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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:03 PM
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I've wanted to say this for a long time, but have held back. No more.

GURA ISNT GOD.

Get that through your head. Gura is a man fighting for our rights. Nothing more, nothing less. People here tend to idolize him and put him up on a pedestal to the point that he's infallible and can do no wrong. Gura fights from a judicial aspect, because that's his specialty. Wayne/NRA fight from the public and private sphere. He is not God either. Does anyone really think that the NRA doesnt share Gura's view that the 2A is a fundamental, civil right? If that's the way that Wayne would have responded, he would have been absolutely TORN apart. There's a time and place for insisting upon our constitutional, GOD GIVEN rights......but his press conference was NOT the place to fight a constitutional crisis on the 2A.

People were looking for answers. "Why did this happen?", "How could this happen?", "What are we going to do about it to prevent it in the future?" That's not the realm that Gura deals with. If Wayne got up there and started spewing how they cant restrict a dang thing because we have our 2A civil rights, he'd look like a blithering moron because 1) It doesnt answer ANY of the "why" questions, 2) It's not helpful in preventing future crazies from going postal, and 3) It would make him look like he didnt care if it happened in the future again. He was giving reasons for the madness, and answers to prevent it. He was speaking to people like you and me.....not to Supreme Court justices.

Gura and LaPierre come from two different sides under the Gun Rights umbrella. For Gura to attack him like that is absolutely NOT helpful. He needs to leave Wayne to his sphere of influence and stick to his own.
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  #42  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:06 PM
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If violent video games & movies are responsible for acts of violence by criminals, then the parents of those criminals should be charged with conspiracy, if they allowed their kids to play or watch those games/movies before the age of 18. That bogus argument is the same that was made about music & immorality since the 1950s.

Belknap & Vance were not murdered because of Judas Priest, only their own stupidity. Start @ 2:15

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  #43  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by aklover_91 View Post
I've absolutely 'flipped' one or two antis in my time, so don't be too sure about that.
Nothing is going to be 100% absolute, but you'll have a hard time convincing me the antis you flipped were at the level of someone like Feinstein. I'm talking hardcore gun control advocates.

As with many polarized issues in our country these days, the independents are the ones that hold the true deciding power. Every effort should be made to win them over if you want to be successful. If they are not on your side, you have an uphill battle every single time.
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  #44  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:07 PM
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Nothing is going to be 100% absolute, but you'll have a hard time convincing me the antis you flipped were at the level of someone like Feinstein. I'm talking hardcore gun control advocates.
Who cares about them? Like any extremists, they don't decide elections.

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Originally Posted by goodlookin1 View Post
Gura and LaPierre come from two different sides under the Gun Rights umbrella. For Gura to attack him like that is absolutely NOT helpful.
It's helpful if you believe he is right and you believe the NRA needs a shake-up.

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Originally Posted by goodlookin1 View Post
He needs to leave Wayne to his sphere of influence and stick to his own.
You mean Gura should stick to fighting for civil rights and La Pierre should stick to fundraising? That's harsh.
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  #45  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:19 PM
aklover_91 aklover_91 is offline
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Nothing is going to be 100% absolute, but you'll have a hard time convincing me the antis you flipped were at the level of someone like Feinstein. I'm talking hardcore gun control advocates.

As with many polarized issues in our country these days, the independents are the ones that hold the true deciding power. Every effort should be made to win them over if you want to be successful. If they are not on your side, you have an uphill battle every single time.
When I was 14, I inherited a shotgun and a .22 from my Great Uncle when he passed.

I was made to keep both of them in a buddies barn an hour away because lord help my mother (who couldn't bring herself to have them trashed because she had a lot of love for her uncle) if a gun were to ever come into her house.

Now, 21 year old trying to work out a plan to make rent so I can leave, have a handgun in my room and a safe at capacity with the guns I've slowly acquired over time.

Also been a few other friends and relations I've worked on with it and succeeded.

The thing to remember, is even though it's unfortunately a minority (larger than a cynic wants to think) of people, there are a lot of folk out there who are 'big' enough to admit when they're wrong. They're ignorant because they've never really thought about or are surrounded by others that they trust who hold that opinion, and so have never had to question it.

All you need to do is be willing to discuss it, be honest when you do, be able to answer questions on the philosophical arguments, and have your evidence in line for the fact based ones.

You'd be shocked how many people are willing to listen if you talk to them about it instead of talking at them about it.
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  #46  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by aklover_91 View Post
Kes, with respect, if we don't want them to play the scape goat knee jerk blame game, we can't either.

To my knowledge, there has yet to be a study that's cited any real kind of correlation between violent games or movies and more aggressive behavior in people.

It hasn't been my personal experience, either.

As a slightly off topic aside, "Killing a hooker so you don't have to pay her AND YOU GET BONUS POINTS" demonstrates a pretty clear disconnect in understanding from how modern games even work compared to older ones.
I am glad you posted your comment. Below is a statement by Dave Grossman, Lt. Col. USA (ret.) who is the author of On Killing, On Combat, Warri...or Mindset, and Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill

"So, the brutal, merciless, savage mass murderer of first-graders in Connecticut was another in a long line of avid video game players who turned their sick fantasy into our tragic reality. Surprised?

I train military and law enforcement nation-wide, on the road almost 300 days a year for 15 years. I was an Army Ranger and a West Point Psych Professor. An author of many very successful books on this subject. This is the perspective that I come from...

Bottom line: From a military and law enforcement perspective, violent video games are "murder simulators" that train kids to kill. They act just like police and military simulators, providing conditioned responses, killing skills, and desensitization, except they are inflicted on children without the discipline of military and police training.

Research on the background of our juvenile mass murderers show they have one thing in common: they ALL dropped out of life and filled their lives with nothing but violent movies and violent video games. The sickest video games and the sickest movies are very very sick indeed. And the sick sick kids who immerse themselves in this "entertainment" are very sick indeed.

Jonesboro in the middle school, Columbine in the high school, Virginia Tech in the college, and now this generation gives us Sandy Hook as adults…

The Sandy Hook massacre has been building for years. And there is much, much worse yet to come. (They are NOT "shootings" they are massacres ... five died in the "Boston Massacre" which touched off the American Revolution … six murdered in the "St. Valentines Day Massacre" … many times more were murdered in Sandy Hook and we hide the reality from ourselves by calling it a "shooting" … "shooting" is what happens on the range … a "shooter" is the guy who got lucky during deer season! These are brutal mass murderers, committing savage massacres unlike anything seen in human history.)

This has all been building up for years. Consider the stats on officers murdered in the line of duty in the US:

'08: 42
'09: 48
'10: 56
'11: 72

Anyone see a pattern here? Medical technology is holding DOWN the murder rate. The number of murdered cops should be going down every year.

These are criminals who practiced killing cops since they were six years old, every day of their lives, playing Grand Theft Auto, and now they are primed to kill cops as adults.

If we intentionally tried to raise a generation cocked and primed to kill, we could not have done a better job.

The answer? Parents MUST enforce the rating system. They MUST understand the danger. To do that, they must be informed by our media! And the schools must begin to educate their kids! Go to www.TakeTheChallengeNow.net to learn about a school TV-turnoff curriculum pioneered by Stanford Med School and demonstrated to cut school violence and bullying in half!

An "M" (mature, 17 and above ONLY) rated game is the same as an "X" rated movie! The people who manufacture the game say so. Their own industry says so! A "T" (teen) rating means no child under 13 should play the game. Period. It is a very tragic, horrendous situation when adults let their children immerse themselves in M rated games! Just like, sex, gambling, porn, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, guns, and automobiles: these are all things that adults must not give to kids!

Not all of the kids who play these sick games will become killers, but they will all be desensitized to human death and suffering, intentionally and realistically inflicted by themselves, for their own entertainment…

If YOUR child is one who commits a brutal crime, and YOU let them play these sick games, then the blood is on your hands too… (And YOU may well be the first one to die, as with this most recent incident.)

This is NOT business as usual in America. Never lose your sense of outrage that every kid in America has to do lock-down drills, practicing "hunkering down and hiding" for when kids come to kill them. Never lose your sense of outrage that all of our cops practice going in our schools and shooting our kids with "active shooter response plans." These things are necessary, they work, they deter violent acts and they can save lives and hold down the body count when it does happen, but they are not normal. This is NOT just another day in America. This is NOT "business as usual" in America… Something is very, very wrong.

And it is a world-wide phenomenon! Germany has had two mass murders in their high schools with body counts that beat Columbine. England had a massacre in the kindergarden class in Dunblain Scotland, tragically forecasting Sandy Hook. Canada had the Taber, Alberta school massacre. Finland has had three school massacres. In Norway the killer got on an island and killed all their kids. In China killers are going in the classrooms with knives and gutting and hacking the kids. In Belgium a sicko got in the day care center and hacked 12 babies in the cribs, dressed as the Joker form the Batman movie. (All those European gun laws made THEM real safe, eh?)

And we though it wouldn't happen here!?

And you think it's over now? The worst is yet to come. We will reap what we sow for a generation to come…. Until we stop teaching our kids to kill."
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  #47  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:28 PM
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Alright, so all the killers played games.

So what? Just about every male in the 18-30 age group does.

These people played violent games.>They massacred people>Games lead to murder

Is the same fallacy as Britain Banned Guns>Gun Crime went down>Crime is lower.

It's a selection bias, and not a useful metric. Can you show me source material that says otherwise, or just Dr. Grossman's opinion on the matter?
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  #48  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
This has all been building up for years. Consider the stats on officers murdered in the line of duty in the US:

'08: 42
'09: 48
'10: 56
'11: 72
Damn, a data set of four years. I know I am asking for trouble arguing against such a compelling avalanche of facts, but I would be very curious to know what those figures were between 1960 and 1970.

I strongly suspect they wouldn't help Lt Col Grossman's argument.
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  #49  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes.

The industry responds to what the market wants and as kids grow up 'stabbing the hooker to death so I don't have to pay her', and getting bonus points for it, they start looking for something 'edgier' because stabbing the hooker is just the norm.
Yes there is more glorification of violence in the form of video games but kids don't take that violence as a role model anymore seriously than our generation took westerns and war movies. I shot a heck of a lot of my friends with a cap gun and they shot me just as much after watching John Wayne kill a hundred or so Apaches or half the Japanese army and none of use turned into antisocial killers . I don't even believe that gangsta rap by itself has much if any effect. What has had a very-very-very serious effect is the drug law fueled and financed explosive growth of gangs and their effect on the culture. The same 'crime is cool because the bad guys have best clothes and cars and the hottest women' attitude we saw during alcohol prohibition but made worse by the 90 year duration and the amount of money involved. That's what's driving inner city violence problem and an inner city culture that embraces violence and the armies of prison hardened 20, 30, 40 somethings pulling their strings.

The other thing that's changed is that we emptied the contents of hundreds of insane asylums on to the streets and I'm not sure what we can do about that without opening a new civil rights can of worms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
It's a mixed bag.

  • Gura is, as usual, right from a civil rights issue (w/accompanying free speech matters - in fact, Leland
    Yee's 'evil games bill' was overturned on those grounds). Consistence of civil rights across the board
    helps all rights - and it helps gunrights falls into that pool of 'must be tolerated' in judicial mindset.
    .
  • Wayne didn't get that wise counsel from staff preparation, perhaps (likely) due to generational issues.
    It would be interesting to see what a top-notch professional external marketing consultant would have
    offered, given they're 'outside' and not in a proverbial 'echo chamber'.

    One looming issue is the 'graying' of NRA membermship. We need to recruit far younger - and this doesn't
    mean just getting nonrenewed gunshow membership.


    Recruiting from the 20-40 age group is esp. harder when you start blaming 'violent' video games many
    perfectly fine people have grown up with: I'd bet 70% of EBR buyers in CA have played Call of Duty, etc.
    - and they're gonna say "Que?" to leadership of an org telling them they're doing 'bad things'.
    .
  • From pure political practicality: it occupied airtime/discussion time and displaced attacks on guns. It gave
    something for politicians to substitute into argument frameworks instead of having to purely 'justify' guns.

    I already notice House members talking about this and these sentiments being echoed by ordinary non-gun
    folks in newspaper comment forums around the country.

    This alone may be useful in spite of the above items. It may have secured the House some.
Very well put!
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  #50  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:43 PM
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I was disappointed by Gura's remarks. Frankly, in all of this, the NRA's suggestion that we put an armed presence in our schools is the only thing that has even a minimum chance of improving the situation. No other offered "solution" will work due to constitutional/social/mechanical reasons. The hilarious thing is that the NRA proposed cops and/or armed civilians. A few days before, Senator Boxer proposed using the National Guard. Yet LaPierre is the crazy one in the room?

So Gura wants to get in front of Cato and bash the NRA. Fine. Just out of curiosity, what are Gura's recommendations for ways to reduce the number of mass murders that we're seeing in gun free zones? Since he's so eager to throw stones, I'm sure he has a stellar proposal that's even better than what LaPierre suggested.
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  #51  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:51 PM
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"This has all been building up for years. Consider the stats on officers murdered in the line of duty in the US:

'08: 42
'09: 48
'10: 56
'11: 72

Anyone see a pattern here?
Wow, all due respect, but this is a very poorly argued citation. Post-hoc ergo propter-hoc, much? No, I don't see a pattern here. Obama's election? Apple switching from PowerPC to Intel? I think that's the one! Let me try that game too:

* 1911 We adopted the 1911

* 1914 World War I begins

I am going to claim that because of the excess of 1911 handguns, Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. I will back this argument with nothing else.

There is simply zero proven causal link here, a weak (r < 0.5) correlation at best with say kids who are already violent becoming more violent.

The article quoted perpetuates the same hysteria as antis do: let's remember, most gun violence is in the ghettos and not in the schools (and certainly not in white suburban schools!), school shootings are tragic but if you *or* the antis want to do something about gun violence, they should attack where the problem is acute *first* and then go from there.

Finally murder and violence rates have actually been falling across the board, in general -- killing of cops, while disgusting, don't represent killing in general. You could also argue that the rate of policing has been increasing, so since more cops are at risk, more cops are killed.

Again, I don't own a tv, don't plan to own one, and I've laid out my rule I'd suggest for letting kids play video games: other than a few non-violent, educational ones, the only other ones you get to play are the ones you write yourself (I've known a few kids who grow up like this, who built adventure/interactive fiction games as a result, that not only taught them programming, but also boosted their verbal fluency and imagination). However, that's my individual choice. I have zero right to impose that on others.

I'm merely arguing to an individual right to play, own, or manufacture video games. This is a red-herring. All it does is make the principled free speech advocates shirk from you and not join foices (when even the legal arguments that are being used here -- due process, what constitutes protected exercise, what does not, etc...) are actually very similar.

I'll say this: if you want free speech advocates who are unfamiliar with guns to err on your side when you argue that "assault weapons" don't constitute dangerous exercise of 2A, you should be willing to err on their side when they say that violent video games don't constitute dangerous exercise of 1A. Stick to principles people, principles. We can't hope to turn unprincipled opponents (the "morally flexible" crowd I deal with that likes to shoot guns, but also wants gun control for everyone else: to whom no right is sacred, just as no other ethical statement is) around, but we can hope to appeal to core love of liberty of the more principled ones.
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  #52  
Old 01-11-2013, 5:58 PM
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When the NRA issued its statement that directed attention to video games and movies, I was disappointed and believed it was an error. Keep in mind, I have never played a video game. After reading Lt. Col. Grossman's book, and listening to him speak, I believe this man has excellent insights into human behavior. Also keep in mind, that I have a strong bias against the mental health profession. When I read, that all of those murderers played video games and that they were all on SSRI drugs, I can't ignore the connections.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:02 PM
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Image is everything. It's an old saying that is taken more to heart today than ever before. In the world of social media, it's at the top of the list.
Wayne LaPierre, to me at least, comes across as kind of an old codger that doesn't feel comfortable in his own skin. It's hard to listen to what it is he is saying, because I keep thinking about other things in regards to his delivery. Gura on the other hand seems calm and confident in his manner and speech, and I find it easier to actually listen to what he has to say. If we are trying to connect with the younger generations, and try and get them to understand what exactly gun rights, and the second amendment are about, then I think we need to find more people like Gura to advance that message. Although people like Alex Jones and Ted Nugent are entertaining and are somewhat high profile, they likely represent another segment of the gun debate that won't advance the cause. We need to find people that come across as level headed and most importantly sane, or we will be shooting ourselves in the foot continuously.
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  #54  
Old 01-11-2013, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
I was disappointed by Gura's remarks. Frankly, in all of this, the NRA's suggestion that we put an armed presence in our schools is the only thing that has even a minimum chance of improving the situation. No other offered "solution" will work due to constitutional/social/mechanical reasons. The hilarious thing is that the NRA proposed cops and/or armed civilians. A few days before, Senator Boxer proposed using the National Guard. Yet LaPierre is the crazy one in the room?

So Gura wants to get in front of Cato and bash the NRA. Fine. Just out of curiosity, what are Gura's recommendations for ways to reduce the number of mass murders that we're seeing in gun free zones? Since he's so eager to throw stones, I'm sure he has a stellar proposal that's even better than what LaPierre suggested.

This is where the dichotomy is and where the concerns are.

Alan's not that interested in 'solutions' nor does he have to be; a civil rights platform acknowledges bad
things can happen under freedom, but freedom is worth the cost. Crime would be way lower if all our
speech were monitored to and from our work camps ;-) The current seats on the Supremes seem to get
this to some extent. And so has the 7th Circuit in Moore v Madigan, etc.

The worry is that a few of WLP's statements might couple back into lower court judicial 'reasoning' ("Omigod
even WLP said it could happen anywhere") and decrease some case velocity here & there.

As far as 'holding Congress', it was probably OK. They're fogies and can change their damnation to somethin'
new-fangled like video games - i.e., WLP gave 'em preloaded talking points and changed the subject from the
yes/no on guns (or gun variants).

As far as NRA recruitment, it was probably substandard, as I said above: 80% of our younger shooters play
Call of Duty on their Xbox and are perfectly nice people. Their reaction will be one of cross-generational
puzzlement if this tack keeps being pushed.

Wholly missing is SSRI meds discussion.
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  #55  
Old 01-11-2013, 6:04 PM
aklover_91 aklover_91 is offline
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Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
When the NRA issued its statement that directed attention to video games and movies, I was disappointed and believed it was an error. Keep in mind, I have never played a video game. After reading Lt. Col. Grossman's book, and listening to him speak, I believe this man has excellent insights into human behavior. Also keep in mind, that I have a strong bias against the mental health profession. When I read, that all of those murderers played video games and that they were all on SSRI drugs, I can't ignore the connections.
That's all very well in good, but ti doesn't answer the question.

What data is he basing his position on, or is it just how he 'thinks' the score is?

I have no problem with people having conflicting opinions, but I don't like it when I can't see the evidence they're using to back them up.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:05 PM
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The NRA's position on video game violence is completely wrong. The majority of games kids play nowdays are actually less likely to make them go on a crazy rampage because of the switch from single player to multiplayer games. Now, instead of games which simulated massacres and very dark and satanic imagery, we have multiplayer games where you have to work as a team mostly with your friends which greatly lightens the mood for most gamers. Add completely ridiculous game physics (like shotgun spread) and you have a hilariously unrealistic world.

I actually like doom and duke nukem, but after a while of playing it, I get tired and sickened of such games. For me it's like clearing my home by myself, I start jumping a shadows.

The Dark Knight was really crazy and had senseless violence but overall movies switched from actually having a story to superhero bambi movies. Basically it involves a superhero who can never be killed. He completely lays waste to the enemies (which are stereotypical "evil people") and walks out in sunglasses trying to be cool. +1 if you band a bunch of superheros together. How is these movies cause shootings?

All people (even gun owners) love to lay blame on things despite the fact that those things have been proven to not cause violence.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:11 PM
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You mean Gura should stick to fighting for civil rights and La Pierre should stick to fundraising? That's harsh.
Even if that's what I didn mean, how is that harsh?

As it is, no that's not what I meant. Gura needs to stick to 2A civil rights focus with the courts, while LaPierre needs to stick to pressuring congress critters to support and uphold 2A civil rights and be the representative for people like us.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
When the NRA issued its statement that directed attention to video games and movies, I was disappointed and believed it was an error. Keep in mind, I have never played a video game. After reading Lt. Col. Grossman's book, and listening to him speak, I believe this man has excellent insights into human behavior. Also keep in mind, that I have a strong bias against the mental health profession. When I read, that all of those murderers played video games and that they were all on SSRI drugs, I can't ignore the connections.
The key thing is, which independent variable here is statistically significant? A huge chunk of the general population of kids plays video games (100% of them also breathe oxygen). A very small portion uses SSRIs, which indicates the SSRIs are the significant variable here. This is actually quite easy to solve, provided NIH keeps data on prevalence of SSRI use.

I'm not generally a fan of the war on drugs (even though I've never had the slightest interest in using them), but I do think that SSRIs especially when prescribed for off-label uses in kids need to be looked at with more caution. I am sure they are very useful drugs to people who need them, but given things like Serotonin syndrome, interactions with street drugs, etc... when physicians dose patients, they be sure the cure is not worse than the decease for those specific patients.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Alan's not that interested in 'solutions' nor does he have to be; a civil rights platform acknowledges bad things can happen under freedom, but freedom is worth the cost. Crime would be way lower if all our speech were monitored to and from our work camps.
Precisely. The biggest problem with this discussion is that it's about trying to prevent lightening from striking.

If you want to live in a free society where people can have guns and play video games and listen to rock music and don't have to worry about being locked away in a mental hospital for making doodles as teenagers, tragedies like Newtown are going to happen. They cannot be stopped. Arming teachers is a dumb idea because, as Gene Hoffman explained a week or two ago, presenting guns as the solution to everything is just as lame as insisting guns cause all the problems.

A lot of folks around here like to say, "Freedom is not free." I am not sure they really recognize what that means. The cost of freedom is the occasional Newtown, the occasional Charles Whitman.

The only places where these things don't happen is in police states.

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Originally Posted by goodlookin1 View Post
Gura needs to stick to 2A civil rights focus with the courts, while LaPierre needs to stick to pressuring congress critters to support and uphold 2A civil rights and be the representative for people like us.
I don't think I am alone when I say I'd rather be represented by Alan Gura, on the evidence of Gura's and La Pierre's response to Newtown.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:12 PM
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Not this Dave Grossman again.

He is NOT the authority on "video game induced violence". Unless I suppose you also believe Brady is the authority on "gun violence". And to save some time, don't bother quoting Jack Thompson either.


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Research on the background of our juvenile mass murderers show they have one thing in common: they ALL dropped out of life and filled their lives with nothing but violent movies and violent video games.
Complete and utter BS. What research? Cite them please. Because as far as I've researched the virginia tech killer was not found to have played any games, despite video games being blamed as soon as the incident happened.

Some people still don't seem to understand these simple forms of causal fallacies. Here are some examples:
-100% of prisoners drank milk when they were young. Thus milk causes you to commit crimes.
-Most of the mass murderers used firearms. Thus guns kill people.

Sometimes I really wish we could mandate critical thinking/logic classes in schools. Because most people seem to be in desperate need of that skill.

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An "M" (mature, 17 and above ONLY) rated game is the same as an "X" rated movie!
I can't even begin to dissect what kind of rhetoric this is. No, an "M" rated game is the the equivalent of a "R" rated movie, and I hope I don't have to elaborate on the "complex" logic behind this. This "Dave Grossman" could've saved himself the embarrassment if he simply googled the exact definition behind the ratings.

You know how pro-gun people like to say, "hey, 80 million gun owners didn't go out and shoot someone today." Guess what? The vast majority of video game players didn't go out and wreck carnage today either. It's amazing to me how pro-gun people can be so incapable of reflecting on their own actions in respect to other liberties. Firearm rights isn't the only liberty that exists, and no one benefits from such myopia.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:14 PM
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re: the violence aspect of video games and movies. I wish people would understand that there's likely a vast difference between how a normal, rational, sane person responds to a culture awash in violence, and how a mentally unstable lunatic might respond to it. Since the truly unstable are relatively rare in our society, the chances of the increase in their violent actions showing up in a statistically meaningful way is low.

At the end of the day, I think the mass gun free zone shootings are a combination of a popular culture that glorifies violence, a video game culture that desensitizes the mentally unstable towards violence, and the proliferation of firearms. Yet I would not change our popular culture, tone down video games, or reduce the availability of firearms. Instead, I think the right answer is to get rid of "come shoot me zones." If that makes me crazy like a LaPierre, so be it.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
When I read, that all of those murderers played video games and that they were all on SSRI drugs, I can't ignore the connections.
And they all had guns! Every single one of them. Charles Whitman didn't immerse himself in video games. Neither, I believe, did James Holmes. But they both had guns.

Randy, do you know what you and Lt Col Grossman are starting to sound like?
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:15 PM
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A more reliable way of detecting emerging signs of craziness is looking at whether the person has friends, whether the person has been bullied, the person's family, and external pressures like schoolwork... etc. These do much more than movies and video games because everybody knows that movies and video games aren't real. But these issues are real. The reason I think games and shootings have been related was during a time when games were single player and thus used by solitary people hiding from the real world.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:17 PM
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There is a ton of research on video games and movies and whether or not they make those who play/watch them more violent.

And none of those studies have proven that kids were more violent because they played video games. In other words, there is ZERO scientific evidence that Call of Duty makes players more violent or susceptible to go postal on their classmates or co-workers.

Are movies and video games more graphic and more violent than they used to be? Sure.

But let's not forget kids in the past were exposed to a lot more real life violence than today's kids. Domestic violence was common and seldom punished or even condemned. Fighting was considered a manly way to settle disputes. People would take kids to hangings and lynchings. Racism, sexism and homophobia were not just common place, they were an accepted norm in most communities.

So let's not reminisce on the good old times here. Violence in video games and movies is a red herring.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:19 PM
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How about the full video be posted instead of just one clip:

http://www.cato.org/events/living-gu...cond-amendment
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Alan's not that interested in 'solutions' nor does he have to be; a civil rights platform acknowledges bad
things can happen under freedom, but freedom is worth the cost. Crime would be way lower if all our
speech were monitored to and from our work camps ;-) The current seats on the Supremes seem to get
this to some extent. And so has the 7th Circuit in Moore v Madigan, etc.
Fine. Still, it would be nice if Gura gave at least some thought to the division he creates in the gun culture when he comes out publicly and loudly swinging against the NRA. If he has criticisms, he should make the quietly, behind closed doors. And WLP should at least listen to him.

Gura has become something of a cultural folk hero to a lot of people in the gun rights movement. He's also becoming something of a gun rights ambassador. He should keep these points in mind when he speaks in public.

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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
The worry is that a few of WLP's statements might couple back into lower court judicial 'reasoning' ("Omigod
even WLP said it could happen anywhere") and decrease some case velocity here & there.
This is the first I've heard that this concern exists.

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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
As far as NRA recruitment, it was probably substandard, as I said above: 80% of our younger shooters play
Call of Duty on their Xbox and are perfectly nice people. Their reaction will be one of cross-generational
puzzlement if this tack keeps being pushed.
What makes you think that WLP made his comments with recruiting anywhere on the radar?

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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Wholly missing is SSRI meds discussion.
Agreed.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:23 PM
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Gura has become something of a cultural folk hero to a lot of people in the gun rights movement. He's also becoming something of a gun rights ambassador. He should keep these points in mind when he speaks in public.
Yep. Gura is trying to make things happen, change people's minds.

Not a single mind in America was changed by La Pierre's statement. The NRA base cheered; NRA skeptics remained skeptical.

And more than a handful of NRA members became skeptics too.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:24 PM
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I'm grateful for BOTH the NRA and Mr. Gura.

Because of the former, I've still got my guns despite a great many politicians who would rather I didn't. Because of the latter, I believe there's a pretty good chance the next generation won't lose their gun rights.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by b_k View Post
How about the full video be posted instead of just one clip:

http://www.cato.org/events/living-gu...cond-amendment
I've ordered the book from Amazon, it gets a good review by Adam Winkler.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:27 PM
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Sadly, that doesn't work as well as it should. A decade ago plenty of Second Amendment supporters were happy to cheer on the Administration as it trampled the Fourth and Sixth Amendments.
That's because, in the end, Second Amendment supporters don't really understand liberty more than anyone else.

Or, at least, they didn't. Maybe they do now. It's not looking like it, though...
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
Yep. Gura is trying to make things happen, change people's minds.

Not a single mind in America was changed by La Pierre's statement. The NRA base cheered; NRA skeptics remained skeptical.

And more than a handful of NRA members became skeptics too.
That sums it up and that's been the problem with the NRA PR lately. They're preaching to the choir. They're flexing their muscles, and they're reminding those who let their membership lapse to renew it.

What we need are people who can talk to those on the fence, or those willing to listen - and there are plenty of those.

We won't win this either by making it political. We need to bridge a cultural gap.
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:38 PM
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Is violence in the media and video games responsible for increased violence in our society? Should we ban violent games? No and no.

Everything is rated for an intended audience. You can't buy a mature rated game or movie if you are not of the proper age. So why do I hear screaming 13 year old children (kicking me ***) on call of duty? Because their parents don't pay any attention to their children. I grew up with video games being a major part of my recreational activities and it continues to be and always will. I wasn't allowed to play grand theft auto or even Tekken when I lived with my mom and pop. Maybe its because I was adopted by a very old couple (65 and 74 at the time).

Simply put, if a child reenacts something they saw on TV, its the parents fault for exposing them to content they don't fully understand. Video games and movies are not anymore to blame than firearms. Society is, spend time with your kids and your community.

And before anyone says it, yes I am a father and my daughter is young. She only needs to see something once or twice to pick it up.

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Old 01-11-2013, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
Below is a statement by Dave Grossman, Lt. Col. USA (ret.) who is the author of On Killing, On Combat, Warri...or Mindset, and Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill
This Dave Grossman quack again? I already de-bunked his arguments in another thread, I'm glad others have already done so here.

Anyone who calls a video game a "murder simulator" has no more credibility than someone who calls an AR owner a "baby killer".
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:52 PM
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Wholly missing is SSRI meds discussion.
Bill, I think you're forgetting a hidden amendment to the constitution: "The Profits of Big Pharma being necessary to election contributions, The Right to Prescribe Paxil to Teenagers shall not be infringed."
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:53 PM
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This is a case of Alan Gura preaching to the converted. While many (though probably not all) gun owners consider gun ownership to be a civil rights issue, it should be obvious to everyone that the Democratic Party, the press, and a large section of the public do not. Or they think that if it is a civil right, it should be curtailed. The NRA was right to conclude that the fear-mongering being stirred up by the Democratic Party and the press ("For the children!!!") must be dealt with head on, hence their proposal for armed guards in schools. One should never underestimate most people's sense of practicality and lack of regard for the constitution. A constitutional or first principles argument is not going to persuade anybody in the grip of "For the children!!!"
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Old 01-11-2013, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
One looming issue is the 'graying' of NRA membermship. We need to recruit far younger - and this doesn't mean just getting nonrenewed gunshow membership.
I was thinking about this the other day. The NRA is definitely effective as it is, but it could be much more effective by not alienating younger people. The same goes for the Republican party, but that's another story.

Personally I think the NRA needs a full makeover. Most people in my generation see the NRA as a bunch of gray bearded old men with evil looking black and gold NRA hats. I even had one young friend ask "is the NRA even relevant anymore?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
80% of our younger shooters play Call of Duty on their Xbox and are perfectly nice people. Their reaction will be one of cross-generational puzzlement if this tack keeps being pushed.
After the NRA address, absolutely nobody on kotaku.com (a very prominent website for gaming news and discussion) was talking positively about the NRA. The whole address could have completely avoided being mentioned on that site, but instead the NRA demonized themselves.


Alan Gura is spot on with his statements. I couldn't have said it better. The libertarians have it right.
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Old 01-11-2013, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post
This Dave Grossman quack again? I already de-bunked his arguments in another thread, I'm glad others have already done so here.

Anyone who calls a video game a "murder simulator" has no more credibility than someone who calls an AR owner a "baby killer".
I would agree with you that there is no evidence that shows violent video game increases violence as a whole for at least 99.9% of the population that plays them.

Is there any research on the effect of violent video games on people who are mentally ill?

Just like we wouldn't give a gun to someone who is unfit, is it wise to have someone who is unfit play violent games or would there be no effect at all?

If there was a correlation, that would bring up 1A restriction question with no way to do anything yet what the Gov is trying to do with guns; ban them all.

Whether 2A or 1A, that is the cost of freedom. The problem is when you have 300 million, small percentages, such as .0001 % of people is still a big enough number
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Old 01-11-2013, 7:30 PM
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Is there any research on the effect of violent video games on people who are mentally ill?
Arguably there is far less justification to not giving a gun to someone who is mentally ill or not letting them join the military (present danger) than it is to denying them their first amendment rights (no present danger). Of course, I'd imagine if a mentally ill person excessively plays a specific game, there are already procedures for his psychiatrist to take action. A blanket ban is silly, though (what if game is therapeutic for them?)

Overall I'm not comfortable on a "war on the mentally ill" either. It's certainly wrong that Rikers Island is currently the biggest mental institution in the country, but we have to remember that they're more likely to be victims of violent crime than its perpetrators. If your goal is to decrease violence, then stigmatizing the mentally ill further than they already are and scaring them away from treatment (especially the people who need treatment the most), will actually increase violence and work against you.
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Old 01-11-2013, 7:40 PM
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The big issue I have is that the video game players ARE the future of the NRA. These guys play the games, then they buy and shoot the same guns in real life. This is a demographic that the NRA just threw under the bus. This would be tantamount to abandoning the hunters or high power rifle competitors.

Not a wise move.

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Old 01-11-2013, 7:41 PM
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The big issue I have is that the video game players ARE the future of the NRA. These guys play the games, then they buy and shoot the same guns in real life. This is a demographic that the NRA just threw under the bus. This would be tantamount to abandoning the hunters or high power rifle competitors.

Not a wise move.

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