Post
Well i asked the question becuase i was in Law Enforcement ROP and have a guard card, but work in retail. So i Just wanted to ask the question becuase its a big grey area.

And ofcourse, each case of where force is used, its unique. Where the disparity of force is non existent, its one thing, if the person is much bigger, stronger, or smaller, its totally differrent.

Would it be appropriate to write up a couple of scenarios and post them on this thread to see what the comunity would see as justified?
I think you're bringing up some possible self defense issues too and that is another big gray area. As I posted before, if you are concerned about criminal legal consequences, it will depend on the circumstances but I wanted to get you away from the "deadly force" notion because it doesn't have to be deadly force to wind up with a serious felony.

Self-defense brings up a question of the validity of your self-defense claim as well as the potential for your use of force being considered excessive given the aggression you are defending yourself with.

If you happen to be a LPO or AP for your retail employer then I would also want to know what my company policy is and what they would cover me for in the inevitable civil lawsuit should your apprehension go south but that is yet another ball of wax!
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Old 02-11-2013, 8:30 PM
fatsteve fatsteve is offline
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No, im just a clerk, i just wanted to get some clarification on what my chances are on going to jail for throwing someone in a fight or durring a citizens arrest. I was more just trying to make sure that im not using a technique that is written down somewhere as "always exesive force no matter what"

I do ofcourse understand that all accounts of you using force will end up with you explaining yourself. And i do understand that its up to the court to determine whether or not it was acceptable. But from what i gather, if im in a fight with someone, whos clearly in the wrong, whos attacking me, who poses a big enough threat that i cant just shrug it off and walk away, that if i threw the the person, in general, it shouldn't be considerd excesive force, and if i juged them to be a great enough threat, with good reason, i shouldnt be too worried about the consequence if i was legitmately doing that to stop the fight to defend myself from greater injury.

Would i be justified in throwing someone, or putting someone in a choke, who was unjustly attacking someone else?
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Old 02-11-2013, 8:43 PM
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ya you are allowed to defend a person who is incapable of defending themselves ( old person, child ) but same rules about not using excessive force apply. I wish i knew the name of the law off the top of my head, but ya it's the same law that allows bodyguards to defend people.
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Old 02-11-2013, 9:03 PM
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if you use the thrown person as a weapon than it probably would be deadly force

but throwing someone could be construed as self defense as you are trying to distance yourself
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Old 02-11-2013, 9:14 PM
mofojoe mofojoe is offline
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Easier said than done.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:13 PM
keenkeen keenkeen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsteve View Post
Would it be appropriate to write up a couple of scenarios and post them on this thread to see what the comunity would see as justified?
Please..for the love of God...please do this!

Pure...Comedy...Gold.

Bless you friend, bless you.

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Old 02-11-2013, 11:27 PM
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Well, if you are in a fight, and not clear about how much force to use- talk to a lawyer.
If you must finish your fight first, do so quickly, and then talk to a lawyer.
If you are fighting a lawyer, use deadly force.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:45 AM
CBR_rider CBR_rider is offline
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I recommend the off topic forum, seems to have the most law and use of force experts....

Seriously though, you can post scenarios but even in one scenario there can be multiple right answers. Talk to your supervisor and find out store policy, talk to an attorney if necessary to understand criminal/civil law, and then figure out what civil/criminal risks you are willing to shoulder. While I hate thieves, property theft isn't worth going out on a limb to defend only to have your company say you were outside policy and no longer employed.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:20 PM
fatsteve fatsteve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenkeen View Post
Please..for the love of God...please do this!

Pure...Comedy...Gold.

Bless you friend, bless you.


You know, i think i might go to off topic and just write some, may be laugh worthy, anyone else be interested in reading some "what if this happend?" scenarios. I can write some good ones
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Old 02-12-2013, 6:16 PM
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ya you are allowed to defend a person who is incapable of defending themselves ( old person, child )

This is close, but not completely true my friend. You can use deadly force in the defense of yourself or others, not just people who are incapable, ANYONE who you believe will suffer death or gbi. Its called imperfect self defense and used quite often as a defense in invest/trials I do. Case by case and must be justified. Also, you Can Not create your own self-defense.
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Old 02-12-2013, 6:23 PM
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^ true i was just trying to give a good example of someone who might need self-defense , was not my intention to limit it to just those groups i mentioned.
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Old 02-12-2013, 6:33 PM
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copy, wasnt saying it with any disrespect my friend.
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Old 02-12-2013, 6:34 PM
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i never took it as disrespect
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