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  #1  
Old 01-30-2013, 2:18 PM
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Default Group sizes or ladder testing for new 308 loads at 100y (9x scope)

I'll be testing my new 308 loads tomorrow at 100y. I'm a relatively new rifle shooter, and I only have a 3x-9x scope. I don't want to push it to further distances.

Should I shoot 3-4 rounds of each load and measure group size, or should I use the ladder technique to find the best load range?
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Old 01-30-2013, 2:56 PM
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The premise of the ladder test is to shoot a group of rounds, with each round having one variable. You need to monitor where each round impacts. The rounds that group together lets you know the "sweet" spot. With a .308, I would try the test a 300 yards, the rounds will spread out more at that range. It may be difficult to make that determination at 100 yards.
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Old 01-30-2013, 3:03 PM
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Yeah, that's what i suspected. I just don't know if I can hold my point of aim at 300y. I'll see how it looks in real life when I get there tomorrow.
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Old 01-30-2013, 3:28 PM
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I shoot one round of each powder loading to determine low node and high node from 200 yards, 300 is OK to.
Take a middle load from the high node cluster and
load5 rounds from jam (into the lands) to jump in .005 increments. reducing seating depth by .005 for each subsequent group of 5 rounds. your load will be revealed to you.
They will be all over the target until you hit the favored seating depth,at which point your groups will close up significantly
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Old 01-30-2013, 3:29 PM
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What type of rest are you using?
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Old 01-30-2013, 3:31 PM
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I would suggest shooting small groups of each load at 100y like you suggested. This allows you to better predict future load performance in grouping. Also, as a novice shooter it allows you more data points to help factor out "user error" in your groups. You'll still see sweet spots in the different load ranges. my. 02.
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Old 01-30-2013, 3:35 PM
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You can do it at 100 yards, the differences will just be really small. Its SOOOO inconvenient to test at 300 yards. Plus wind has too much effect at that range and can really screw your groups
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Old 01-30-2013, 3:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blockfort View Post
I'll be testing my new 308 loads tomorrow at 100y. I'm a relatively new rifle shooter, and I only have a 3x-9x scope. I don't want to push it to further distances.

Should I shoot 3-4 rounds of each load and measure group size, or should I use the ladder technique to find the best load range?
I think it depends on what the ammo will be used for. If you're looking to shoot long range (800 yds +) then your not looking for one hole accuracy. If your a bench rest shooter then your looking for bragging rights as to who has the tightest groups.

If your long range, then your going to be loading to as close to max powder load as possible. I'd start with a ladder test with a string of rounds loaded in 0.2 grain increments from 2 grains below max to the first step over max. Check for pressure signs after firing each round and stop at the first sign of pressure dangers. And, shoot your ladder at least 200 yds, preferably 300 yds.

What you're looking for is consecutive loads that fire at similar vertical height. Don't be concerned about rounds that string left to right, those are probably you. You want the 2-3 rounds the shot the lowest moa vertically. That is your power node. Pick the middle load and load for that round, and if your loading is off a 10th of a grain or two you'll still be hitting at that node range. Remember your shooting long range so you only need a round that will consistently give you 1 moa at 1000 yds or 10".

As a new shooter, you may want to run the ladder more than once to have a better chance of taking the shooter out of the equation. But only shot one round of each weight per ladder. Your not looking for the tightest groups by load but the tightest node.

Now if your looking for one hole accuracy, I'd suggest setting up 4-5 six to eight inch targets on one target stand at 100 yds. Load starting 3-5 rounds at the recommended starting load and in increments of 0.3-0.5 grains. Shot round robin, one round of each weight per each of the targets. Then return to the start and shot the next string. That will take the odds of your having a better than average string with one load weight.

After the first set of loads are complete, you can load a new set of targets and move on to the next 4-5 load weight. Don't rush thru, as that will only overheat the barrel and taint your results.

Your not looking for bullseyes, since each load will have a different trajectory, your just looking for the tightest groups whether they are above or below the POA. If you find consecutive (2) groups that are better then the rest, that will be your accuracy node. Go back and load 5 rounds in 0.1 gr increments starting 0.2 grs below the first target and ending 0.2 grs above the 2nd. Find the tightest grouping of that string, and you have your load.
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Old 01-30-2013, 4:11 PM
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you really should try to do a ladder test above the noise floor, >200 yards

come on mang, put the edumakashun to work!
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Old 01-30-2013, 4:16 PM
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Thanks everyone. Hoo boy, there's a lot to respond to.

I am a relatively new rifle shooter, maybe 6 sessions so far with 50-80 rounds per session, but I have Palma style sights (except for this test, I re-mounted my scope). I have only been shooting at 100y because 200y without magnification is really hard to see! But eventually i will want to push it out further until I do get to 1000 one day.

I want to load test to obviously get the best I can out of my bullets, and to know that if I shoot poorly, it's me and the conditions, not my ammo and gun.

I could do the test at 200y or 300y, but it's hard to walk out there and check or change things at a popular and busy range. Also, I don't think I'm good enough, even if my bullets were laser-like, to hit the same spot ever time at 300y, maybe even just because it's so hard to see, and so the test would tell me nothing useful.

So I think I need to do it at 100y.

I will be shooting on sand bags on concrete benches, with my Nikon 3-9 scope set to 9x. First round is 9 shots at 0.5g increments from just below min to just over max, checking each one for pressure signs.

After that I can do a ladder test or grouping tests. I like the idea of doing 8 or 10 different targets, moving from one load to the next to average out my personal hot streaks. It would be the same way with a regular ladder test, shooting different charges in a row in a string, then reversing the order and doing it again.

Wind may be a problem for horizontal shifts and would ruin my grouping results, but with ladder testing, I am only concerned with vertical spacing, and that takes the wind out of the equation.
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Old 01-30-2013, 6:18 PM
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When you shoot a .308 at 100 yards it's to only to develop a load. I use a Leupold 3-9x50 scope and can shoot well with it at 300-400 yards no problem. Beyond 400 yards I need my spotting scope to track my spread. Using shoot-n-see targets will really help your eyes find your hits. Good luck. My favorite .308 load is 168gr. SMK, 44gr. Varget, Lapua brass, Federal primer, with a OAL of 2.81 Shot out of a 24" barrel with a 11.25 twist. If all 5 rounds don't touch each other at 300 yards then it's me, not my match ammo.
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Old 01-30-2013, 6:45 PM
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I can find my hits easy, I have a good spotting scope. It's seeing the target well through my regular scope at 300y that I might have problems with. Not seeing it at all, but really making sure I'm dead center when I pull the trigger.

It gets a lot more difficult when I shoot with my normal setup which are Palma style aperture sights. No magnification. I'm only using the scope for load dev.

And since I am working my way eventually to shoot Palma matches, I am sticking with the 155gr SMK Palma. And I liked varget, but it is sold out everywhere, so I bought 8 lbs of H4895, hence the new load dev session.
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Old 01-30-2013, 6:49 PM
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Default I used ladder version.

I shot sets of 20 rounds at a target at 100 yards. I kept a smaller version of the same target at the bench and put the numbers on it where they hit. I had easy to define groups at that range. The last time I shot the chosen 'load', I was shooting 1.39" groups at 100 yards with it. When I get better with the rifle I will narrow the ladder and shoot it out at 300 yards. I also have rounds ready to test for my hopefully 1000 yard stuff.

Above is for the .30-06.

Currently hunting for 9mm bullets and primers, down to under 300 rounds.
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Old 01-30-2013, 7:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blockfort View Post
Thanks everyone. Hoo boy, there's a lot to respond to.

I am a relatively new rifle shooter, maybe 6 sessions so far with 50-80 rounds per session, but I have Palma style sights (except for this test, I re-mounted my scope). I have only been shooting at 100y because 200y without magnification is really hard to see! But eventually i will want to push it out further until I do get to 1000 one day.

I want to load test to obviously get the best I can out of my bullets, and to know that if I shoot poorly, it's me and the conditions, not my ammo and gun.

I could do the test at 200y or 300y, but it's hard to walk out there and check or change things at a popular and busy range. Also, I don't think I'm good enough, even if my bullets were laser-like, to hit the same spot ever time at 300y, maybe even just because it's so hard to see, and so the test would tell me nothing useful.

So I think I need to do it at 100y.

I will be shooting on sand bags on concrete benches, with my Nikon 3-9 scope set to 9x. First round is 9 shots at 0.5g increments from just below min to just over max, checking each one for pressure signs.

After that I can do a ladder test or grouping tests. I like the idea of doing 8 or 10 different targets, moving from one load to the next to average out my personal hot streaks. It would be the same way with a regular ladder test, shooting different charges in a row in a string, then reversing the order and doing it again.

Wind may be a problem for horizontal shifts and would ruin my grouping results, but with ladder testing, I am only concerned with vertical spacing, and that takes the wind out of the equation.
Since you are a new shooter, my suggestion regarding your range session tomorrow is just enjoy yourself. Make one load, sight in your rifle, and practice shooting groups. There is a learning curve to shooting groups from a bench and you don't want your errors to be a factor while conducting a ladder test.

It took me days of reading the posts on 6mmbr.com to fully understand the processes of precision reloading and the ladder test. The time you spend understanding these processes will benefit you in interpreting the results. If you would read that entire thread, you will notice that even the experts submit questions regarding their results. The members on that site have a lot of knowledge, experience and wisdom.
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Old 01-30-2013, 7:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blockfort View Post
I can find my hits easy, I have a good spotting scope. It's seeing the target well through my regular scope at 300y that I might have problems with. Not seeing it at all, but really making sure I'm dead center when I pull the trigger.

It gets a lot more difficult when I shoot with my normal setup which are Palma style aperture sights. No magnification. I'm only using the scope for load dev.

And since I am working my way eventually to shoot Palma matches, I am sticking with the 155gr SMK Palma. And I liked varget, but it is sold out everywhere, so I bought 8 lbs of H4895, hence the new load dev session.
I have been thinking about your quest and a few questions came to mind. You might have already figured this stuff out, if so, no need to even respond.

Have you calulated the muzzle velocity you will need for those 155gr SMK's to get out to 1000yds and still have things stablized? My iSnipe app says it will be somewhere north of 2900fps.

Maybe run the numbers yourself so you can have a target velocity in mind when working a load up. Having a load on a nice wide node that is 300fps slower than required won't help much, at least when you start shooting 1000yds.

I was wondering if you can get to the required velocities with a 20" barrel, I was thinking you may run out of room pressure wise, not saying it is so, just wondering.

Just a few random thoughts.
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Old 01-30-2013, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Steele View Post
I have been thinking about your quest and a few questions came to mind. You might have already figured this stuff out, if so, no need to even respond.

Have you calulated the muzzle velocity you will need for those 155gr SMK's to get out to 1000yds and still have things stablized? My iSnipe app says it will be somewhere north of 2900fps.

Maybe run the numbers yourself so you can have a target velocity in mind when working a load up. Having a load on a nice wide node that is 300fps slower than required won't help much, at least when you start shooting 1000yds.

I was wondering if you can get to the required velocities with a 20" barrel, I was thinking you may run out of room pressure wise, not saying it is so, just wondering.

Just a few random thoughts.
I will need quite a bit of velocity to stay supersonic at 1000y, and I probably can't get that out of my 20" barrel, but I'm not shooting at 1000 yet, and I will get a new barrel eventually. For now, I just want to slowly work my way down range.
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Old 01-30-2013, 7:54 PM
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Since you are a new shooter, my suggestion regarding your range session tomorrow is just enjoy yourself. Make one load, sight in your rifle, and practice shooting groups. There is a learning curve to shooting groups from a bench and you don't want your errors to be a factor while conducting a ladder test.

It took me days of reading the posts on 6mmbr.com to fully understand the processes of precision reloading and the ladder test. The time you spend understanding these processes will benefit you in interpreting the results. If you would read that entire thread, you will notice that even the experts submit questions regarding their results. The members on that site have a lot of knowledge, experience and wisdom.
Developing a load is a way of enjoying myself. Tinkering is fun. If I don't know what my gun and ammo are doing, I can't know what my results mean. If my groups are bigger than I want, is it me or the gun? Should I do something different, or am I shooting well, but with a bad load? I want to take the equipment out of the equation as much as possible and see what I can do.

I normally shoot with iron sights and a sling. The gun is fully supported by my body, with just my elbows touching the bench. I want to know what I can shoot unaided (though a sling is a huuuuge help, and I will take it).

I have watched hours of video, on youtube and downloaded DVDs, and read countless posts and articles on reloading for about a year now. I have been reloading only a month less than I've been shooting guns. Developing my rifle load is the next step in developing myself as a shooter.
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Old 01-30-2013, 8:34 PM
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I think nothing less than 200 yards is best for ladder testing. At 100 as noted the differences are very small, sometimes to small to accurately determine things.

I believe a chronograph is very important so you can chart the velocity at which nodes appear. Then later all you need to do is dupe that velocity to find the node. This helps with OAL (jump) testing because again, the node is controlled by velocity and varying OAL varies pressure and therefore velocity which pushes you past the node if you don't adjust charge to keep velocity at the node point.

Having a loading system at the range with you greatly simplifies this process as you can work charge to velocity differences very easily right then and there.
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Old 01-30-2013, 9:07 PM
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Ladder testing needs to be at 400yds or further to really get a good read on it.
We used to do them at 750yds with radios.
Shooter sends a round while spotter is 10yds to the side of the target, down behind a berm.
After each shot, spotter goes over to the target and marks the hole in the cardboard and then signals the shooter to send another round when he is safe behind the berm again.
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Old 01-30-2013, 9:13 PM
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Ladder testing needs to be at 400yds or further to really get a good read on it.
We used to do them at 750yds with radios.
Shooter sends a round while spotter is 10yds to the side of the target, down behind a berm.
After each shot, spotter goes over to the target and marks the hole in the cardboard and then signals the shooter to send another round when he is safe behind the berm again.
Um, yeah, we can't do that at any of the ranges I can easily get to. And I don't know how well I can hold point of aim at 750y.
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Old 01-30-2013, 9:41 PM
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Um, yeah, we can't do that at any of the ranges I can easily get to. And I don't know how well I can hold point of aim at 750y.
Blm land.
Use a 3ft by 4ft sheet of cardboard.
You dial elevation and wind age until your impacts are in the middle of the cardboard while you hold the bottom left edge.
Then use the corner of the sheet of cardboard as the aiming point.
It is really easy to be very precise when aiming at the corner of a large object.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
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Um, yeah, we can't do that at any of the ranges I can easily get to. And I don't know how well I can hold point of aim at 750y.
Still a ladder teat at 100 yds llooks like a shotgun blast and is harder to work with than one at 300 yds. My suggestion is use a while poster board with a 3" target sticker in the middle. Have someone spot for you and chart your shots thru the spotting scope.

Another site had a system where you color the bullets in sequential order with markers, that's where the poster board is helpful. With a 4 color sequence, the colors around the holes should help you find the location of each shots. Your probably not going to want to take more than 5-8 shots between each cease fire, so that you don't want to overheat the barrel and taint the ladders results.

With the colors and the spotters chart, you should be able to identy each shot of the string and mark each during the cease fire. Then return and finish off the rest of the ladder over the next 1 or 2 cease fires.
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Old 01-31-2013, 6:11 AM
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Randall, BLM would be nice, but you know it's quite a drive from Santa Monica. Unless you know of a really close place... But I like the aiming at the corner technique.

TomDw, I saw the colored bullet trick, but I have a great spotting scope and should be able to see and mark them easily from my seat. Sometimes i take a picture with my cell phone through the viewfinder to record the status of the target after a string.
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Old 01-31-2013, 5:17 PM
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Randall, BLM would be nice, but you know it's quite a drive from Santa Monica. Unless you know of a really close place... But I like the aiming at the corner technique.

TomDw, I saw the colored bullet trick, but I have a great spotting scope and should be able to see and mark them easily from my seat. Sometimes i take a picture with my cell phone through the viewfinder to record the status of the target after a string.
I used to drive out to BLM from culver city so I feel your pain...
If you joined desert marksman, that's only about 40 miles and you could take a buddy and do it there during the week.
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Old 01-31-2013, 6:36 PM
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I shot at 200y. Thanks randall for suggesting to aim at the corner of the paper (I used blank 24x36 sheets).

Four sets of string tests showed a blatant small grouping between 43gr and 44.5gr.

Tests at 43, 43.5, 44, and 44.5 with 0 jump .01 jump and .02 jump also showed obvious winners of 44gr and 0.010 jump.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:56 PM
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I shot at 200y. Thanks randall for suggesting to aim at the corner of the paper (I used blank 24x36 sheets).

Four sets of string tests showed a blatant small grouping between 43gr and 44.5gr.

Tests at 43, 43.5, 44, and 44.5 with 0 jump .01 jump and .02 jump also showed obvious winners of 44gr and 0.010 jump.
Now that you did your big steps of 0.5gr, push the cardboards further out to 300 or 400 and do 0.1gr steps within the range you found the big sweet spot.
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Old 02-01-2013, 5:58 AM
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I'll need a better bench rest for that test. Might see you Sunday, aimsmallmisssmall told me about your practice session.
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