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  #1  
Old 01-26-2013, 1:44 PM
red ryder 47 red ryder 47 is offline
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Default MKA 1919 VS Saiga 12

Want to see some opinions on this subject. Actual people who have shot these guns.
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  #2  
Old 01-26-2013, 7:28 PM
ChrisBrooklyn ChrisBrooklyn is offline
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saiga 12 is a great gun, alot of fun to shoot and it just feeeeeds all day, never had a problem with it
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  #3  
Old 01-26-2013, 7:42 PM
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Vs. Vepr

Vepr wins. All the upgrades an s12 needs to shoot various loads, right out of the box.
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  #4  
Old 01-26-2013, 8:53 PM
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+1 Vepr 12. I would like to eventually buy a MKA1919, but I hear the internals are really complicated. It being newer and not extremely popular would make it hard to find someone who would know how to work on it.
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  #5  
Old 01-26-2013, 9:02 PM
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I only own a Saiga 12 But I LOVE it. Its a fast shooter and 100% reliable with me. I shoot mainly federal Birdshot and it shoots perfect. Also not much recoil. I say get a Saiga 12.

If you don't like it, you can sell quickly.
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  #6  
Old 01-27-2013, 3:28 PM
red ryder 47 red ryder 47 is offline
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Thanks for the replies. Is there no one that put sum rounds through a 1919?
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  #7  
Old 01-27-2013, 4:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red ryder 47 View Post
Thanks for the replies. Is there no one that put sum rounds through a 1919?
Here you go. Review plus eye candy.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?...ches-recently/

I wasn't on his squad at Ironman. But the overall feedback I got from competition shooters is that it is still a work-in-progress. Beta-test mode.

The Saiga 12, on the other hand, is like a Remington 870 among magazine fed self-loading shotguns. Check out the Tromix website.
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  #8  
Old 01-28-2013, 9:17 AM
TZL TZL is offline
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I might be one of the few people to own both the S12 and Akdal MKA1919 on Calguns

I have 4 Saiga 12s (three converted and 1 stock) and 2 Akdal 1919s (one converted and one stock)

I also am looking to get 2-3 VEPR 12s (I have them on back order)

See one of each here, S12 on the left and 1919 on the right


Last edited by TZL; 01-28-2013 at 9:38 AM..
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  #9  
Old 01-28-2013, 9:28 AM
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Both guns (S12 and 1919) take alot of work to make them run well for a 3-gun setup, but here are my observations

S12s run very good out of the box with slugs/buck....but extremely poorly with target loads. If you want to run target loads for 3-gun etc, you have to do ALOT of work which includes 1) gas puck or adjustable auto-plug (auto plus is OK, not perfect), 2) lighter recoil springs 3) polished bolt 4) making sure your gas ports are perfect

The problem is when your S12 is running target loads perfectly, its overgassed for bucks/slugs/3"....which is why i run an adjustable gas plug, which i think is an OK solution, but doesn't have the same "run whatever you throw at it" capability like a Beretta A400, Remington VersaMax, Benelli M4

The Akdal is the same way, its good on buck/slugs/3" out of the box, but takes some work to get to cycle target loads reliably. The one I converted has the works, Firebird forearm with left side charging, Firebird hammer, Tromix trigger, Tromix AR stock adapter, Tromix pistol grip adapter, Firebird charging handle, muzzle brake, Magpul MOE stock (pinned), Ergo grip, EO Tech 512

The truth is that both are good for EITHER target loads or heavy loads, but can't readily be adjusted to shoot both reliably

The two key PROS / advantages of the Akdal are

+1) Bullet Button / magwell - S12 and all AK bullet button are a PITA in CA...the Akdal is AR style push button BB so loads easier to use. I have a S12 fitted with the R&R magwell (which is AR style) but it requires the mags be modified to fit and it cost $300 so it eats up any price advantage

+2) weight - its 1-2 lbs lighter than the Saiga 12 (if you run a stock or smooth forearm on the Akdal

The major CON on the Akdal is:

-1) Work, you have to cut the one piece lower to install the stock and grip, this is NOT for novices and if you f-up you are out an akdal 1919 as you can't buy separate lowers just yet (firebird is working on it)

-2) Much less parts availability / rarer

Last edited by TZL; 01-28-2013 at 9:39 AM..
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  #10  
Old 01-28-2013, 9:38 AM
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In CA the VEPR has the same problem as any other S12, the bullet button sucks and is hard to actuate

But if you don't mind that, i think it has lots of potential, its basically a pre-mod'd Saiga 12

Just remember to be 922R compliant, so i'm guessing you'll still need to swap out alot of parts to run 10 rounders

(I have VERPs on backorder)

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Originally Posted by jrock View Post
Vs. Vepr

Vepr wins. All the upgrades an s12 needs to shoot various loads, right out of the box.
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  #11  
Old 01-28-2013, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TZL View Post
The truth is that both are good for EITHER target loads or heavy loads, but can't readily be adjusted to shoot both reliably
I used to think that way, then a shotgun guru commented here on the forum that I should match the ammo to the gun, not the other way around.

For example, on any Saiga 12 equipped with an aftermarket 5/6 setting gas valve, first I find a setting that reliably cycles 1 1/8 oz birdshot, then find a non-full power slug, or buckshot loading with similar velocity. Chances are you can use the same setting for low recoil 00 buck, medium velocity slug, and birdshot. Assuming no QC problem from the factory.

or just order a VEPR. My guess is that during the final test firing QC phase at the factory, the S12 is test-fired with full power 00 Buck only, while the VEPR is test fired with both buckshot and birdshot.
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  #12  
Old 01-28-2013, 1:44 PM
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I have a S12 with an autoplug that WILL cycle target loads and low recoil buck/slug AND 3" buck/slug, however I have yet to get it to run 100% with a mixed mag

I "feel" like that the lighter return spring probably excessively beats up the receiver with 3" loads, where as the heavier return spring is fine with the 3" but doesn't reliably cycle the #8 target loads....no proof of this as that S12 doesn't seem to show excessive wear on the back of the receiver, only based on my felt recoil

The Akdal MKA1919 doesn't allow the same sort of on the fly gas adjustment (no valve, so you have to tune with shims/springs)

Of course we don't know if VEPR12s are perfect either, I've read positive initial feedback, but they've only been around for a couple months... we'll have to see once they get alot more traction

I'm looking forward to my VEPR12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caseless View Post
I used to think that way, then a shotgun guru commented here on the forum that I should match the ammo to the gun, not the other way around.

For example, on any Saiga 12 equipped with an aftermarket 5/6 setting gas valve, first I find a setting that reliably cycles 1 1/8 oz birdshot, then find a non-full power slug, or buckshot loading with similar velocity. Chances are you can use the same setting for low recoil 00 buck, medium velocity slug, and birdshot. Assuming no QC problem from the factory.

or just order a VEPR. My guess is that during the final test firing QC phase at the factory, the S12 is test-fired with full power 00 Buck only, while the VEPR is test fired with both buckshot and birdshot.
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  #13  
Old 01-28-2013, 5:00 PM
Sam .223 Sam .223 is offline
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my S12 runs all day and eats whateveer i feed it, provided i have the gas setting on the correct setting for the ammo used, that said i did a few things to it to make it run like this, i polished the bolt and drilled the gas ports to the correct size as they were to small from the factory. i probably could've just drilled the gas ports and it would've run fine but i did the bolt since i had it out. all in all not a lot of work and not a lot of money spent, i didn't need recoil spring or gas puck or regulator mods, if the gas ports are correct you wouldn't need those either. the auto plug regulator is mainly an over gased fixer, but it would be a nice add on to keep from haveing to adjust from setting 1 or 2 for the different shot used. i love my S12 and it gets alot of unneeded attention when i take it out.
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  #14  
Old 01-28-2013, 5:40 PM
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I've never shot a 1919, but I do love my Saiga 12.

I did though have to do some work on the gas ports with a drill press to get it to run correctly though. Mine was from that batch a few years back that shipped with only two small gas ports instead of the normal 3 or 4, and my 2 were partly obstructed on top of that.

After I did the work to it, it runs great with all loads, and shoots very fast as long as you don't let it push you back (the gun is notorious for jamming if you let it push you around, but never jams if you show it who's boss).
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  #15  
Old 01-28-2013, 7:04 PM
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If the OP can find a 1919 at a pre-panic price I will buy it and test it against my Saiga 12. He can even help with the testing.
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  #16  
Old 01-29-2013, 7:37 PM
red ryder 47 red ryder 47 is offline
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Thx for all the replies, big help. I went with s12. I have only shot 2 3/4 slug so far, ran like a beast I love it! This sat I will try some bird shot to see how it runs.
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  #17  
Old 01-29-2013, 7:51 PM
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I saw a MKA1919 for sale, went to pick up my wife from work and went right back to pick up the MKA1919....GONE!! So mad, still mad!! That was 2 days right after the Sandyhook shooting......now I cant find them anywhere!
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Old 01-29-2013, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red ryder 47 View Post
Thx for all the replies, big help. I went with s12. I have only shot 2 3/4 slug so far, ran like a beast I love it! This sat I will try some bird shot to see how it runs.
That's good news. Have fun!
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Old 01-29-2013, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mif_slim View Post
I saw a MKA1919 for sale, went to pick up my wife from work and went right back to pick up the MKA1919....GONE!! So mad, still mad!! That was 2 days right after the Sandyhook shooting......now I cant find them anywhere!
Maybe one of the gun novices thought it was a Bushmaster and just had to have it!
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  #20  
Old 01-29-2013, 10:18 PM
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My vote is for the 930 SPX with rifle stock. You can swap out the stock for a pistol grip style for less than converting a S12. Best part is it is not on any ban lists (yet) and is 7+1 (8+1 if ghost loaded) out of the box and 10/11+1 with a mag tube extension. I just ordered a 28" barrel for under $200 shipped, so it will be my all around shotgun for way less than a converted S12.

Oh ya, no need to try and find mags and its made in USA!!!




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  #21  
Old 01-30-2013, 11:53 AM
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FYI Mike at http://armsofamerica.com/ is getting some 1919 in stock soon, not sure what the price will be.

Only "catch" is that they have a "zombie slayer" paint job on them that could be considered a.) cool or b.) cheesy depending on your taste.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 56Chevy View Post
Maybe one of the gun novices thought it was a Bushmaster and just had to have it!
Yeah but a Bushmaster is Evil!!
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  #23  
Old 01-30-2013, 1:06 PM
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I love my Saiga12, eats everything! Imho don't get any adjustable gas block. I've had the 5 position one and it was too finnicky to mess with. Keep the original 2 setting gas block, and if you forget which setting to put it in, it has a FTE. The only time I've had FTF's is with the factory saiga mags with bird shot. I've put over 2k in birdshot and around 1k of slugs and OObuck since and never had any more problems. I only run agp gen2 10rd mags now. No more saiga 8 rd. Or surefire mags. A plus is if you shoot a lot of clay (like me) get a polychoke (adjustable dram pattern and has a slug setting you can shoot 100yards no drop!) and a AK low fsb (file down the front bead sight on the gas block so you have a longer sight radius). Us shotgunners love low sights and this makes it easies hitting clay pigeons! Here's mine!
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Old 01-30-2013, 1:11 PM
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I would have gotten a vepr12 but they weren't out when I got my saiga 12. My buddy got a vepr12 and he loves it ! But he has FTF every now and then. Apparently since its a slip in mag in a magwell (not like a saiga rock n lock) he has problems feeding, and mags are hard to come by. I do admit his has a removable gas tube,hinged dust cover, and an adjustable rear sight leaf. But I'm happy I got my saiga12.
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Old 01-30-2013, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mif_slim View Post
Yeah but a Bushmaster is Evil!!
I forgot.
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:51 AM
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I have two VEPR 12's
One will remain stock and the other has some "Tacti-Cool" goodies.
I have other shotguns but nothing in the mag-style semi-automatic family.
This is my first and I absolutely love it. Last Round Bolt Hold Open is great.
As mentioned the CA Bullet Button sucks but what can you do?
I highly recommend the rifle if you can get your hands on one!
It's accurate with iron sights and I've only shot outdoor once on a 50 yard line but couldn't miss. Inside at 25 yards with 00 Buck it leaves a 1.5" hole in each head of a quad silhouette target with ease.
My motto relative to purchasing one mimics the NIKE Corp.'s motto "Just Do It!"
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  #27  
Old 02-02-2013, 8:19 PM
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only thing i wish my S12 had is a bolt hold open after the last shot, but i still have the manual bolt hold open on mine. If anyone knows where I can get one, please PM or post here. anyways, what advantages do the agp mags offer over the surefires? also, can i use my surefire saiga mags (8's and 10's) in a vepr?

would love a vepr 12 in the future when things calm down (hopefully they will). basically seem like what a saiga 12 should have been the 1st time around construction-wise (although at a fraction of the price, i guess we can't complain too much).

Other than that, w/ the following my s12 works almost 100% once i dial in the right gas setting for that particular ammo: polished bolt and rails, lighter recoil spring, adjustable gas puck, bigger gas ports & properly aligned gas block, and reshaped tapco g2 trigger/hammer. if its over gassed, it will cycle too fast and re-chamber the empty shell (not to mention beat the frame up). under gassed and it won't fully eject the shells. have only had 1 ftf after i got the gas settings dialed in - the magazine didn't feed the shell when it was still new. i have never been able to reproduce this issue, even when i intentionally tried to jam the magazine up.
also, HK sights (full size like on an mp5, not the mini ones you see people using as back up sights on an ar) on an S12 are awesome.

Last edited by penguinofsleep; 02-02-2013 at 8:22 PM..
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Old 02-02-2013, 8:28 PM
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TZL:

aside from the easier to use bullet button and lighter weight, do you see anything about the design of the 1919 as inherently superior to a saiga or vepr 12? i've played around with the 1919 before but didn't get to shoot it (i and the other guy were both out of shells). the only thing i could maybe imagine is it might be easier to insert the 1919 magazines - as you probably know, the s12 magazines can be a little tricky to insert properly, especially if you are running/moving around or under stress.

it felt like a heavier ar but a little less front heavy than my s12 when i played around with it, but in a shotgun i don't see the ar or ak design being superior to most existing designs other than allowing for magazine fed operation.
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  #29  
Old 02-03-2013, 8:49 PM
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Atlantic Firearms sent me an e-mail yesterday, while I was at work, to say that the MKA 1919 was in stock for $699. I was able to add it to my cart, but when I got to the CC information somebody needed my help. When I went back it was gone from my cart. Imagine people making me work for my money while I'm trying to waste money!
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Old 02-04-2013, 9:27 AM
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Penguinofsleep

1) The magazine insert is key on the Akdal, I guess the VEPR is more straight insert, but compared to a standard Saiga12, the Akdal 1919 is much easier (straight AR type)

I have one saiga 12 that I keep in another state with a R&R custom magwell which allows straight inserts, but the mags are modified Surefires that won't work in a normal S12 now.

I find standard S12 mags super hard to get in on a closed bolt and full mag

2) Action, just like an AR vs AK, I feel that the action of the Akdal is smoother than a S12. Partly the action itself (since the Akdal gas parts are under the barrel its not directly inline, but less mass moving around than a Saiga) but also the position of the stock, if you have an aftermarket stock setup, you can position it vertically to be inline with the barrel

3) Controls are AR15 like as far as safety and bolt release. Charging is like an AK as its on the bolt

4) Minor, but the Akdal has last round hold open, just like an AR...easier for inserting a full mag

5) Akdal is still nose heavy, just a bit less so than a Saiga 12

(I can't compare with VEPR12 as I don't have one yet, on order, but no direct experience with a VEPR12...I assume its like a tuned Saiga with magwell)

Many cons to the Akdal

Take down is stupid, EXTREMELY stupid, its not like an AR15 where you push two pins.

You have to unscrew the gas system from the front, then remove all the gas system crap like springs and bushings, then remove the charging handle and barrel

Then you have to remove the bolt at the rear, if you are running an OEM stock, that mean removing the butt pad and loosening an allen key and pushing the upper half forward gently to separate the upper and lower

If you have an aftermarket stock setup like I do, you have to remove the stock, then remove the AR stock adapter, then remove the allen key and separate the halves.

You also have to take extreme care not to f'up the feed lips which are polymer that are molded in the lower but stick up into the upper. Firebird is working on some billet lowers which will help with this...but just plain stupid design.

Once you separated the upper and lower, then you can remove the bolt etc....stupid, stupid, stupid...you basically have to take apart the whole gun to do anything


Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinofsleep View Post
TZL:

aside from the easier to use bullet button and lighter weight, do you see anything about the design of the 1919 as inherently superior to a saiga or vepr 12? i've played around with the 1919 before but didn't get to shoot it (i and the other guy were both out of shells). the only thing i could maybe imagine is it might be easier to insert the 1919 magazines - as you probably know, the s12 magazines can be a little tricky to insert properly, especially if you are running/moving around or under stress.

it felt like a heavier ar but a little less front heavy than my s12 when i played around with it, but in a shotgun i don't see the ar or ak design being superior to most existing designs other than allowing for magazine fed operation.
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Old 02-04-2013, 9:29 AM
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Agreed, in CA with mag locks, I find the Saiga12 and Akdal just toys

I'm much much faster with my tuned Benelli

In a "free state" the mags would be a significant advantage which would help overcome the other issues.


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but in a shotgun i don't see the ar or ak design being superior to most existing designs other than allowing for magazine fed operation.
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  #32  
Old 02-06-2013, 1:11 PM
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thanks for the info. after that, i think i can wait on someone else making another magazine fed shotgun. hopefully one designed from the ground up to be easier/better with shells instead of a highly modified non-ideal AK or AR platform.

now i just need to:
- find a bolt hold open for my s12
- maybe shorten the barrel down to 18.25
- shorten lop by 1/2 inch. im using an ace stock and its too long, but my last ak style stock was 1.5 inch shorter lop and it absolutely killed my shoulders trying to shoot with that stock b/c i couldn't get a good stance. if anyone has any suggestions, please send them my way. btw, i've already removed the tang on my s12.
the way it is now, kick is very manageable, but my stance is a bit awkward unless im shooting clays, which is awkward in and of itself with an s12. ive always found the benelli m2 stocks about 3/4 or 1" too long as well, but it seems like they work for most people - i don't know of any after market options out there that still allow for a straight non pistol grip stock other than custom work on the existing stock.
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Old 02-06-2013, 1:18 PM
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also, maybe i should start a new thread, but anyone have any feedback on the kushnapup conversion for an s12? i believe these still leave the s12 in a CA legal config provided someone can work out a bullet button? not sure what to think b/c i imagine if i wanted, i could get a "pistol" s12 much like a pistol ak? if not, id probably leave it for an sbr if i ever left the state, but its always nice to know about other options.

only thing i've heard of so far was that people didn't like cutting their tangs off, but i dont mind that myself.
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  #34  
Old 02-06-2013, 2:25 PM
TZL TZL is offline
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My S12s all have BHO

Not last round hold open, but was able to carry over the stock one on the conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinofsleep View Post

now i just need to:
- find a bolt hold open for my s12
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