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CGSSA Shoots, Meets and Range Stories Set up and organize shoots and meets and share your shooting range stories.

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  #81  
Old 01-26-2013, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 67goat View Post
A business can charge you anything they want. They can charge in cash, they can charge in chickens. I've been to lots of ranges that don't allow collecting brass. Every one of them had that listed in the rules that I had to sign off on before I could even shoot. That makes a contract, not illegal conversion of property. Even if it is not on that list, as long as you sign off on obeying posted rules and that rule is posted, there is nothing illegal about it.
Does your range make you sign a contract before you shoot? Because if they don't, then it is conversion of property on top of being a really douche bag move.
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eh why bring logic into this, that makes too much sense... besides when you have bested a fool, you have accomplished nothing and he is a fool.
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  #82  
Old 01-27-2013, 9:50 PM
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An indoor range I go to has a no pickup rule, but I put my bag on the floor to my right and leave it open. A surprising amount of my brass accidentally lands right in it.
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  #83  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:03 AM
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Last edited by iron cannon; 06-23-2013 at 10:54 PM..
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  #84  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:59 AM
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My indoor range has a rule about brass.. Pick it up.

Either keep it or place it in the brass can on the range.

Unfortunately it is a club range, so everyone reloads or has someone that reloads.. no public free brass to be had.
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  #85  
Old 01-31-2013, 1:05 PM
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Originally Posted by scobun View Post
Does your range make you sign a contract before you shoot? Because if they don't, then it is conversion of property on top of being a really douche bag move.
Every range I have ever been to that wasn't BLM land makes you sign a contract. Any range that doesn't is asking for trouble in the long run. If you look closely at the sheet you sign before they let you onto the lanes, it's not just a list of names. At the top it will say something to the effect that you agree to abide by the rules or that you stipulate to the conditions on the page before (which will have a no fault clause on it to protect them if you shoot yourself). Obviously, I have not been to every range, but of the twenty or so I have been to, every one has asked for a signature. That signature (and the text above it) constitutes a contract. Not all contracts are huge documents that require a notary. Heck, the check box you click to agree to terms of service when you install software is a contract.
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  #86  
Old 01-31-2013, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by hellayella View Post
just mark your own brass and problem solved..stop your whining
when the sign says "ANY" underlined they mean any. no where in the range does it say marked brass may be retrieved
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  #87  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:52 PM
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I have two qualifications a range must have they are going to earn my business.

1. I get to keep my spent brass.
Like others, I paid for my brass either by purchasing new ammo or as a case that I bought for reloading. I am going to keep the brass I shoot, thank-you-very-much.

2. I will practice drawing from concealed.
I spend a lot of trigger time putting rounds in the black from the ready position. I will practice draw from concealed, clearing jams, and magazine changes as part of my routine, too.

I can live with any other rules. Tell me I can't do either of the above, and not only will I never come back, I will tell everybody else I know to avoid you as well. A big part of why I shoot is to remain proficient in the physical skills to defend myself.

Again, tell me I can't or force me to pay more, then all I can say is best of luck to you.

Last edited by diveRN; 02-01-2013 at 12:59 AM..
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  #88  
Old 01-31-2013, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67goat View Post
A business can charge you anything they want. They can charge in cash, they can charge in chickens. I've been to lots of ranges that don't allow collecting brass. Every one of them had that listed in the rules that I had to sign off on before I could even shoot. That makes a contract, not illegal conversion of property. Even if it is not on that list, as long as you sign off on obeying posted rules and that rule is posted, there is nothing illegal about it.
Not true. You shouldn't make statements this ignorant of the law. It is annoying

Every range I have been to you have to sign in. Most it is just a spreadsheet with room for many names, and a very simple liability/rules paragraph on top. But Angeles makes you sign a contract and initial all over the place.

But still, there are limits to what can be in such a contract, and also limits to what a catch-all "obey RSO/ rules" clauses

I am not saying they cannot have a brass rule, though such is ethically wrong. Requiring you to regularly clean up your area? Fine. Angeles does that, but I have never got flak for picking up my brass as part of that. Frankly, as long as someone isn't sweeping up a bunch of brass that obviously isn't just their and taking it, I have not seen any issue anywhere
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  #89  
Old 02-01-2013, 8:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JoshuaS View Post
Not true. You shouldn't make statements this ignorant of the law. It is annoying

Every range I have been to you have to sign in. Most it is just a spreadsheet with room for many names, and a very simple liability/rules paragraph on top. But Angeles makes you sign a contract and initial all over the place.

But still, there are limits to what can be in such a contract, and also limits to what a catch-all "obey RSO/ rules" clauses

I am not saying they cannot have a brass rule, though such is ethically wrong. Requiring you to regularly clean up your area? Fine. Angeles does that, but I have never got flak for picking up my brass as part of that. Frankly, as long as someone isn't sweeping up a bunch of brass that obviously isn't just their and taking it, I have not seen any issue anywhere
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  #90  
Old 02-01-2013, 1:13 PM
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2. I will practice drawing from concealed.
I spend a lot of trigger time putting rounds in the black from the ready position. I will practice draw from concealed, clearing jams, and magazine changes as part of my routine, too.


Wow, Which range allows one to draw from concealed?
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  #91  
Old 02-01-2013, 5:12 PM
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Question rephrased.

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Originally Posted by The King View Post
Wow, Which range[s don't] allow one to draw from concealed?
Every range I've been to around here allows it if you have a valid CCW permit. Sometimes they want you to "interview" with their Range Master / Safety Officer to demonstrate that you're not going to blow your foot off ... or someone else's.

I know of two ranges that are putting together formal plans to have separate ranges, or sections of their existing range, that will be set aside for CCW permit holders. They're going to charge a modest "premium" fee to use those stalls, but it will give permit holders preference.

It not only gives the range an opportunity to make a little more dough and shows support for CCW, it provides a margin of safety in that it gets people who want to practice drawing from concealed away from everyone else in case there's an issue. If it gets me on a shorter waiting list at ranges I frequent, I'll pay a few extra bucks... but not much more.

I primarily shoot up in the mountains so paying extra when I don't have to is foolish.
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  #92  
Old 02-01-2013, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JoshuaS View Post
Not true. You shouldn't make statements this ignorant of the law. It is annoying

Every range I have been to you have to sign in. Most it is just a spreadsheet with room for many names, and a very simple liability/rules paragraph on top. But Angeles makes you sign a contract and initial all over the place.

But still, there are limits to what can be in such a contract, and also limits to what a catch-all "obey RSO/ rules" clauses

I am not saying they cannot have a brass rule, though such is ethically wrong. Requiring you to regularly clean up your area? Fine. Angeles does that, but I have never got flak for picking up my brass as part of that. Frankly, as long as someone isn't sweeping up a bunch of brass that obviously isn't just their and taking it, I have not seen any issue anywhere
I'm sorry that you don't understand what the law considers to be a contract, but that spreadsheet you sign with a liability paragraph at the top is a contract. Yes, contracts are limited in scope so that that you cannot sign away guaranteed rights, but not picking up brass does not meet that criteria, neither does an obey all posted rules clause (assuming the posted rules do not require you to do something illegal, again leaving your brass does not meet that criteria). If you think that terms of service are not contracts, look up George Hotz. Sony sued him for breach of contract for violating terms of service. While they settled out of court, the case was not thrown out (showing the courts do look at it as a contract).

As for it being unethical, it may not be smart business as a range will lose customers with such a rule, but it is far from unethical. It is merely an additional cost they can charge. Whether they charge you your brass or charge everybody an extra couple dollars it is just a price. Whether you choose to pay that price is up to you, but it is not extortion nor a ransom.
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  #93  
Old 02-07-2013, 6:58 AM
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Angeles will allow you to pick up your own brass, but don't even think about asking anyone else for their brass, even if they were about to dump it. Got caught by the brass police who said it was against the rules to take anyone else's brass, even with their consent.
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  #94  
Old 02-07-2013, 7:06 AM
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I wonder what the ranges that have a rule against retrieving brass would say about setting up one of these...?

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  #95  
Old 02-07-2013, 7:26 AM
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Pretty popular thread! Over at american shooting center in San Diego, they let you pick up your own brass. It's an indoor range, and there is always a mess of brass on the floor so they don't seem like they're losing any money from reloaders.

Over at EFGA, they require you to clean up the mess you made. They don't sell ammo or re-sell brass, so they just require you to be clean. Fine by me!
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  #96  
Old 02-07-2013, 8:19 PM
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Yup. So many views and almost 100 replies. Hope that policy was worth it
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  #97  
Old 02-07-2013, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67goat View Post
I'm sorry that you don't understand what the law considers to be a contract, but that spreadsheet you sign with a liability paragraph at the top is a contract. Yes, contracts are limited in scope so that that you cannot sign away guaranteed rights, but not picking up brass does not meet that criteria, neither does an obey all posted rules clause (assuming the posted rules do not require you to do something illegal, again leaving your brass does not meet that criteria). If you think that terms of service are not contracts, look up George Hotz. Sony sued him for breach of contract for violating terms of service. While they settled out of court, the case was not thrown out (showing the courts do look at it as a contract).

As for it being unethical, it may not be smart business as a range will lose customers with such a rule, but it is far from unethical. It is merely an additional cost they can charge. Whether they charge you your brass or charge everybody an extra couple dollars it is just a price. Whether you choose to pay that price is up to you, but it is not extortion nor a ransom.
Where did you go to law school? It isn't extortion or ransom, it is conversion of property, which is not allowed.
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eh why bring logic into this, that makes too much sense... besides when you have bested a fool, you have accomplished nothing and he is a fool.
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  #98  
Old 02-07-2013, 10:15 PM
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WTF does this mean? You sell someone reloads and you think the brass still belongs to you?

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we have our high dollar value reload ammo brass keep disappearing (357Mag, .44SPL/Mag, 45LC).
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=680591&page=2

Owner's response, see last post. Thread locked already.

I work there, many of you have know me, or have taken the Rifle Safety Qualification course with me. From my perspective, it's another one of those case that other people screw it up for all of you, very much similar to what our "No Shotgun" policy came into place. We have seen people stealing brass when they pick up brass 3 lanes from each side of their own lane, or use push rod to pull brass back to pick up what's already down range; we have our high dollar value reload ammo brass keep disappearing (357Mag, .44SPL/Mag, 45LC). We simply do not have the manpower to watch over everyone who claims to be "picking up my own brass only". Please note we do not charge sales tax on range reload because those ammo were intended to be used in our range only, and we keep the brass. Our reload ammo supplier depends on us to return the brass to them, and will raise the price if we can't return the right amount of brass back. With all of above, we are now strictly enforcing what has being our brass policy.

As for those who claim safety issues is BS, while you are on the ground moving around to pick up those brass, people who walk by may trip over you, especially when we get crowded. Losing dollar over a nickel may be if you don't count the thousands of dollar we could save on the lawyer fee.

For those of you who claim will not be back, I hope you find a better range that would accommodate your need. For those of you who continue to utilize our facility, we appreciate your business. However, please remember we have a business to run and we have set rules for this business that will be follow strictly. Please review our range rules and ask any questions you might have, this way we don't have to breath down your neck all the time.
I stopped shooting with you guys long ago after getting sick of dealing with morons shooting Big 5 Moisins in the next lane, while trying to get serious practice in.
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  #99  
Old 02-08-2013, 6:58 AM
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Originally Posted by gaddygat View Post
Angeles will allow you to pick up your own brass, but don't even think about asking anyone else for their brass, even if they were about to dump it. Got caught by the brass police who said it was against the rules to take anyone else's brass, even with their consent.
While I don't like to shoot at public ranges that often, ASR is one of the better ones. I've had other shooters take the brass that I've shot with RO watching, without any issues.
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  #100  
Old 03-05-2013, 10:33 AM
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Reading this 'thread' has been interesting.

I'm one of the local Rifle Club volunteers who operate the old San Jose indoor range. We've never gotten around to actually structuring any sort of formal policy regarding brass, except to ask range users to pick up or sweep up their brass.

It often happens that one range user isn't saving their brass, and another will ask that one if they might have those cases. My position has always been that the fired cases belong to the one who brought the rounds to the range, who may give the cases to another at his/her option.

Actually, I personally think it a shame that so much good reloadable brass is thrown into the scrap bucket, and, even tho we do salvage some $ toward range operating costs by selling unwanted brass to a scrap dealer, I encourage range users to save 'reasonable amounts' of reloadable brass for themselves, rather than see it go to scrap.

(when I say 'reasonable', I'm meaning something like 'take a 'box or two worth', or so, if you mean to load it......you mayn't take large amounts to sell for scrap yourself')

cheers

Carla

Last edited by Asphodel; 03-05-2013 at 10:34 AM.. Reason: corrected typos
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  #101  
Old 03-30-2013, 12:01 AM
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When I was shooting at OakTree they came behind me and tried to sweep up my Brass real quick while I was shooting. Sneaky guys
A couple of trips ago to OakTree, the fellow next to me told the sweeper he was going to police his own brass and the guy said, "No problem." I haven't asked them what their official policy is though.
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  #102  
Old 03-31-2013, 9:04 AM
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What I love about Field Time in Stanton is every time I bring my rifles to shoot, one of the range officers will notice me picking up my brass and will actually give me a hand. While I'm shooting they'll either pick up the brass as it collects on the floor for me or they'll sweep it towards me for me to pick up which saves me some time from having to search for it on the floor. Very nice range officers there.
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  #103  
Old 03-31-2013, 10:40 AM
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If I'm going to a range that keeps my brass, I will only shoot .22LR there.
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  #104  
Old 03-31-2013, 11:21 AM
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I always pick up my brass, and if the people around me don't want it, I'll pick up theirs too. I've had RO either sweep it in my direction (after asking if I can keep my own brass) or not care.

If any place I went to told me not to, I would find a different place to shoot. Pretty simple.
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  #105  
Old 03-31-2013, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AlaskaGuy View Post
A couple of trips ago to OakTree, the fellow next to me told the sweeper he was going to police his own brass and the guy said, "No problem." I haven't asked them what their official policy is though.
Their official policy is "Sec.1, 1a. Never argue with a man with a gun".
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  #106  
Old 03-31-2013, 2:22 PM
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I wouldn't shoot at a range that won't allow me to have my own brass back. Its not theirs!

Sent from a galaxy near you.
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  #107  
Old 03-31-2013, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AlaskaGuy View Post
A couple of trips ago to OakTree, the fellow next to me told the sweeper he was going to police his own brass and the guy said, "No problem." I haven't asked them what their official policy is though.
We always shoot at Oaktree and enjoy their outdoor bays and benches. The Range Masters have never once hassled me for picking up my own brass. I have an approximate idea of how many rounds I bring out and count how many I pick up. It's never exact, sometimes a 40 gets mixed in with a 9mm and a 45ACP or two, no big deal. Just pick up your own and everyone is cool about it. On rare occasions the folks shooting next to me will give me their brass and it's no big deal. Oak Tree has a pleasant culture. There's a restaurant, skeet, trap, rifle, indoor and out door pistol and a pro and reloading shop.

The notion that if it falls on the ground "it's ours" is ridiculous in my mind, and only creates ill will in the sport and industry. For those of us who reload, that's the hobby part of shooting - it's fun to do, even when you're not always saving money doing it. When it becomes stressful, the fun is gone and it's time to move on to open space shooting, like BLM or the Mojave. I'll just make a day of it, set up shop, bring lunch and drinks and relax - I'll pick up my brass too.

Heck, as reloaders, we buy all kinds of equipment (some from the Oaktree Reloading Store!), i.e. tumblers, polish, media, etc. and tools to make the fired brass look pretty. Some may think we are crazy or wasting our time. Many of us take pride in our reloads. I'm not going to let a range with the no pick-up policy spoil my hobby, I'll just go elsewhere.

Dog
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  #108  
Old 03-31-2013, 3:44 PM
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USI in concord let you take your brass.... And so far all the shooters have been cool.... Everyone asks if I save.
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