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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Wild Squid View Post
What happened? Nothing. We're still not getting CCW.
So let's turn this around. What events would convince you we are making progress? At the extreme, complete liberation of firearms -- repeal the 1934, 1968, 1986, etc firearm acts -- absolutely no laws singling out firearms for anything. I presume that would do it, but we all know that's not going to happen. So what short of that would it take to convince you that we are making progress?
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  #82  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:29 AM
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There is no sense of movement in the photo, and that's certainly a part of the game in skeet. Also, speaking as an NRA certified instructor, take a lesson from Zero’s technique (actually, his lack thereof). Raise the elbow on your strong arm (right arm if right handed), don’t keep it down like Zero, and hold your weak hand in such a manner as to point down the barrel with your index finger (so you literally point at the target clay with your finger). You can’t see his feet in the photo so let’s just say I suspect he’s got problems there too.
Agreed. The weight distribution should be biased towards his forward (right) foot. I suspect that POTUS may not be technically shooting in a skeet field, but rather doing some informal shooting at clay targets launched away from him. Haven't been invited to Camp David in a while, so don't know if there is a regulation skeet field on the premises

The gratuitous critique of his shooting technique notwithstanding, this photo of POTUS is a win for 2A.
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  #83  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:30 AM
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When the Whitehouse has to release a photo of the pResident shooting. They can read the polls. We're not done by a long shot, but this has got to make the Brady Bunch cringe folks.
Yep, they can't claim any longer that touching a gun gives you cooties.
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  #84  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by skeet25 View Post
Agreed. The weight distribution should be biased towards his forward (right) foot. I suspect that POTUS may not be technically shooting in a skeet field, but rather doing some informal shooting at clay targets launched away from him. Haven't been invited to Camp David in a while, so don't know if there is a regulation skeet field on the premises

The gratuitous critique of his shooting technique notwithstanding, this photo of POTUS is a win for 2A.
if he was shooting an AR it would have more impact... POTUS has never expressed a concern about shotguns.

IMHO, they want people to feel that he is pro 2A... this photo was calculated.
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  #85  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:46 AM
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Don't know about the rest of you , but I feel that we need to keep the pressure on. We need to keep sending emails, letters, faxes, phone calls to our state and federal Government. Its not over till the fat lady sings and I have not heard it. The gun grabbers want us to feel a false sense of security, but we cannot give in. We need to stay political. We can do this calm orderly fashion, but we still need to keep the pressure on.
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  #86  
Old 02-02-2013, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow Repair View Post
So let's turn this around. What events would convince you we are making progress? ...
And in that regard, five years ago the courts were saying that the Second Amendment described a collective right and that it didn't apply to the States. Then Heller (2008) and McDonald (2010) changed that.
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  #87  
Old 02-02-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by HondaMasterTech View Post
Thanks to Gene and every American who stands up and fights in the name of all the great ideas this country was founded on.

On a semi-related note, I have heard a lot about how much Obama has simulated the economy by driving gun and ammo sales through the roof. While the irony is amusing I can't help though, to consider how many people brought more debt into their lives by buying guns they couldn't afford and how much they stand to lose should they try to sell those guns, once the legislative efforts to ban are officially dead and prices come down. It reminds me of the housing crisis in that way.

I am continually amazed, and am becoming more so all the time, at the ability of this country to absorb massive amounts of hardware. Either we are gaining more support from the liberal community and a new generation of young people, or there are one hell of a lot more three percenters out there than most of us think there are. Either way, it is all good.

Don’t worry about the ‘bubble’ effect. Over the years I have bought a thing or two during one of the periodic panics and there is not one that I could not have sold at a profit six months ago let alone today.
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  #88  
Old 02-02-2013, 12:46 PM
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this, my friends, is what we call Leadership.
Thank you Gene, for everything.
That about sums it up in one word. Thanks for the wise and steady leadership Gene. Meager donation incoming.
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  #89  
Old 02-02-2013, 1:31 PM
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Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Hey junior: if he wanted to drum up money, wouldn't he *overrstate* the direness of the situation, rather that downplay it?
Logic is wasted on irrational people.
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  #90  
Old 02-02-2013, 3:33 PM
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First, thank you, Gene. A little perspective always helps, even if the fight isn't over.

Second, about the President "shooting" skeet digression... what has been more worrying to me than the photo drumming up his version of 'support' for the 2A... a quote from the "New Republic" article that very closely approximates something he said a few days after signing the EOs. Cut and pasted from this article.

White House photo shows Obama skeet shooting
February 02, 2013 6:36 PM EST
WASHINGTON (AP) — Two days before President Barack Obama's first trip outside Washington to promote his gun-control proposals, the White House tried Saturday to settle a brewing mystery by releasing a photo to back his claim to be a skeet shooter.

"I have a profound respect for the traditions of hunting that trace back in this country for generations. And I think those who dismiss that out of hand make a big mistake," Obama said. "Part of being able to move this forward is understanding the reality of guns in urban areas are very different from the realities of guns in rural areas. And if you grew up and your dad gave you a hunting rifle when you were 10, and you went out and spent the day with him and your uncles, and that became part of your family's traditions, you can see why you'd be pretty protective of that."

This repeated hammering home of the idea the tradition of hunting and hunting gun ownership is somehow a reasonable (middle American outreach) but we who are city dwellers are somehow distinctly different and therefore our gun ownership expectations should be different because we live in cities 'where all this gun violence takes place'.

Since I doubt he is suggesting that the residents of Chicago, Philadelphia, DC and L.A. should all own ARs and normal capacity magazines to PROTECT ourselves from all those criminals who commit all this 'difference', I fear the results if he can assuage the 'rural Republican' fears and consolidate the major urban areas behind the notion that an AWB or other nonsense will save the lives of the average kid on the streets of urban America.

Someone please tell me I'm being 'paranoid' so I can go back to enjoying the sense of relaxation I had reading (most) of the first page of this thread.
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  #91  
Old 02-02-2013, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Hey junior: if he wanted to drum up money, wouldn't he *overrstate* the direness of the situation, rather that downplay it?
Pssst. Gun grabbers dont use logic.
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  #92  
Old 02-02-2013, 5:09 PM
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Thanks for the update, Gene.

I'm squared away and ready to roll.

Attachment 200578

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  #93  
Old 02-02-2013, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Baja Daze View Post
In regards to Universal Background Checks (UBC), which may be the only item able to pass thru Congress, this could be hijacked and utilized to prohibit any type of federal/state firearms registration or database (in conjunction with UBC) providing us with a net win. There have been a few plausable ideas posted here with technical solutions on how this could happen. So if UBC passage becomes inevitable, we agree to support (for the children) but only with the appropriate amendment prohibiting registration/databases/collection of various UBC data, etc.
I'd like to know of just one instance where such a prohibition was actually heeded in the end.

If the government ever collects any bit of information, you should assume that it keeps that information despite any laws that would prohibit it from doing so.

This is why it is imperative to prevent registration laws from ever seeing the light of day. We've already lost that front in California. We must not lose it nationally.


Gene's message is probably correct as far as it goes, but I would advise against assuming that any of the federal legislation we're concerned about is truly dead. I would advise fighting against it with the same vigor as you would before Gene's message.

Gene's message is a message to not panic. It must not be misconstrued as a message advising that we drop our guard in any way, or fight any less fiercely against that which might still damage us. We should assume that the AWB, magazine restriction bills, etc., are all still dangerous until we know that they are no longer a threat.
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The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why.

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  #94  
Old 02-02-2013, 5:25 PM
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You could always "just go away" if you don't like CalGuns. No one is forcing you to be here. ?
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  #95  
Old 02-02-2013, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman View Post
This situation is still playing out at the normal and glacially slow pace of the court system. However, our opposition can no longer offer unloaded open carry as somehow legally fulfilling a right to bear arms outside the home. Gene himself offered the timeline for the conclusion of this process.
No, he offered the timeline for the next step of the process.

Following that, we have to win Richards. How long that takes depends on what the 9th Circuit actually does with it. Kachalsky is only about "good cause", while Richards is about both that and "good moral character". While the logic the Supreme Court will almost certainly apply to "good cause" should apply equally well to "good moral character", that is no guarantee that the 9th Circuit will not ignore Kachalsky and insist that the Supreme Court "say so more plainly" about "good moral character".

After we win Richards, we will have to file and win lawsuits in the various anti-gun strongholds that will continue to infringe upon the right, and keep doing so until they stop. That alone will be a lengthy process.

I figure we are at least 3 years away from having true and usable shall-issue concealed carry in the anti-gun strongholds. The issuance delays alone (on the order of something like a year in Sacramento, if I'm not mistaken -- you can expect similar "delays" in anti-gun strongholds) are going to take a long time to clear up.
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The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why.

I hope I end up having to donate another $1000 to CGF... However, this $500 is one I hope to not have to donate...

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  #96  
Old 02-02-2013, 6:35 PM
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Kevin,

No. Assuming we win Kachalsky there will be no more substantive litigation in Richards. The lower courts will simply enter judgement in our favor in the 2 to 6 weeks after the Supreme Court decision.

Go look at what happened in Chicago suburbs that had also been sued by NRA after McDonald was handed down.

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  #97  
Old 02-02-2013, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeet25 View Post
The gratuitous critique of his shooting technique notwithstanding, this photo of POTUS is a win for 2A.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Yep, they can't claim any longer that touching a gun gives you cooties.
Why would anti gunners be comforted by this president handling a firearm in public? this president is a killer by proxy. He's ordered drone strikes on an individual basis, and has sent troops into battle in as of yet undeclared wars. He's no hero to them; just a tool. And now a tool that is pandering to their opponents
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  #98  
Old 02-02-2013, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RKV View Post
When the Whitehouse has to release a photo of the pResident shooting. They can read the polls. We're not done by a long shot, but this has got to make the Brady Bunch cringe folks.


this reminds of the shirtless Putin on a horse or a Ferdinand Marcos on a treadmill. I call it third world country Propaganda. CRASS

and oh by the way..if Democrats continue to win elections, watch our 2A and Constitution slip away irrespective of what CALGUNS does. Thats just a simple FACT.

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  #99  
Old 02-02-2013, 7:42 PM
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Quick, somebody set up a 3-gun course at Camp David.
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  #100  
Old 02-02-2013, 7:46 PM
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Thanks Gene.
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  #101  
Old 02-02-2013, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Kevin,

No. Assuming we win Kachalsky there will be no more substantive litigation in Richards. The lower courts will simply enter judgement in our favor in the 2 to 6 weeks after the Supreme Court decision.
Doesn't this make assumptions about when/whether the 9th Circuit issues a ruling in Richards, as well as what that ruling actually is?

As for the lower courts directly entering judgment in our favor in followup cases, that presumes that Richards has already been ruled upon in our favor. If Richards hasn't actually been ruled upon, then the lower courts will stay their cases pending Richards, because Richards involves "good moral character" while Kachalsky does not.

And if you really think the differing fact patterns make no difference at all, I remind you that Osterweil v Bartlett not only exists despite Heller and McDonald, but was ruled against by the district court. Fact pattern differences matter, and courts are happy to magnify those differences to the Nth degree if doing so will allow them to issue the ruling they wish in the face of otherwise contradictory jurisprudence.


For some reason, you seem to insist on treating the courts in question as if they are indifferent to the right. They are not. They are hostile to the right. That hostility doesn't vanish just because the Supreme Court supports the right.


Quote:
Go look at what happened in Chicago suburbs that had also been sued by NRA after McDonald was handed down.
That's different. McDonald was in the same circuit as those cases (though that shouldn't matter). Additionally, I'm guessing there were no differences in the fact patterns that those courts could point to in order to essentially ignore the ruling (indeed, the ordinance in question might even have been the same one that had already been struck down in McDonald, but I'm guessing that's not the case), something that is not true of Richards versus Kachalsky. Finally, I'm guessing that those cases hadn't reached the appellate court yet (as it happens, if they had, the 7th Circuit would have struck down the laws/ordinances in question as well, because the 7th Circuit has been more honest about the 2nd Amendment jurisprudence handed down by the Supreme Court than the 9th Circuit has).

The only reason I'm guessing those things is that my meager search skills aren't able to find the cases you're referring to, so I can't go look them up for myself. Would you mind citing them?
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The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why.

I hope I end up having to donate another $1000 to CGF... However, this $500 is one I hope to not have to donate...

Last edited by kcbrown; 02-02-2013 at 8:21 PM..
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  #102  
Old 02-02-2013, 8:12 PM
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Very nice summary.
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  #103  
Old 02-02-2013, 8:24 PM
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Thank you .. Thank you .. Thank YOU!
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  #104  
Old 02-02-2013, 8:24 PM
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Thank you Gene. I am going to donate to the CGF as soon as I have some more funds. Much appreciate the good work you are doing.
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  #105  
Old 02-02-2013, 8:48 PM
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whoa i didn't know dear leader was left handed...

on a different note, thanks much for all of the work by the CGF legal team!

the federal situation isn't TOO surprising, but i'm still a bit worried about the state although i guess the thin silver lining would be if they step too far and the courts realize/declare all of these regulations as asinine.

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  #106  
Old 02-02-2013, 9:14 PM
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You are a good leader, Gene. Keep up the good work. May I suggest that Cal-Guns focus some effort on the work John Noveske was doing to show the link between mass shootings and the dosing of our population (specifically youngsters) with Ritalin, Prozac and Paxil (as well as similar SSRI drugs)? We just lost John in a very strange "single car" accident, and today we lost Chris Kyle (American Sniper) at a shooting range in Glen Rose, Texas when, it appears, he was murdered by one of the PTSD affected veterans he was trying to mentor at the shooting range. It's not just mental illness - the pharmaceuticals are part of the problem. We really do need to re-focus and re-frame the discussion away from the implements and onto the actor and the drugs that are frequently the fuel for the actions.
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  #107  
Old 02-02-2013, 9:27 PM
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if another massacre happens though we are
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  #108  
Old 02-02-2013, 9:33 PM
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can someone tell me a little history about existing 10rd limit and bullet button requirements? where did they come from? anyone challenged it?
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  #109  
Old 02-02-2013, 9:41 PM
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can someone tell me a little history about existing 10rd limit and bullet button requirements? where did they come from? anyone challenged it?
That's the 'features' version of 'assault weapons' and the large-capacity magazine provision. 'Detachable magazine' is a defined feature; 'magazine lock' (bullet button) is a work-around that changes a rifle so it no longer accepts a 'detachable magazine' as that is legally defined.

Both were part of 1999's SB 23 - http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/99-00/...chaptered.html

Until Heller/McDonald, no one could survive a standing challenge to such a suit; 'assault weapons' are not first priority, so it hasn't been pushed directly.
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  #110  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gudguy View Post
if Democrats continue to win elections, watch our 2A and Constitution slip away irrespective of what CALGUNS does. Thats just a simple FACT.
That's not even half the FACT. The full fact is that as long as any politicians continue to win elections, the entire Constitution is at risk. Republicans are just as quick to use it as a doormat to scrape off unwanted liberty.
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Old 02-03-2013, 2:52 AM
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So let's turn this around. What events would convince you we are making progress? At the extreme, complete liberation of firearms -- repeal the 1934, 1968, 1986, etc firearm acts -- absolutely no laws singling out firearms for anything. I presume that would do it, but we all know that's not going to happen. So what short of that would it take to convince you that we are making progress?
IMO easy access to CCW for citizens with no criminal record. This is the single most important gun right in existence, whether you all agree with me or not. But right now that doesn't even matter because more gun rights are about to be taken away while Calguns is BS'ing about Keeping Calm and Carrying On. Carry on with what? Carry on with the money coming in? LoL

No one has answered my question yet, what the Hell has Calguns done to reclaim any gun rights here in CA? All that's being done is a whole lot of talk and not much else. Have they won any court cases directly that won us anything? If not, what the hell are they doing? I really must be the only person here wondering this huh?

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Originally Posted by Gunlawyer View Post
Pssst. Gun grabbers dont use logic.
Neither do sheep being led to slaughter.
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  #112  
Old 02-03-2013, 3:01 AM
Wild Squid Wild Squid is offline
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Some of you probably ask what do I think should be done right? Well, why not actually tell the people you're donating to to get their asses in court and actually do some work for that money? All I see is lawyers sitting on their asses getting rich while giving you all excuses why they can't do this or that right now. I believe the truth is, they know they'd lose anyways and aren't willing to risk their own ***. I'll tell you all what you're doing, you're staying on the bandwagon to doom because that is where its most comfortable, everybody wants to try and think alike and agree with each other.
Most people can't think for themselves and need others to tell them what to do, and that's exactly what's going on here.
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  #113  
Old 02-03-2013, 3:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Wild Squid View Post
Some of you probably ask what do I think should be done right? Well, why not actually tell the people you're donating to to get their asses in court and actually do some work for that money? All I see is lawyers sitting on their asses getting rich while giving you all excuses why they can't do this or that right now. I believe the truth is, they know they'd lose anyways and aren't willing to risk their own ***. I'll tell you all what you're doing, you're staying on the bandwagon to doom because that is where its most comfortable, everybody wants to try and think alike and agree with each other.
Most people can't think for themselves and need others to tell them what to do, and that's exactly what's going on here.
And what exactly are you doing to help?
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  #114  
Old 02-03-2013, 4:34 AM
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First, thank you, Gene. A little perspective always helps, even if the fight isn't over.

Second, about the President "shooting" skeet digression... what has been more worrying to me than the photo drumming up his version of 'support' for the 2A... a quote from the "New Republic" article that very closely approximates something he said a few days after signing the EOs. Cut and pasted from this article.

White House photo shows Obama skeet shooting
February 02, 2013 6:36 PM EST
WASHINGTON (AP) — Two days before President Barack Obama's first trip outside Washington to promote his gun-control proposals, the White House tried Saturday to settle a brewing mystery by releasing a photo to back his claim to be a skeet shooter.

"I have a profound respect for the traditions of hunting that trace back in this country for generations. And I think those who dismiss that out of hand make a big mistake," Obama said. "Part of being able to move this forward is understanding the reality of guns in urban areas are very different from the realities of guns in rural areas. And if you grew up and your dad gave you a hunting rifle when you were 10, and you went out and spent the day with him and your uncles, and that became part of your family's traditions, you can see why you'd be pretty protective of that."

This repeated hammering home of the idea the tradition of hunting and hunting gun ownership is somehow a reasonable (middle American outreach) but we who are city dwellers are somehow distinctly different and therefore our gun ownership expectations should be different because we live in cities 'where all this gun violence takes place'.

Since I doubt he is suggesting that the residents of Chicago, Philadelphia, DC and L.A. should all own ARs and normal capacity magazines to PROTECT ourselves from all those criminals who commit all this 'difference', I fear the results if he can assuage the 'rural Republican' fears and consolidate the major urban areas behind the notion that an AWB or other nonsense will save the lives of the average kid on the streets of urban America.

Someone please tell me I'm being 'paranoid' so I can go back to enjoying the sense of relaxation I had reading (most) of the first page of this thread.

Nope. You've called it true.


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  #115  
Old 02-03-2013, 6:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow Repair View Post
So let's turn this around. What events would convince you we are making progress? At the extreme, complete liberation of firearms -- repeal the 1934, 1968, 1986, etc firearm acts -- absolutely no laws singling out firearms for anything. I presume that would do it, but we all know that's not going to happen. So what short of that would it take to convince you that we are making progress?
I won't speak for someone else, but from my perspecitive as a nonresident nothing has changed in California. I've been on this forum for close to two years - in that time I've seen changes in may or no issue states like Iowa and Wisconsin that allow me to now carry there, but zero change in California.

To directly answer the question I'd say shall issue for residents and nonresidents alike, no gun roster, no mag capacity limits, no bullet buttons ie make California gun laws similar to most other states. That doesn't seem near as daunting as the extreme you mentioned. I understand there has been incremental progress since 2000, but compared to what's happened in other states since then it's been glacial at best.

Understand this isn't a complaint - I'm sure Calguns is doing what they can in a challenging environment. I actually have fewer reasons to visit California now than ever before in my life, but it sure would be nice to be able to legally carry there when I do if I so choose.
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  #116  
Old 02-03-2013, 6:55 AM
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Gene, anything you write is well worth reading, even if i live in TX now.TX is a much freer state in many ways, not just guns.Did you know here you can get insulin and insulin needles over the counter here? No RX required.
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  #117  
Old 02-03-2013, 7:08 AM
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Originally Posted by skeet25 View Post
this photo of POTUS is a win for 2A.
No it's not.

They know they can't do a gun "ban" so it's all about "safety."

See, the President is in favor of good, safe gun ownership, 2A is about hunting and he respects that, he just wants to get the bad guns off the streets and out of the hands of criminals. That is their narrative.
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  #118  
Old 02-03-2013, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by taiwon View Post
if another massacre happens though we are
if it happens with a bomb or fires, they will be forced to deal with the real issues.

*I'm not wishing this to happen and pray it doesn't.
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  #119  
Old 02-03-2013, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Wild Squid View Post
Some of you probably ask what do I think should be done right? Well, why not actually tell the people you're donating to to get their asses in court and actually do some work for that money? All I see is lawyers sitting on their asses getting rich while giving you all excuses why they can't do this or that right now. I believe the truth is, they know they'd lose anyways and aren't willing to risk their own ***. I'll tell you all what you're doing, you're staying on the bandwagon to doom because that is where its most comfortable, everybody wants to try and think alike and agree with each other.
Most people can't think for themselves and need others to tell them what to do, and that's exactly what's going on here.
your last statement is regarding your post right?... everyone should have you tell them how they should think/feel?

Because yes, that's exactly what's going on here.
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  #120  
Old 02-03-2013, 8:22 AM
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M. D. Van Norman M. D. Van Norman is offline
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Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
No, he offered the timeline for the next step of the process.
Gene’s optimism aside, this is assumed.
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